FTP to 5MMP Ratio

[numminummi]

Hi!

I remember having read some guys arguing that the ratio of FTP to 5MMP indicate whether one should be working SST/L4 or VO2MAX.

I know there is not any cut-in-stone answer to this, but do some of you have a rule of thump?

Thanks!

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by numminummi .

but do some of you have a rule of thump?

Thanks!

Yeah, don't put your thumb inside your fist when you thump someone. If you make good contact you might hurt them but you'll likely do your thumb in at the same time...

Of the top of my head, my 5 minute values are around 20% more than my FTP. Then again I haven't put in any concerted short interval training blocks or lots of racing this past few years so yours may be a little higher than this...

 

[bubsy]

It's going to vary between individuals so with a few years data you'll get a better understanding of your own power profile,
There is a great tool that was developed by Hunter I think that you may find useful, just google fatigue profiling training peaks.

With that said my ratio has varied alot over the years and right now my 5MMP is 131% of FTP but that is more likely to do with a highly developed AWC rather than a high VO2 or low FTP.
Play around with that fatigue profiling tool it's alot of fun.

 

[lanierb]

I don't know the rule for FTP/5MP, but as I remember FTP/MAP is supposed to be in the 72-77% range. The general rule is that if you are at the high end of that you would be more helped by VO2MAX work, whereas if you are at the low end then more submaximal work (eg SST or FTP work) is called for. I'm not sure if anyone has ever studied this experimentally though.

Going into WAG territory I'm thinking that 5MP tends to be about 90% of MAP, so that would give FTP/5MP of about 80-86% as the norm. Presumably a similar rule of thumb holds there. I.e., if you're at 80% or less you should be working on SST and if you're at >86% you should be working on VO2MAX.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by lanierb .

I don't know the rule for FTP/5MP, but as I remember FTP/MAP is supposed to be in the 72-77% range. The general rule is that if you are at the high end of that you would be more helped by VO2MAX work, whereas if you are at the low end then more submaximal work (eg SST or FTP work) is called for. I'm not sure if anyone has ever studied this experimentally though.

Going into WAG territory I'm thinking that 5MP tends to be about 90% of MAP, so that would give FTP/5MP of about 80-86% as the norm. Presumably a similar rule of thumb holds there. I.e., if you're at 80% or less you should be working on SST and if you're at >86% you should be working on VO2MAX.

MAP is short for?

 

[bubsy]

Maximal aerobic power

 

[acoggan]

If your functional threshold power is more than a few rows above your 5 min power on the power profiling charts, then you have probably pushed it as high as you can w/o increasing your VO2max.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by acoggan .

If your functional threshold power is more than a few rows above your 5 min power on the power profiling charts, then you have probably pushed it as high as you can w/o increasing your VO2max.

My 5 min power is 4 rows higher. Does that mean I should stop VO2Max intervals and do L4 instead?

 

[cheetahmk7]

Originally Posted by numminummi .



My 5 min power is 4 rows higher. Does that mean I should stop VO2Max intervals and do L4 instead?

My 5 min power is 7 rows higher and my FTP/MAP ratio is 65%. I wonder what would happen if I started doing VO2max intervals?

 

[acoggan]

Originally Posted by numminummi .



My 5 min power is 4 rows higher. Does that mean I should stop VO2Max intervals and do L4 instead?

I would answer "it depends" - specifically, on 1) the demands of your goal event(s), and 2) precisely why your 5 min power is high relative to your functional threshold power.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by acoggan .



I would answer "it depends" - specifically, on 1) the demands of your goal event(s), and 2) precisely why your 5 min power is high relative to your functional threshold power.

1) The goal events are road races of app. 130 km. Last season only one came to a bunch sprint. Often a break will form from small groups (1-3) taking of the front. Breaking away requires very high effort, so high L6/L7 comes pretty handy there. Then again a high FTP is needed to keep the break going and to finish strong for the sprint.

Last year I made it into a lot of break-aways but when it came to the finish I was very fatigued, and often got beaten by guys with a MUCH lower sprinting ability than mine (from a rested state at least /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

If of interest my numbers are:

77 kgs
5 sec - 1400 watts
35 sec - 750 watts (closest all out effort to 1 min)
5 min - 412 watts
FTP - 320 watts


2) The why could be that I'm new to the sport. I have been cycling 1,5 yrs. Before that I have been playing badminton and handball which is more tilted toward VO2MAX efforts than threshold/endurance.

