FTP test road vs trainer
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More important than relative power to weight for comparison sake would be to know the IF of the particular ride(s) in question. My $0.02CAN worth on the current tangent...
The reason we're riding around on road tires that are 23mm now is that they offered a lower rolling resistance than the 19's that were common up until a few years ago. Back in the day, rims were 19mm in width and matched the 19mm tires. Matching 23mm tires to 19 mm rims is silly. TT tires back then were often as narrow as 18mm. Since the current generation on wider rims have been designed around ~23mm tires, the aerodynamics of the rims have been optimized for that size.
With the problems of using some of the current wide rims in some TT frames, don't expect too many wider rims to come out anytime soon. Given that it took decades to get to such wide rims, another leap of faith may take someone like HED to push the trend again. C3 rims?
I believe that Avocet/NuTrack with the FasGrip tire, showed way back in the mid 80's that wider tires offered better rolling resistance for tires with the same construction but different width.
Quote:
Originally Posted by An old Guy .
I don't think the Gulf coast gets up to 105. The humidity is usually too high for that to happen. My point was that 105 degrees and low humidity may well cool one better than 90 degrees and high humidity.
I sit in front of a 5' wide door and have a 20" fan blowing on me. After 15 minutes I am uncomfortably wet. After 30 minutes my towel is soaked and I am dripping on the floor. But I can last for an hour at modest power outputs.
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I was out riding today. One of the local guys on a Cervelo rode up to me. Lovely bike. Nice and clean. We were both overdressed. I had my windbreaker on. He had arm and leg warmers on. We both had our hands on the hoods. Just riding easy side by side on the flat at 22mph.
If it makes you feel better to think I and the other fellow were riding in the drops, then believe your number of 290w. 250-290w for 8 hours is still impressive.
Average temps in Pascagoula, MS are right at 90F in the summer months. Pascagoula is right on the Gulf of Mexico and often during a couple of the summer months the temps, especially the last couple of years and the heatwave/drought those temps have been exceeded.
As for power, there's more than enough tests out there to show that 290 to 300w is in the the right ballpark for 25mph. If you spend enough time training to achieve that power output then you should be spending alot of the time of that training riding in the drops. You don't see guys riding the 12 hour national championships in England in positions that look very "sit up and beg"... During this years Champs, the winner rode 305 miles at an average speed of 25.4mph. Sure, this was done on an aero bike with all the goodies but he was also in an aero position but it does show that those who want to go fast over a long period of time remember to train to be aero for a long period of time too. That you chose to ride like a "wind catcher" is your choice...
Originally Posted by An old Guy .
I don't think the Gulf coast gets up to 105. The humidity is usually too high for that to happen. My point was that 105 degrees and low humidity may well cool one better than 90 degrees and high humidity.
I sit in front of a 5' wide door and have a 20" fan blowing on me. After 15 minutes I am uncomfortably wet. After 30 minutes my towel is soaked and I am dripping on the floor. But I can last for an hour at modest power outputs.
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I was out riding today. One of the local guys on a Cervelo rode up to me. Lovely bike. Nice and clean. We were both overdressed. I had my windbreaker on. He had arm and leg warmers on. We both had our hands on the hoods. Just riding easy side by side on the flat at 22mph.
If it makes you feel better to think I and the other fellow were riding in the drops, then believe your number of 290w. 250-290w for 8 hours is still impressive.
Average temps in Pascagoula, MS are right at 90F in the summer months. Pascagoula is right on the Gulf of Mexico and often during a couple of the summer months the temps, especially the last couple of years and the heatwave/drought those temps have been exceeded.
