FTP to 5MMP Ratio
- Thread starter numminummi
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For me low CTL appears to reduce the difference between my 5 minute and FTP - my FTP drops less than my 5minute so the ratio changes to a higher %age of 5 minute at FTP. At my best last year with a CTL over 125 I had a 440+ 5 minute (440 for 5:40 on my top test condition hill, would've been a few more presumably if I could've just done a 5 minute test) against an FTP around 336. However with my CTL dropped to around 100 it went to around 330 / 410 and then with a CTL around 50 it dropped to 310/375. CTL is now back to 100, no testing (and as I ramped 50-100 in just over 5 weeks it's difficult to conclude that much as it could be significant fatigue etc.) but I would guess from general riding and past data it would be around 325-330 FTP and 410 - so pretty much exactly tracking my CTL experience before.
My 5second is a bit less than yours, my 30 second higher, and I can sprint from a small group, but never from a large group as my 1 minute is low (not that low, but flattered by high relative 20second which isn't actually that good as unless I go very early in a sprint I don't get to use the NP at the end of the hard race.)
For me, if I avoid doing 5 minute / VO2max work, my VO2max drops and my FTP barely changes, if I do both VO2max and FTP then FTP goes up, and 5 minute changes very little once it gets up above the 430 mark. I've concluded that at least some VO2max training is always required for me to raise FTP.
My 5second is a bit less than yours, my 30 second higher, and I can sprint from a small group, but never from a large group as my 1 minute is low (not that low, but flattered by high relative 20second which isn't actually that good as unless I go very early in a sprint I don't get to use the NP at the end of the hard race.)
For me, if I avoid doing 5 minute / VO2max work, my VO2max drops and my FTP barely changes, if I do both VO2max and FTP then FTP goes up, and 5 minute changes very little once it gets up above the 430 mark. I've concluded that at least some VO2max training is always required for me to raise FTP.
I for one haven't noticed any significant FTP gains from doing Sweet Spot Training. Have others with high 5min to FTP ratio riders also experienced this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 .
I for one haven't noticed any significant FTP gains from doing Sweet Spot Training. Have others with high 5min to FTP ratio riders also experienced this?
For me "sweet spot" in terms of the amount of training I can comfortably do for a session is an NP of around 90% of threshold for many hours, with the solid on intervals in that time in the 10-20 minute region of around 90-95% of threshold average power, and climbs done at close to 5 minute power or a little less on subsequent hills. For me, those are the sweet spots in terms of maximum adaptation for minimum stress (they're essentially all out PE terms and I can do them with all the time I have) They are higher than most other people appear to describe sweet spot certainly.
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 .
I for one haven't noticed any significant FTP gains from doing Sweet Spot Training. Have others with high 5min to FTP ratio riders also experienced this?
For me "sweet spot" in terms of the amount of training I can comfortably do for a session is an NP of around 90% of threshold for many hours, with the solid on intervals in that time in the 10-20 minute region of around 90-95% of threshold average power, and climbs done at close to 5 minute power or a little less on subsequent hills. For me, those are the sweet spots in terms of maximum adaptation for minimum stress (they're essentially all out PE terms and I can do them with all the time I have) They are higher than most other people appear to describe sweet spot certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 .
I for one haven't noticed any significant FTP gains from doing Sweet Spot Training. Have others with high 5min to FTP ratio riders also experienced this?
SST definitely works for me, and my FTP/MAP has been never been above 72%. Maybe you're not structuring your training well. (Note: by SST I mean long intervals at around 90% of *true* FTP, i.e., not a number you can hit every day or when you're tired but a number you hit in a race when fresh and maximally motivated.)
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 .
I for one haven't noticed any significant FTP gains from doing Sweet Spot Training. Have others with high 5min to FTP ratio riders also experienced this?
SST definitely works for me, and my FTP/MAP has been never been above 72%. Maybe you're not structuring your training well. (Note: by SST I mean long intervals at around 90% of *true* FTP, i.e., not a number you can hit every day or when you're tired but a number you hit in a race when fresh and maximally motivated.)
How long did it take for you to be able to build up to say 90 minutes at 90% of FTP?
I'd have to be awfully fresh to be able to do that and if I could do it, it would suggest to me that it's probably time to restest my FTP as it is prbably being underestimated. So in the mean time I either do around 30 to 45 minutes at 90% of FTP or around 90 minutes at 80% of FTP. I find these sessions extremely tiring and gains in FTP come very slowly, although they definitely make riding at sub FTP levels easier.