 

[swampy1970]

You may find that a good sustained bit of L5 might be more important for legging it off the front after you've done the initial kick. Often it's not just a case of how high are your numbers but how often can you repeat something similar many times.

At 35seconds you're just ready to what I like to call "the death zone" - try keeping that 750 watts going for another 15 seconds If I do a flat out effort and see how long into a minute I can go for I typically 'die a thousand deaths' just under 40 seconds.

Remember that feeling the next time you watch a Kilometer TT on the track and you see someone start too hard - it's hard not to feel sympathy pains for that rider.

 

[numminummi]

You may find that a good sustained bit of L5 might be more important for legging it off the front after you've done the initial kick. Often it's not just a case of how high are your numbers but how often can you repeat something similar many times.
At 35seconds you're just ready to what I like to call "the death zone" - try keeping that 750 watts going for another 15 seconds If I do a flat out effort and see how long into a minute I can go for I typically 'die a thousand deaths' just under 40 seconds.
Remember that feeling the next time you watch a Kilometer TT on the track and you see someone start too hard - it's hard not to feel sympathy pains for that rider.

Sorry swampy. I meant L5/L6 and not L6/L7 - so we agree

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by numminummi .



1) The goal events are road races of app. 130 km. Last season only one came to a bunch sprint. Often a break will form from small groups (1-3) taking of the front. Breaking away requires very high effort, so high L6/L7 comes pretty handy there. Then again a high FTP is needed to keep the break going and to finish strong for the sprint.

Last year I made it into a lot of break-aways but when it came to the finish I was very fatigued, and often got beaten by guys with a MUCH lower sprinting ability than mine (from a rested state at least /img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

If of interest my numbers are:

77 kgs
5 sec - 1400 watts
35 sec - 750 watts (closest all out effort to 1 min)
5 min - 412 watts
FTP - 320 watts


2) The why could be that I'm new to the sport. I have been cycling 1,5 yrs. Before that I have been playing badminton and handball which is more tilted toward VO2MAX efforts than threshold/endurance.

You are taking guys who are stronger/faster than you to the line. Poor way to contest a sprint. Come up with a better race plan.

Part of your problem is that you give power numbers that are fantasy. You need to have a sense of your numbers toward the end of a 3-4 hour event not when you are well rested. Do a hard 3 hour ride and then do your 5sec, 1min, and 5 min tests.

Part of your problem is that sometimes the choice in a race is finishing last in a small group or last in a large group. Even when you are the strongest in a break, you don't always get a choice of placing first.

 

[Felt_Rider]

nummi, do you get the feeling of being trolled by the village idiot?

 

[tonyzackery]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


You need to have a sense of your numbers toward the end of a 3-4 hour event not when you are well rested. Do a hard 3 hour ride and then do your 5sec, 1min, and 5 min tests.

Notarized.

OP, if the neuro/anaerobic numbers at the end of a ride comparable to your expected race are very poor in relation to your 'fresh' numbers, then you know you've got to work on increasing your aerobic development by deepening your aerobic base - meaning lots of L2, 3, 4. Getting to the finale (the point in the race where you can play your strength - be it a 5min attack/breakaway, or the final sprint) as fresh as possible is the ultimate goal of most any racer, and I work on this aspect year round.

AOG - I can appreciate your bringing to the table an alternate way of looking at a solution to a problem. You probably failed a Tactful Communication course or two while in school, but if a person is capable of understanding that that is your personal issue to deal with and not a reflection on them personally, then (IMO) you have plenty to offer to many of the discussions you enter into on this forum.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .



Part of your problem is that you give power numbers that are fantasy. You need to have a sense of your numbers toward the end of a 3-4 hour event not when you are well rested. Do a hard 3 hour ride and then do your 5sec, 1min, and 5 min tests.

Properly a good way to look at it! I will find out on sat when the first race of the season takes place.

 

[lanierb]

Hey nummi- what's your CTL? If you're getting thrashed at the end of a long road race you might just need a higher training load. A higher training load is also likely to address your FTP/5MP issue.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by lanierb .

Hey nummi- what's your CTL? If you're getting thrashed at the end of a long road race you might just need a higher training load. A higher training load is also likely to address your FTP/5MP issue.

it's at 104 after 5 days rest off the bike

 

[cheetahmk7]

Originally Posted by numminummi .



it's at 104 after 5 days rest off the bike

Have you had a similar 5 minute to FTP ratio when your CTL has been lower?