As for power, there's more than enough tests out there to show that 290 to 300w is in the the right ballpark for 25mph. If you spend enough time training to achieve that power output then you should be spending alot of the time of that training riding in the drops. You don't see guys riding the 12 hour national championships in England in positions that look very "sit up and beg"... During this years Champs, the winner rode 305 miles at an average speed of 25.4mph. Sure, this was done on an aero bike with all the goodies but he was also in an aero position but it does show that those who want to go fast over a long period of time remember to train to be aero for a long period of time too. That you chose to ride like a "wind catcher" is your choice...
yeah, for sure... for comparing relative effort and prescribing workouts across different riders it's perfect.. 100% agree.. but what you don't get is an idea of actual relative performance between riders.. one guy might be doing 30km/h at 0.9 IF and another might be doing 40km/h at 0.9 IF.. W/kg is far from perfect (and i've said that) but you do get some idea of relative performance..
my main point was that just throwing out a power number is useless when comparing between riders.. you need to know more than that to know what's really happening and to make informed, intelligent advice and judgments... the more you know the better..
I think like doctorspoc. In the world of weightlifting or powerlifting it is much the same. An experienced lifter or coach will often ask the lifter's bodyweight to get an idea of strength. Gives one an idea of who is pound for pound the strongest at an event. It is far more impressive when someone mentions an 800 pound squat and you find out it was a guy that weighed 190 lbs and a little less impressive if you find out he weighed 320 lbs.
By the way.....
At 5'6" and currently weighing 170 lb (77.1 kg) on a lightweight skeletal frame my watts/kg is 2.72.
What does that tell you. It tells you that if I am on your wheel or passing you really need to bump up your training. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
By the way.....
At 5'6" and currently weighing 170 lb (77.1 kg) on a lightweight skeletal frame my watts/kg is 2.72.
What does that tell you. It tells you that if I am on your wheel or passing you really need to bump up your training. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
docSpoc, I ultimately agree with you. W/Kg will tell you how two riders compare to one another. Raw wattage will not indicate performance unless it is on a completely flat surface in a vacuum.
With an FTP of around 240 - 250 watts and at 90kg, I am in pretty much "suckage" territory. My goal is 78 kg which puts me close to an ideal racing weight for my frame build. So, I really need to work on getting that FTP up to 300+ if I want to do really well.
With an FTP of around 240 - 250 watts and at 90kg, I am in pretty much "suckage" territory. My goal is 78 kg which puts me close to an ideal racing weight for my frame build. So, I really need to work on getting that FTP up to 300+ if I want to do really well.
I have been watching the grand tours on the internet for a couple years. I notice that when those guys are doing 25mph on the flat the guy up front is usually not on the drops. I notice that in 5-10 man breaks (over 25mph) the guys are all over the place form wise. All over the place "drafting" wise.
I do believe that some posters on bicycling sites claim to ride at 25mph at power levels below 250w.
Explain to me why I should be uncomfortable in the drops when I can be comfortable on the hoods and accomplish my goal?
Many of the posters on this thread have indicated a goal FTP in watts without giving their weight; without giving a W/kg.
I don't care about W, W/kg, FTP. I catch many people who are stronger then me (W, W/kg, or FTP). I catch many people who are weaker than me. Both stronger and weaker riders catch me. Happens on the flats and on the hills.
If you think you are stong by any measure, ride against 5 or 6 guys who are weaker than you. Let them work together against you and they will outperform you. (Yea, you can design a route where you can beat them. Let them design the route.)
since everyone seems to be baring all.. i guess i'll join in... lol..
after taking two months completely off last winter (family stuff..) i took practically the whole summer ('til August) to build myself back up to some semblance of my former self (FTP of ~235-240.. normal would be 250-260).. still limited time to train.. PAINFUL.. ultimately it felt a lot nicer to be the hurter rather than the hurtee though... lol.. and also to get my weight to a reasonable range.. started at 65kg (143lbs) and by august was around 61kg (134lbs).. from that point i just tried to maintain fitness for a while rather than build and worked on getting my weight down even more and just enjoying riding.. did some building in fall.. that season was wasted and was working towards next season... lowest was around weight was 58kg (127lbs).. weight took a beating during Christmas so I'm at around 60.5kg around now as i start my build for next season FTP in the range of 235-240W.. and when I say FTP i use the power that I'm routinely doing for 20min intervals in training... last years was kind of a false start, a fumble.. then a re-boot.. lol.. I feel in good shape to get my power up to 250-260 range.. and get weight down to 57kg and put in a real season again.. so around 4-4.5W/kg.. to be competitive/a factor in my races.. I ride Masters 1 (Master 40+ in Quebec).. we have performance based categories here in ontario.. sometimes they also throw us in with the Elite 1/2/Pro..) i find i need to at least 4W/kg.. need to be able to climb comfortably (~10mins) around 300W.. with 450W+ surges.. at a weight of at least 57.5kg.. my real racing weight is about 55kg (121lbs).. haven't hit that weight since 2007.. just don't do the kind of volume to get down there anymore.. was a killer year for me.. rarely finished outside of top 5 or 10 in any race I entered.. now i just try to get to a point were i can be a factor maybe a couple top tens.. and that's good enough for me..
