Fuji Touring vs. Bianchi Volpe



In article <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
you know? <[email protected]> wrote:

> I submit that on or about Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:35:14 -0500, the person
> known to the court as "Pat" <[email protected]> made a statement
> (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
> following effect:
>
> >Well, of course the derailleur hanger on your aluminum bike is steel. My
> >point is that if you are cycling through a sparsely populated place, there
> >won't be a local bike shop just floating with replacement derailleur hangers
> >for you.


Welcome to the power of the internet..

This place carries any hangers you want -- http://derailleurhanger.com/
and they ship QUICK to 25 countries in the world..

You know, This is the 21st century with a global economy that is very
well connected -- online and of course shipping wise!! DHL, Fedex and
UPS can deliver to any pocket of the world you so wish..

But if you travel globally, every globe trotter I had met ALWAYS carry
2 spare derailleur hangers plus 1 cheap rear derailleur (usually Deore
or Acera SGS). If used, simply log online and order from any online
LBS in the states, have it DHLed or Fedex the next day.

David.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Pat <[email protected]>
wrote:

> : > bent derailleur hanger. If he was in the middle of ...fill in the
> : >blank...would they have another derailleur hanger for an aluminum bike?
> On
> : >my steel bike, the LBS guys just bent it back out.
> :
> : The "LBS guys" simply replaced my daughter's hanger when that
> : happened. If you gotta take it to a shop, aren't they the ones likely
> : to have access to a replacement hanger?
> :
> : Pat
>
> You are thinking of this happening in a big city in the US. The OP was
> talking about touring. So, think of this happening in, say, Croatia or a
> small town in Italy or near a small town in Russia.
>
> Pat in TX
>
>


Then http://www.derailleurhanger.com. This actually came from one of
the world tourers who actually do real tours. They ship to 25
countries..

David.
 
In article <[email protected]>, SMS
<[email protected]> wrote:

> rdclark wrote:
>
> > No. Quoting the OP: "Thank you - I will surely be using panniers on
> > this bike maybe 75% of the time, essentially every time I commute. This
> > will be a commuting bike."

>
> Okay, sorry. I saw "touring" and for touring, alarm bells go off anytime
> anyone thinks about AL for touring. Even Trek has kept their one touring
> bicycle as chromolloy, and most true touring bicycles are still steel
> (Fuji Tour, Koga-Miyata Randonneur, Bruce Gordon).


Ok.. Let's not confuse the Koga-Miyata Randonneur as a true touring
bike. Koga never said that -- it's a versatile travel bike only.
Their Global Traveller and their World Traveller are actually touring
bikes and most European tourers I met ride one or the either. Most
equipe themselves with a Rohloff rear internal hub and a Schmidt dynamo
hub front as standard. With a Rohloff rear hub -- you take out the
worries of having a rear derailleur or a rear hanger bending!!
Europeans don't worry about this -- goes to show how North Americans
are still a little bit backward on this department by the way -- still
thinking XT rear hub as the best.
And if you worry they don't have enough low gears to climb steep hills
-- they do.

Regardless of bikes, a large percentage of global tourers tour on
aluminium touring bikes -- it's a must! Steel frames, place under the
most wettest and dampness place in the world for months, will rust from
the inside out. I have seen it myself and it's not nice.. No amount
of touch paint and any spray will help stop it.. Don't bother with
DHLing and Fedexing a new steel frame -- it'll just rust again. But
you know, most of us North Americans do bike camping tours in the best
months of the year, not year round so steel bikes are ok..

David.
 
I submit that on or about Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:28:54 +0000 (UTC), the
person known to the court as Booker C. Bense
<[email protected]> made a
statement (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle)
to the following effect:

>_ There was a poll on the phred list of bicycle tourists and one
>of the questions was what failures have actually occurred to you
>while touring. A frame failure of some kind was much more common
>than every body expected.


It's all those weak steel frames they ride :)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
David wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
> you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I submit that on or about Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:35:14 -0500, the person
>>known to the court as "Pat" <[email protected]> made a statement
>>(<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
>>following effect:
>>
>>
>>>Well, of course the derailleur hanger on your aluminum bike is steel. My
>>>point is that if you are cycling through a sparsely populated place, there
>>>won't be a local bike shop just floating with replacement derailleur hangers
>>>for you.

>
>
> Welcome to the power of the internet..
>
> This place carries any hangers you want -- http://derailleurhanger.com/
> and they ship QUICK to 25 countries in the world..


25 countries isn't that many, probably just the major ones. Tours
however don't always happen in major countries.......

> You know, This is the 21st century with a global economy that is very
> well connected -- online and of course shipping wise!! DHL, Fedex and
> UPS can deliver to any pocket of the world you so wish..


