FTP much higher than I thought? Help with analyzing intervals for FTP!

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by cshong88, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. cshong88

    cshong88 New Member

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    Hi, I'm a long-time reader but not really a poster. But wanted to finally get some opinions on what my FTP is. I've always thought since last season that it is 220W but I haven't really tested that much recently. I did a ramped test on a Computrainer in january and got something around 220W roughly. I've also climbed Mt. Ascutney in 30:08 which according to analytic cycling.com, at my weight gives me about 240-250W average...I don't know exact numbers since I didn't have my powertap on my bike when I did it.

    Anyways, can you guys analyze this power file and let me know what you think my FTP is? This is from a workout I did that is 6x30" maximal efforts followed by 2' of "recovery" at Z3. I have 210W as my FTP in CyclingPeaks so I tried to keep my "rest intervals" at 170-190W. I felt really good my entire ride today from my 30' warmup to my intervals which were all out and hurt a lot...and a good 30-40 min spin afterwards at tempo pace. This workout was done a trainer...the beginning and last parts of it are riding to and from the building where my team has its indoor training session.

    I'm looking at my NP for 20 minutes and it's really high. Taking the conventional .95x20 min. test gives something like 245W FTP which is much higher than what I originally had as 210W (which I thought might be just slightly underestimating...I was ballparking 220W). Even my 30 minute NP is 243W and my 1 hr NP is 215W which wasn't even an all-out 1 hr effort since that includes a chill Z3ish warmup, 15 worth of the intervals, and then another 20-30 minutes at Z3ish pace. In fact, the riding after the intervals was very chill as well...once I recovered fully from the last one which took a couple minutes, I was spinning fine at Z2-3ish pace for the rest of my trainer session.

    So, is my 220W estimate too low? Any ideas on what my FTP is?

    By the way, I wasn't like super-rested or anything for this interval set. Just did it a day after an easy 2 hr Z1-3 ride and time trial practice 2 days before that. Thanks.

    Power-Tap #1:
    Duration: 1:04:48
    Work: 654 kJ
    TSS: 103.3 (intensity factor 0.98)
    Norm Power: 206
    Distance: 17.849 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 570 169 watts
    Heart Rate: 229 254 238 bpm
    Cadence: 31 138 100 rpm
    Speed: 0 40.7 16.6 mph
    Torque: 0 262 65 lb-in

    Interval 1:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 15 kJ
    TSS: 4.4 (intensity factor 2.289)
    Norm Power: 481
    Distance: 0.311 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 266 570 481 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 106 138 119 rpm
    Speed: 31.4 40.7 37.1 mph
    Torque: 56 113 85 lb-in

    Interval 2:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 14 kJ
    TSS: 3.9 (intensity factor 2.164)
    Norm Power: 454
    Distance: 0.291 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 356 567 454 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 91 126 116 rpm
    Speed: 23.1 37.8 34.7 mph
    Torque: 79 113 87 lb-in

    Interval 3:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 13 kJ
    TSS: 3.4 (intensity factor 2.011)
    Norm Power: 422
    Distance: 0.276 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 369 481 422 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 95 124 117 rpm
    Speed: 25.7 35 32.9 mph
    Torque: 78 104 85 lb-in

    Interval 4:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 12 kJ
    TSS: 3.1 (intensity factor 1.933)
    Norm Power: 406
    Distance: 0.267 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 302 479 406 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 100 131 122 rpm
    Speed: 22.7 34.1 31.8 mph
    Torque: 77 102 84 lb-in

    Interval 5:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 12 kJ
    TSS: 3.2 (intensity factor 1.951)
    Norm Power: 410
    Distance: 0.267 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 340 472 410 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 96 122 114 rpm
    Speed: 23.4 34.3 31.9 mph
    Torque: 76 105 85 lb-in

    Interval 6:
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 12 kJ
    TSS: 2.9 (intensity factor 1.872)
    Norm Power: 393
    Distance: 0.258 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 216 450 393 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 96 128 119 rpm
    Speed: 18.8 33.2 30.6 mph
    Torque: 76 113 85 lb-in

    Entire ride (168w):
    Duration: 1:47:30
    Work: 1080 kJ
    TSS: 153.4 (intensity factor 0.928)
    Norm Power: 195
    Distance: 29.822 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 570 168 watts
    Heart Rate: 9 254 190 bpm
    Cadence: 25 138 103 rpm
    Speed: 0 40.7 16.7 mph
    Torque: 0 262 65 lb-in

    Peak 5s (551w):
    Duration: 0:05
    Work: 3 kJ
    TSS: n/a
    Norm Power: n/a
    Distance: 295 ft
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 530 570 551 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 122 124 124 rpm
    Speed: 39.6 40.7 40.3 mph
    Torque: 86 95 90 lb-in