2011
5ec 1036
1min 568
5 min 376
20 min 325
30 min 292
60 min 281
MAP 430
Weight 70 kg
I'd have to be awfully fresh to be able to do that and if I could do it, it would suggest to me that it's probably time to restest my FTP as it is prbably being underestimated. So in the mean time I either do around 30 to 45 minutes at 90% of FTP or around 90 minutes at 80% of FTP. I find these sessions extremely tiring and gains in FTP come very slowly, although they definitely make riding at sub FTP levels easier.
2011
5ec 1036
1min 568
5 min 376
20 min 325
30 min 292
60 min 281
MAP 430
Weight 70 kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 . How long did it take for you to be able to build up to say 90 minutes at 90% of FTP?
The 2nd or 3rd ride of attempting it. As in a reasonably motivated (limited time to be out, competition over the time for the 65km loop, but no actual race or anything) ride I'd adapt to that 90% AP within a couple of rides, that's on a ~2 hour effort with 3 hills in two of them steep enough that I need to climb them at over FTP to ensure I have the gearing (but short) So with an FTP of 335, I could do 300 AP after a couple of rides, a few more efforts would get me up to ~310 which was the highest I saw. My first effort of the year this year I managed 280 on a maybe 320-325 FTP (My first child's arrived, and I took january off leaving me quite a bit less fit) although I was caught up in traffic quite a bit for that too.
I'm sure ratios of 2hour to FTP differs amoung people do, my 1minute power is relatively low (670 at 76kg is not that low, but compared to 30sec 1000w contribution from the Neuromuscular Power that you don't get to leak out over an FTP interval it)
Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 . How long did it take for you to be able to build up to say 90 minutes at 90% of FTP?
The 2nd or 3rd ride of attempting it. As in a reasonably motivated (limited time to be out, competition over the time for the 65km loop, but no actual race or anything) ride I'd adapt to that 90% AP within a couple of rides, that's on a ~2 hour effort with 3 hills in two of them steep enough that I need to climb them at over FTP to ensure I have the gearing (but short) So with an FTP of 335, I could do 300 AP after a couple of rides, a few more efforts would get me up to ~310 which was the highest I saw. My first effort of the year this year I managed 280 on a maybe 320-325 FTP (My first child's arrived, and I took january off leaving me quite a bit less fit) although I was caught up in traffic quite a bit for that too.
I'm sure ratios of 2hour to FTP differs amoung people do, my 1minute power is relatively low (670 at 76kg is not that low, but compared to 30sec 1000w contribution from the Neuromuscular Power that you don't get to leak out over an FTP interval it)
I'm probably a good person to answer this. If you had asked me at the beginning of last summer if I could do 90 minutes at 90% of FTP I would have said no way I could ever do it. Frankly, where my coach had my FTP set, I would have told you I couldn't do 1hr at 90% either. In fact when he set my FTP initially I emailed him and said exactly that because I thought he had it too high. Fast forward to the end of last summer and I'm regularly doing 90-105 minutes at 90% (and can still do that now). Over this period my FTP went up at least 30 watts and was constantly monitored (through races and testing).
For me, there's no way I could have gotten there in a couple of workouts. The way I got there was structured training with a coach that had a lot of endurance (tempo) work and some other stuff mixed in. Most importantly, I did one SST workout per week, starting with 30 mins at 90% (followed by 60-90 mins of L3), then increasing the SST portion by 15 mins every week eventually getting to 105 mins of SST. This workout was typically the third day in a row of a series that went basically Hard/Easy/Hard, (where easy is about 70%), so I was not totally rested for it but I was "warm", which I think helped actually. Over the first few weeks these were the hardest workout of my week. I was never sure I would be able to finish until the moment the interval was over. I had to drink some caffeine and get mentally psyched up etc in order to finish them. Eventually they became easier. Increasing from 75 to 90 mins was WAY easier than increasing from 30 to 45 or 45 to 60, even though I was increasing the wattage as well over time due to my FTP going up.
If one is going to believe in math and modeling:
Based upon the estimate of FTP (1 hour power) being 90-95% of 20 minute power output and 1 hour being 3 times 20 minutes. Since 3 hours is 3 times 1 hour, 3 hour power should be 90-95% of FTP (1 hour power).
So 90% of FTP for 3 hours and change is reasonable.
But 100 miles requires more careful food and hydration.
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As to how long it takes to build up to 90 minutes at 90% of FTP: It takes different training. If you want to be as comfortable doing 90 minutes at 90% FTP as you are doing 90% for 60 minutes, you need to train 50% harder/longer.
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