Sure, they can send anything anywhere, and do it in a short period of
time, however watch the cost, it can cost over $200 and still take 5
business days to ship to some countries..... Then add local customs
charges, and brokerage fees, and a $10 hanger turns into a $350 hanger.....

This can end a tour pretty quickly....

W
 
I submit that on or about Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:29:54 -0500, the person
known to the court as Reid Priedhorsky <[email protected]> made a
statement (<[email protected]> in Your
Honour's bundle) to the following effect:

>Steel frames aren't any heavier than aluminum.


Your irony detector is switched off.

>Also, do you have a reference on the test you refer to? I recall reading
>about a frame test with such a result (steel broke sooner) that turned out
>to have methodology flaws rendering the results useless.


Scharf has made a dogmatic assertion, no doubt some time soon he will
get around to posting some hard evidence to back it up[1].

However, http://www.damonrinard.com/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm was
the test I vaguely recalled. Scharf denounces it, but then he
denounces as flawed or worthless every study which does not agree with
him, so I have to go by the views of those I trust - most of whom seem
to think the idea of steel frames being more prone to failure is
largely folklore, but with some basis in the experimental days of the
art. Whether the paper is flawed or not is largely irrelevant, there
being no studies to my knowledge showing the opposite.

I do know a few tourists who claim to have broken (steel) frames; I
also know one man whose (steel) front fork failed catastrophically,
and another who, I have recently heard, had a (steel) chainstay break
in half. I have myself broken two aluminium frames, but they were
recumbent frames and the failure was the result of a design or
manufacturing flaw
<url:http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/The_Stinger_Stung>.
I have never broken a diamond frame, steel or aluminium, despite
handing out some serious abuse to my bikes.

I have also learned to be wary of what "everybody knows" and tend to
like to see some actual proof; in this case it is conspicuously
absent. The Great One also appears sceptical on the alleged magical
properties of frame materials, and I am not going to disagree:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

[1] This is irony too

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
The Wogster wrote:

> Sure, they can send anything anywhere, and do it in a short period of
> time, however watch the cost, it can cost over $200 and still take 5
> business days to ship to some countries..... Then add local customs
> charges, and brokerage fees, and a $10 hanger turns into a $350 hanger.....
>
> This can end a tour pretty quickly....


I've ridden in parts of Russia where it wouldn't have mattered how much
money you had. Basically the Russian cyclists get their parts from
Finland, but it's not a quick process. I brought a large number of spare
parts with me, and was fortunate that my own bicycle didn't need them,
but gave some to others that would have essentially had to end the ride
if they had had to send for parts.

So while the DHL/FedEx schtick is interesting, it really doesn't apply
in many situations.
 

>
> Sure, they can send anything anywhere, and do it in a short period of
> time, however watch the cost, it can cost over $200 and still take 5
> business days to ship to some countries..... Then add local customs
> charges, and brokerage fees, and a $10 hanger turns into a $350 hanger.....
>
> This can end a tour pretty quickly....
>
> W


Based on my personal observation, most people who tour globally are
usually equipped with most of the needed tools and parts to keep the
bike going. And that means, carrying 2 spare hangers and a derailleur
as they don't hog a lot of space or weight.

I had met and helped people who "DON'T" carry any parts and tools to
service their bikes. In fact, I was their "local bike shop" and they
have touring bikes that can easily cost 3 to 4 times of that of mine
and brand names many here mentioned. Also remember, some less
fortunate countries may not have the mechanical competency of working
on your expensive gear, since what's considered normal to have in North
America may be considered a luxury to have not in poorer countries.

If anyone wants to embark on a tour across states, provinces or oceans,
shouldn't he or she at least learn some basic bike maintaining skills??

David.
 

>
> I've ridden in parts of Russia where it wouldn't have mattered how much
> money you had. Basically the Russian cyclists get their parts from
> Finland, but it's not a quick process. I brought a large number of spare
> parts with me, and was fortunate that my own bicycle didn't need them,
> but gave some to others that would have essentially had to end the ride
> if they had had to send for parts.
>
> So while the DHL/FedEx schtick is interesting, it really doesn't apply
> in many situations.


But how often does a rear derailleur hanger fails??

You guys here seemed to sound like that it's a common day occurence!

Derailleur hangers usually don't break off by itself. It's usually
attributed to poor adjustment on the derailleur limit screw, especially
the low gear one, during airline shipping or you run over a branch or
something..

But, there are already inexpensive solutions available aftermarket
designed to protect yours truly. Most experienced cycle tourists know
this.

They are called "Hanger Banger".

http://www.johnhenrybikes.com/catalog.asp?category=77&subcategory=0

shows an illustration of such a product designed for extreme epic
riding mountain bikers, but what's extreme to them works just as well
with global tourers.