    Peak 10s (545w):
    Duration: 0:10
    Work: 5 kJ
    TSS: n/a
    Norm Power: n/a
    Distance: 564 ft
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 508 570 545 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 114 138 126 rpm
    Speed: 32.8 40.5 38.2 mph
    Torque: 88 113 95 lb-in

    Peak 20s (521w):
    Duration: 0:20
    Work: 10 kJ
    TSS: n/a
    Norm Power: n/a
    Distance: 0.216 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 447 570 521 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 114 138 123 rpm
    Speed: 32.8 40.7 38.6 mph
    Torque: 80 113 89 lb-in

    Peak 30s (488w):
    Duration: 0:30
    Work: 15 kJ
    TSS: 4.5 (intensity factor 2.325)
    Norm Power: 488
    Distance: 0.31 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 394 570 488 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 99 138 119 rpm
    Speed: 26.2 40.7 36.8 mph
    Torque: 78 113 88 lb-in

    Peak 1min (349w):
    Duration: 1:00
    Work: 21 kJ
    TSS: 6.1 (intensity factor 1.901)
    Norm Power: 399
    Distance: 0.479 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 191 570 349 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 99 138 112 rpm
    Speed: 19.1 40.7 28.5 mph
    Torque: 56 113 79 lb-in

    Peak 2min (277w):
    Duration: 2:01
    Work: 33 kJ
    TSS: 7.6 (intensity factor 1.499)
    Norm Power: 315
    Distance: 0.807 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 191 570 277 watts
    Heart Rate: n/a n/a n/a bpm
    Cadence: 99 138 109 rpm
    Speed: 19.1 40.7 24 mph
    Torque: 56 113 73 lb-in

    Peak 5min (251w):
    Duration: 5:01
    Work: 76 kJ
    TSS: 16.4 (intensity factor 1.401)
    Norm Power: 294
    Distance: 1.883 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 144 570 251 watts
    Heart Rate: 229 233 230 bpm
    Cadence: 91 138 109 rpm
    Speed: 17.3 40.7 22.5 mph
    Torque: 39 113 72 lb-in

    Peak 10min (243w):
    Duration: 10:01
    Work: 146 kJ
    TSS: 30.4 (intensity factor 1.349)
    Norm Power: 283
    Distance: 3.673 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 111 570 243 watts
    Heart Rate: 229 254 238 bpm
    Cadence: 88 138 110 rpm
    Speed: 16.5 40.7 22 mph
    Torque: 30 113 71 lb-in

    Peak 20min (227w):
    Duration: 20:01
    Work: 272 kJ
    TSS: 52 (intensity factor 1.249)
    Norm Power: 262
    Distance: 6.987 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 96 570 227 watts
    Heart Rate: 229 254 238 bpm
    Cadence: 73 138 108 rpm
    Speed: 14.7 40.7 20.9 mph
    Torque: 30 113 70 lb-in

    Peak 30min (211w):
    Duration: 30:04
    Work: 381 kJ
    TSS: 67.1 (intensity factor 1.158)
    Norm Power: 243
    Distance: 9.911 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 570 211 watts
    Heart Rate: 229 254 238 bpm
    Cadence: 64 138 108 rpm
    Speed: 2.3 40.7 19.8 mph
    Torque: 0 113 69 lb-in

    Peak 60min (183w):
    Duration: 1:00:12
    Work: 661 kJ
    TSS: 104.9 (intensity factor 1.024)
    Norm Power: 215
    Distance: 17.771 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 570 183 watts
    Heart Rate: 9 254 207 bpm
    Cadence: 33 138 105 rpm
    Speed: 2.3 40.7 17.8 mph
    Torque: 0 115 66 lb-in
     
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  2. NomadVW

    NomadVW New Member

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    This right here sets off flags for me. 1 hr 47 minutes at IF .93 - MAYBE if it was a 1hr 47 minute TT, you would do it at .93, but not likely for an interval session with rest periods during the session.

    The normalized power for the 20 minutes is high because it's covering the periods of your all out intervals, and that will "skew" the NP upwards. Remember that normalized power is not WHAT you did, but it's HOW your legs will feel like you did. It does not necessarily translate to what you can do "steady state" for that same time period.

    As nothing in this single ride falls within any of the "7 deadly sins" for determining FTP, there's just broad brush stroke information here. I would agree with you though that it's higher than the 210 you have defined right now.
     
  3. otb4evr

    otb4evr New Member

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    Looks like you had a great workout.

    Why don't you do some formal testing with a 5 minute and 20 minute effort and plug it into the critical power spreadsheet?

    You won't have to worry about guessing if your FTP is close, as this does a real good job of estimating your Critical Power.