You shouldn't be uncomfortable in the drops. Period.
The guys up front doing 25 mph in Pro Tour events can afford to sit up and whistle Dixie - cause for them 25mph on a flat road really isn't eyeballs out. Even on the long one day races like Roubaix, you won't see the guys like Cancellara or Boonen playing sit up and beg... They'll most likely be on the brake hoods with very bent elbows and flat back or in the drops. Fabian has been known, when he's out on his own, to rest his forearms on the bar tops...
On the flat it's about watts/drag - so the guys that can put out the watts and get low have the advantage.
the hoods is actually more aerodynamic than the drops as long as the bars are low enough and you let your forearms sit on the top of the bars because you can still get your body in the same position, but on the hoods, you hands draft your forearms so you have less frontal area.. in the drops your forarms and biceps are exposed to the wind..
here's cancellar soloing in for the [edit]Flanders[edit] win.. is he going to be any more aero in the drops? nope.. all he's going to do is increase his frontal area..
Quote: Originally Posted by An old Guy .
Many of the posters on this thread have indicated a goal FTP in watts without giving their weight; without giving a W/kg.
I don't care about W, W/kg, FTP. I catch many people who are stronger then me (W, W/kg, or FTP). I catch many people who are weaker than me. Both stronger and weaker riders catch me. Happens on the flats and on the hills.
If you think you are stong by any measure, ride against 5 or 6 guys who are weaker than you. Let them work together against you and they will outperform you. (Yea, you can design a route where you can beat them. Let them design the route.)
what does any of this have to do with anything? for sure.. cycling is like a chess game on wheels.. a pawn can take a queen, but if you had to pick which piece to be I'd rather be the queen..
a guy like tom boonen can get has 50 wins in a season and a guy like contador will get maybe 3 or 4 (one of these might be the tour de france though /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif).. boonen and cancellara will be in the running for ToFlanders and Paris Roubaix and Contador will not.. Conador will be in the running for TdF and Cancellara and Boonen will never be..
BUT.. they all want the highest FTP they can achieve, because in any given situations it means they have a better card to play.. they can put out more sustainable power or can be more relaxed and rested in other situation.. looking at W/kg helps us understand WHY that is the case.. why do i suck at TT's, why can't I climb well etc.. if you want to know why these things are the way they are you need to consider these things.. the other factor that separates that distinguishes the the Tom Boonen from the Alberto Contadors of the world is AWC.. that's what gets a Toom boonen over a 1-2km long climb or a cobbled section.. once you understand this stuff it's not a mystery at all why things are the way they are..
if you understand this stuff you understand your strengths and weaknesses.. what you have to work on.. if you're improving.. and what strategies you should employ in races.. just like in any other sport.. in cycling you play your position.. if you're a sprinter, you sit in and suck wheel and show yourself at the end.. if you're a climber.. same thing.. sit in and wait for the hill.. if you're a big TT'r with no AWC at all then you try to blow the race apart... attack in crosswinds etc.. if you're a rouleur you exploit opportunities as they present themselves.. your goal is to get over the line 1st.. cycling is at its core an endurance sport even bunch sprinters have huge aerobic engines and having the highest FTP they can muster while maintaining AWC and NMP is imperative..
but like i said earlier... if it's just you and you want to get better.. you just go out there and ride hard, and then ride harder.. i'm a proponent of that.. i really don't care about FTP to guide my training.. i ride my 20min Theshold intervals at x Watts, three minute intervals at y Watts, 1minute intervals at z Watts.. and the limiter is how hard I can ride them repeatably for the number of repeats i'm doing.. not some artificial, pre-canned number.. it's based on how hard **I** can do them.. but if you want to talk to someone else in comparison about how hard you or they are riding/performing you need to consider W/kg, IF, FTP, weight, AWC, NMP etc... without consider these things you can talk intelligently relatively between different riders...
here's how Cancellar spend most of his time, full tilt, soloing in for a win in Tour of Flanders... if you don't see a modern rider in a similar position.. they aren't doing full tilt sustainable power.. more likely hard tempo..