When installed(I have it with my LX rear on my AL tour bike), it's DA
BOMB -- PROOF! I also installed a derailleur guard (a small alloy cage
protecting the derailleur) to protect it from airport conveyor belt
damage. Both don't add that much weight as my tour bike is already
heavy as it is. Double BOMB PROOF..

David.
 
:
: But how often does a rear derailleur hanger fails??
:
: You guys here seemed to sound like that it's a common day occurence!

David, I'm the original one who brought up the idea about a bent derailleur
hanger because it happened to me. I stopped on the side of the road and
didn't clip out with my right foot. I twisted my torso to look behind
me...and suddenly I was in the bar ditch with a bent derailleur hanger. It
hasn't happened since because I am careful to clip out with both feet every
time I come to a stop. BUT, the original post was about the fact that with a
steel bike, the derailleur hanger can be bent back to a normal position and
you don't have to carry a spare. You only have to carry a spare with bikes
using screw-on derailleur hangers and those would be the aluminum bikes.

How often? I would guess not often, but it could happen any time you fall
over on the right side. And, that could happen from a number of things from
hitting a rock to having to make a sudden stop or touching the guy's tire
ahead of you with your front tire....a number of things.

Pat in TX
 
I submit that on or about Sat, 1 Oct 2005 13:19:24 -0500, the person
known to the court as "Pat" <[email protected]> made a statement
(<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
following effect:

>the original post was about the fact that with a
>steel bike, the derailleur hanger can be bent back to a normal position and
>you don't have to carry a spare.


But, as stated previously, the hangers on my alu bikes are massively
thicker; the only times I've had bent hangers are on steel bikes
(where it doesn't matter). I have had a seriously bent mech and the
hanger has been fine on an alu bike.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
In article <[email protected]>, Pat <[email protected]>
wrote:

> :
> : But how often does a rear derailleur hanger fails??
> :
> : You guys here seemed to sound like that it's a common day occurence!
>
> David, I'm the original one who brought up the idea about a bent derailleur
> hanger because it happened to me. I stopped on the side of the road and
> didn't clip out with my right foot. I twisted my torso to look behind
> me...and suddenly I was in the bar ditch with a bent derailleur hanger. It
> hasn't happened since because I am careful to clip out with both feet every
> time I come to a stop. BUT, the original post was about the fact that with a
> steel bike, the derailleur hanger can be bent back to a normal position and
> you don't have to carry a spare. You only have to carry a spare with bikes
> using screw-on derailleur hangers and those would be the aluminum bikes.
>


Sure. But there are problems to this scenario.

Assuming that the person can bend the hanger back, you may never bend
it back to exactly the same alignment before it got bent. Which means,
you may effect the shifting performance on your rear derailleur.
Secondly, you have weakened the location at the bend. It will never be
the same as it was before the damage. Further touring and damage again
to the same location may even snap that end off. Once the hanger is
gone on the steel bike, the frame is rendered useless..

Whereas, on a bike with a replaceable derailleur hanger, the part will
always be new and nothing will be compromised. I'll go for that peace
of mind.

David.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
you know? <[email protected]> wrote:

> I submit that on or about Sat, 1 Oct 2005 13:19:24 -0500, the person
> known to the court as "Pat" <[email protected]> made a statement
> (<[email protected]> in Your Honour's bundle) to the
> following effect:
>
> >the original post was about the fact that with a
> >steel bike, the derailleur hanger can be bent back to a normal position and
> >you don't have to carry a spare.

>
> But, as stated previously, the hangers on my alu bikes are massively
> thicker; the only times I've had bent hangers are on steel bikes
> (where it doesn't matter). I have had a seriously bent mech and the
> hanger has been fine on an alu bike.
>
> Guy


You can also get aftermarket hangers for your ALU bikes that are
stronger than stock.. There are some weak stock ones out there. The
worst ones would be those of the older GT idrives of the 1999 to 2000
genre. Man, they break even if you just shift the gears. GT probably
made MORE profit selling hangers for idrives than the bikes before they
went under and got bought out. Replacement aftermarket ones solved
this.

David.
 
SMS wrote:
> The Wogster wrote:
>
>> Sure, they can send anything anywhere, and do it in a short period of
>> time, however watch the cost, it can cost over $200 and still take 5
>> business days to ship to some countries..... Then add local customs
>> charges, and brokerage fees, and a $10 hanger turns into a $350
>> hanger.....
>>
>> This can end a tour pretty quickly....

>
>
> I've ridden in parts of Russia where it wouldn't have mattered how much
> money you had. Basically the Russian cyclists get their parts from
> Finland, but it's not a quick process. I brought a large number of spare
> parts with me, and was fortunate that my own bicycle didn't need them,
> but gave some to others that would have essentially had to end the ride
> if they had had to send for parts.
>
> So while the DHL/FedEx schtick is interesting, it really doesn't apply
> in many situations.