    [size=-1]www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

    [/size][size=-1]www.velo-fit.com/articles/monod.xls

    Jim
    [/size]
     
  4. woodgab

    woodgab New Member

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    You are going to get a variety of responses since what you did isn't strictly according to the "training with power" protocol. I don't use that protocol and, at the risk of overstating my FTP :) , have always used my best 20minutes multiplied by .95.

    Your Peak 20 min from the power tap shows 227 AP and 262 NP.
    2 Observations:

    1 - 227 AP X .95 = ~215 FTP. The calculation is based on average power, not normalised power.

    2 - Your 35 watt spread between NP and AP is HUGE for a 20 minute FTP test interval. It may be safe to say that if you even things out, you will be able to hold a higher average watts. I would guess NP and AP should be no more than 5-10 watts apart, if you pace well.

    I give people who do the "5 minutes all out" before their 20min interval a lot of credit. I know my average watts would suffer if I cremated myself for 5 minutes before the test. Instead of that, doing 2 X 1min at 120-130% of FTP seems a better way to start, IMO.
     
  5. frenchyge

    frenchyge New Member

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    Nice ride. You're right to question your previous estimate, and should see how repeatable those numbers are through some testing.

    There's very little use in trying to extrapolate from sub-maximal efforts, except for raising a possible flag, as it did for you. :)
     
  6. peterpen

    peterpen New Member

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    The workout you did is a 'NP buster' - I wouldn't pay any specific attention to it in re: adjusting FTP.
    In addition, the .95*20MP method of determining FTP (which some find problematic) typically refers to repeatable average power for intervals (eg 2x20's) not a one-time max NP for 20 minutes.
     
  7. jbvcoaching

    jbvcoaching New Member

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    That's correct. Search this forum as well as the wattage list (@google) for that term, and you'll see that 30s intervals are indeed the recipe to create one of these.
     
  8. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    How do you know? You certainly can't say that just because somebody does 30 s intervals (and only 6 of them at that) that they automatically produce an "NP buster".

    Actually, it *does* refer to a one-time maximal effort, but it is 1) based on average power, not normalized power, and 2) also entails doing an all-out 5 min effort prior to the 20 min TT.
     
  9. peterpen

    peterpen New Member

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    In my experience, rides with 30s "all out" intervals (or courses with repeated ascents of hills between 30 and 60s) produce files with unusually inflated NPs. The OP was attempting to divine his FTP from the NP of such a file, which I think is a mistake. Do you think the ride in question is a good example of the robustness of the normalized power concept?

    I stand corrected on the .95*20MP method of estimating FTP - thanks. In any case, the ride in question wasn't suitable for this method.
     
  10. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    How do you define "unusually inflated", or to put it another way, what is your limit of tolerance? (IME, the normalized power algorithm is usually good to w/in +/- ~5 at ~1 h.)


    Since I don't know his actual functional threshold power nor have I seen a plot of power-vs-time to appreciate what he actually did, I really have no idea. It is interesting to note, however, that despite it being (according to you, anyway) an "NP buster" his normalized power during the hour in which he maintained the highest average power was 215 W, i.e., just below his currently assumed functional threshold power of 220 W.
     
  11. peterpen

    peterpen New Member

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    I'd say anything over 5% at 1h. I've seen 1hr NP's "off" (vs. FTP) by 6-10% on a course with a short, very steep hill. One 47m race on the same course produced a NP 19%> than FTP, but I don't think it's necessarily 'fair' to look at durations under 1 hr when examining the robustness of the NP concept (at least when comparing NP to FTP.)




    Good point. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that NP might not be the best way to examine an effort shorter than 1h in duration and including 30s all out intervals. btw, it might be worth noting that I was not the only poster who described the ride as a NP buster. ;)
     
  12. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Have you sent me that file? If not, would you?

    No, John said that 30 s intervals provided a "recipe" for creating one - or, to put it another way: not every workout that includes intervals of a particular length automatically results in an "NP buster", just as not every "NP buster" is the result of intervals (deliberate or terrain-induced) of a certain length.
     
  13. cshong88

    cshong88 New Member

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  14. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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  15. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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  16. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    They already do. ;)
     
  17. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    The best predictor of performance is performance itself.
     
  18. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    So I'm curious: was that recently, and/or at a time when your fitness was comparable to what it is now?

    I ask because your mean maximal normalized power for 30 min during this workout (which Peter assumed was an "NP buster" simply because it included hard 30 s efforts) was - tada! - 244 W.
     
  19. cshong88

    cshong88 New Member

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  20. whoawhoa

    whoawhoa New Member

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    Shouldn't you be doing some longer threshold-level efforts then?
     
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