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/cancellara-no-repeat-of-suisse-success/117996
And you should not be uncomfortable sitting at the front doing 25mph for more than just a few hours. But with your FTP I guess it would be hard on you. (I am old. So it would be hard for me.)
If I could ride at the front doing 25mph with my hands on the hoods, then perhaps it was not eyeballs out for me either.
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If you are riding at some speed in the drops and the guy next to you is sitting up and whistling Dixie, you are probably in way over your head. (I have been on both sides of that one.)
Which is exactly what I said
"Fabian has been known, when he's out on his own, to rest his forearms on the bar tops..."
... with the key part being "out on his own."
If you watch the Flanders video you'll see that Spartacus freely interchanges between hoods and drops where control is required and the forearms on bartops when the going is straight. Changing between the hoods and drops probably to keep the arms and shoulders just that little bit more relaxed - which is why you need to be able to use the drops: more hand positions, especially in a low aero postion, makes for a more relaxed ride.
Given that the drops still stick out at the bottom of the bars when you're on the hoods, there's likely not a whole bunch of difference between flat back and bent elbows on the hoods and the same back position on the drops.
Maybe folks like Andy Coggan, Robert Chung or Simmo could chime in on that last comment with some real world data. Personally, I don't see a big difference of the power tap as long as my body stays put.
But the drops still offer the best position for braking and gear changing - which is why when it's money time and there's a bunch, that's where nearly every rider will be.
Back to a different subject.....
You crack me up. You are more or less doing what I am doing. Like I said way back there. I think we are doing the same thing, just using slightly different methods. I do feel my method is a little better, of course. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif If you take your FTP by doing an hour TT and then do 20 minute intervals at 85 to 90% of that, you are in the 'sweet spot' and stressing the system perfectly to raise your FTP higher. I say perfectly because research shows that this is the area that does the most to increase your FTP without causing too much subsequent fatigue. This just means you can do more of them. What you are doing is an all-out 20 minute interval at the max you can sustain for that period. This too raises FTP, but if you did at a little lower intensity, you may be able to do more intervals and consequently increase your FTP further. There is a time and place for full all out threshold and VO2 intervals - just not every time. As, I get 8 weeks out from an A priority event, I will start to do full threshold and VO2 - or, maybe longer SS intervals.
I know your response......85 to 90% is a canned value. And, you would be right in saying that. But, it's the best number we can come up with.
85% of your FTP for 20 minute intervals is a warm up...
... that's 120 minute pace - not 20 minute.
... that's 120 minute pace - not 20 minute.
i don't do all out 20mins intervals all the time.. never said that..
and basically we are doing the same thing.. if you remember WAY back.. the very 1st point I made was that it not necessary to formal testing to determine FTP because your FTP is approximately the power you routinely do long intervals under training load.. my secondary point(s) was that using pre-canned zones can be inaccurate.. not so much for the threshold because that's what you've actually tested formally and that zone is sufficiently wide that it really doesn't matter that much.. but really for zones 5 and 6.. and this is because AWC can vary a lot among riders... but again, this other stuff is secondary.. my main point was that formal testing is not necessary.. and that's if you uses pre-canned zones or not..
and to my point... i thought the fact that the guy that came up with the zones doesn't recommend your method might have been convincing but some heads are harder than others... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I'm pretty hard-headed. Ask my wife! I don't think he said he doesn't recommend it. He said the zones were a 'reasonable estimate'. You may be talking about a different post in this thread. I was looking at a specific one. If I missed the correct one, please let me know.
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