I work for a courier company, and I always tell people, who want to know
how long it will take, to ship something overseas that honestly we don't
know. Customs can hold whatever they want, for as long as they want,
and the carrier can't do anything about it. For some places, carriers
rely on local contractors and postal authorities to do delivery. It
also depends on the shipper filing the correct paperwork, with the
shipment. Different paperwork can be required for different countries.

One of the most difficult to ship into, BTW is the United States, every
department of the US government can add extra requirements, and can
refuse entry if their particular form isn't filled in completely and the
right way. Of course the instructions are as clear as mud, and usually
asks more questions then they answer. It's not uncommon for them to
change the form, add several items, delete some others, rearrange the
rest, and use the same instruction pages.

W
 
David wrote:
>>Sure, they can send anything anywhere, and do it in a short period of
>>time, however watch the cost, it can cost over $200 and still take 5
>>business days to ship to some countries..... Then add local customs
>>charges, and brokerage fees, and a $10 hanger turns into a $350 hanger.....
>>
>>This can end a tour pretty quickly....
>>
>>W

>
>
> Based on my personal observation, most people who tour globally are
> usually equipped with most of the needed tools and parts to keep the
> bike going. And that means, carrying 2 spare hangers and a derailleur
> as they don't hog a lot of space or weight.
>
> I had met and helped people who "DON'T" carry any parts and tools to
> service their bikes. In fact, I was their "local bike shop" and they
> have touring bikes that can easily cost 3 to 4 times of that of mine
> and brand names many here mentioned. Also remember, some less
> fortunate countries may not have the mechanical competency of working
> on your expensive gear, since what's considered normal to have in North
> America may be considered a luxury to have not in poorer countries.
>
> If anyone wants to embark on a tour across states, provinces or oceans,
> shouldn't he or she at least learn some basic bike maintaining skills??
>


Yup, for a couple of reasons, probably 1 breakdown in 1,000,000 happens
as your coasting to a stop in front of an LBS, 99.99999% happen in the
middle of nowhere, usually on a cold, rainy night, when the only thing
to appear in your mind is a steaming cup of hot chocolate, a fire and a
nice warm bed. Being able to get patched up enough to get somewhere,
you can stop for the night is important.

I would say minimal parts to have available, would be a hanger, a rear
deraileur, one brake lever, a rear shifter, two sets of rear cables,
several spokes in each length required, plus nipples, a spare brake
unit, a chain, two tubes, a patch kit, and a folding tire.

Of course you need at least the tools to replace those parts....

W
 
I didn't bend it back myself. I rode the bike home not being able to shift
gears in the rear and with a terrible grinding sound. I took the bike to the
LBS and they put it on a jig that measured the angle of the dangle (so to
speak) and slowly slowly slowly made it straight.

Pat in TX
 
:
: I work for a courier company, and I always tell people, who want to know
: how long it will take, to ship something overseas that honestly we don't
: know. Customs can hold whatever they want, for as long as they want,
: and the carrier can't do anything about it. For some places, carriers
: rely on local contractors and postal authorities to do delivery. It
: also depends on the shipper filing the correct paperwork, with the
: shipment. Different paperwork can be required for different countries.
:
: One of the most difficult to ship into, BTW is the United States, every
: department of the US government can add extra requirements, and can
: refuse entry if their particular form isn't filled in completely and the
: right way. Of course the instructions are as clear as mud, and usually
: asks more questions then they answer. It's not uncommon for them to
: change the form, add several items, delete some others, rearrange the
: rest, and use the same instruction pages.
:
: W

Oh, this is so comforting. I didn't need to know this.

Pat in TX
:
:
:
:
:
:
 
Pat wrote:
> :
> : I work for a courier company, and I always tell people, who want to know
> : how long it will take, to ship something overseas that honestly we don't
> : know. Customs can hold whatever they want, for as long as they want,
> : and the carrier can't do anything about it. For some places, carriers
> : rely on local contractors and postal authorities to do delivery. It
> : also depends on the shipper filing the correct paperwork, with the
> : shipment. Different paperwork can be required for different countries.
> :
> : One of the most difficult to ship into, BTW is the United States, every
> : department of the US government can add extra requirements, and can
> : refuse entry if their particular form isn't filled in completely and the
> : right way. Of course the instructions are as clear as mud, and usually
> : asks more questions then they answer. It's not uncommon for them to
> : change the form, add several items, delete some others, rearrange the
> : rest, and use the same instruction pages.
> :
> : W
>
> Oh, this is so comforting. I didn't need to know this.
>


It's something to remember as well, when ordering something from within
the US, that is coming from outside the US.

W
 
Screw carrying tools, I just tote a spare bike along for the ride,
suspended under a mini-zeppelin, which floats above my daily rider.