FTP and Power Profile Questions



jdrds19

New Member
Feb 19, 2005
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Well, I've had the PT for a couple weeks now and have read a lot of articles and done some tests, but I still have some questions I'm hoping you all can help me with.

Some background:
My max power outdoor tests so far include;
50min 227/243 Pa/Pn moderately hilly standard loop with good motivation
8min 292 Pa ~1.25mi 7+% seated climb
1min 451 Pa best of a series of 1 min tests, this one was standing hillwork
5sec 830 Pa best first 5s of series of 20s sprints

Based on this I set my FTP at 243w, which was maybe a bit optimistic. Using Coggan's percentages for his 7 training levels, the power ranges for each level looked about right. But, my critical power by regression (using the questionably short 1min interval and ignoring the 20s and 5s data) is only 220w with a calculated 1hr power of 226w. The reason I didn't set my FTP lower at this point was it put my IF for some of my ~1hr outdoor test rides into the 1.1+ range, which didn't seem right.

In attempting my first 2x20 on the trainer, I went for 220w to be safe. I was able to complete 2x20 at 225 and 227 Pa without extreme difficulty. The next day, I went for 240w and ended up with 1x20 at 245 Pa and 1x15 at 243 Pa, having to abort the second interval as it was definitely no longer threshold with uncontrolled breathing and power level.

First big question:
What is my FTP?
If it's 240+, I must be a real wimp on the trainer. If it's 230 or less, I don't understand my high Pn values from my outside rides and my demonstrated 8min power being well into Coggan's level 6.


By regression analysis, my AWC is 350+ J/kg, which seems at least average, but my 1 min w/kg puts me way down on the power profile chart. Looking across my power profile I get low cat5 values for 5s & 1min and low cat3 values for 5min and FT. In reality, I'm a skinny-legged 1.8m 67kg midpack cat4.

Is it my low NM power (a known weakness) dragging down my 1min test?
Given that my next race isn't for ~5 months, should I worry about it now?

Sorry for the long post, but any insight would be greatly appreciated.
 
I would say it is 240 or better.

Trainer is difficult to produce power values as high as the road as you do not have any momentum over the top of the pedal stroke.

Try downloading cyclingpeaks software and run the power profile there (once you have loaded in your workouts) and it will pull out your peaks.

Working on NM power...every week if you are a road racer.
 
CP is a good method of establishing FTP but dump the 1 min data. Use a consistent protocol each time and have two good tests, one for say between 5 and 8 mins in duration (pick what works best for you or the course you choose) and another of between 20 and 30 min (again pick what duration works best for you). You can add a 3rd test duration in between the other two (e.g. 10-12 min) but it prob won't change the findings much.

I wouldn't be too fussed about being +/-5 Watts out (or even 10W) with your FTP estimate (while others may want to nail it precisely, I know mine fluctuates through the course of a week, let alone a season, depending on my Training Stress Balance that day), working out at the levels prescribed will still provide the desired adaptations (it's all a contiuum remember), and as you've noticed from 2x20s, you'll quickly find out what you can sustain and have a place to start next time (whether it be on trainer or on road). Also, you don't need to ride right at FTP to improve FTP - you can still achieve good gains by spending time a little under FTP.

Many (including me) report trainers being harder to generate average power for same RPE than being outdoors (and there are many reasons for it) but there are others who generate same or more power. If you have a good set up and stay cool, then you'll probably adapt well after enough practice.

Some use different FTP estimates depending on type of cycling they do (e.g. MTB FTP vs road FTP), or where they train (e.g. at altitude vs sea level) so you may eventually settle on a lower number for the trainer than the road and do your efforts accordingly.
 
Given that you don't have a race for 5 months, I'm not sure it matters much but I think the CP model has it about right. Based on what you said, I doubt that you could maintain a constant power of 240+W for 60 mins even well rested and with high motivation (indoors or outdoors). Maybe 230, but not 243. So, maybe the CP model has your FTP a bit low, but not much. As far as your workouts (which is all you really need to know now), I'd use ~230W for your 2x20s for now. 230W will definitely put you at L4, whether it's a bit above or below FTP doesn't really matter. When you are finishing the 2nd 20 strongly at 230, bump it up by 5W for the 2nd 20 and see what happens. If that goes well, bump up the whole set to 235. Nailing down FTP more precisely at this point doesn't serve much purpose.
 
Thanks for the opinions - Yes, I figured I was splitting hairs a bit on the FTP number, but since it flows into TSS and then the performance manager, I want to use the best estimate I can.

Alex - I tried the CP regression without the 1 min data (using just the 8min and 50min points), but that gives me an even lower CP (215w) and gives me an AWC over 500J/kg! This AWC would seem to disagree with my 1 min test and my general observation of my riding characteristics.

For the next ~8wk I think I have a better handle on planning my L3/L4/L5 workouts. I'm thinking no L6, but include some stomps and standing start sprints for NM and see what happens :)
 
jdrds19 said:
Thanks for the opinions - Yes, I figured I was splitting hairs a bit on the FTP number, but since it flows into TSS and then the performance manager, I want to use the best estimate I can.

Alex - I tried the CP regression without the 1 min data (using just the 8min and 50min points), but that gives me an even lower CP (215w) and gives me an AWC over 500J/kg! This AWC would seem to disagree with my 1 min test and my general observation of my riding characteristics.

For the next ~8wk I think I have a better handle on planning my L3/L4/L5 workouts. I'm thinking no L6, but include some stomps and standing start sprints for NM and see what happens :)
Agree on needing reasonable FTP estimate for TSS and the PMC.

50 min is probably too long. 20-30 min would be better for the longer test. Don't cherry pick data from rides though - you need to have consistency with the protocol used with the test. AWC is typically less precisely determined by the CP model so I wouldn't rely on that as you have seen - but CP / FTP estimate will be fairly reliable. The good thing with this model is that 1 x 6-8 min and 1 x 20-30 min test is not that big a deal in a training week, and can be a great workout in itself and replicated fairly regularly.
 
Alex Simmons said:
Many (including me) report trainers being harder to generate average power for same RPE than being outdoors (and there are many reasons for it) but there are others who generate same or more power. If you have a good set up and stay cool, then you'll probably adapt well after enough practice.
Agreed Alex! So far I have consistently found my RPE indoors to be 1 higher for the same wattage vis-a-vis outdoor riding. Staying cool is of paramount importance and can't be overstated!

Also for the OP, I think NMP should not be a strict limiter for your 1-min power.