Full Ceramics



Dec 30, 2007
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vio765 said:
anyone read the VERY short paragraph in the the June edition of Bicycling about ceramics? page 136 at the bottom. "Their measurable benefit is small, but small isn't nothing." this is about what i expect. replacing hub bearing with cheap Grade 5 hybrids wont do anything IMHO. however, throw in Grade 3 FULL CERAMICS in the hubs, BB, pedals, and pulleys and we may have something; perhaps a few saved watts. this, again, isnt much. but in my area, our top 2-3 TT guys win or lose to each other by less than 30 seconds on a routine basis. i know that one of them has claimed that he has hit his genetic peak. im pretty sure the other two have too (or are very close). they all have the highest quality machines and parts. the only way for them to get faster is either wind tunnel testing, ceramics, altitude training, or EPO. i guess my point is that around here, a few watts from ceramics sounds worth the price. ok, you talk.

Well, 'worth it' is a big word. For some, no amount of dollar spending for equipment is too high. I think an important point is when you say the top 2-3 TT guys trade wins regularly. If one were to spend the big $ on full ceramics and the others did not the results would be...they would still trade wins. Lots goes into the 'equation' of cycling performance and the bike is a relatively small part of it. Ceramics 'may' help and may not. Human performance day to day is too variable to predict with any certainty. I think there are better places to spend the $hundreds than on ball bearings. Coach, massage therapist, training camp, dietician, things more focused on the rider.

Just my opinion.
 

alfeng

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2005
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vio765 said:
anyone read the VERY short paragraph in the the June edition of Bicycling about ceramics? page 136 at the bottom. "Their measurable benefit is small, but small isn't nothing." this is about what i expect. replacing hub bearing with cheap Grade 5 hybrids wont do anything IMHO. however, throw in Grade 3 FULL CERAMICS in the hubs, BB, pedals, and pulleys and we may have something; perhaps a few saved watts. this, again, isnt much. but in my area, our top 2-3 TT guys win or lose to each other by less than 30 seconds on a routine basis. i know that one of them has claimed that he has hit his genetic peak. im pretty sure the other two have too (or are very close). they all have the highest quality machines and parts. the only way for them to get faster is either wind tunnel testing, ceramics, altitude training, or EPO. i guess my point is that around here, a few watts from ceramics sounds worth the price. ok, you talk.
FWIW. So, wouldn't removing the SEALS from almost any "regular" cartridge bearing produce ALMOST-the-SAME/EQUAL/MORE benefit of friction reduction as sealed ceramic bearings in the same application?

Granted, there would be periodic maintenance -- i.e., every few hours(!)/days/months ... -- THAT would be the cost of un-sealed bearings vs. $$.

BTW. I have some "track" hubs whose bearings are as-naked-as-a-new-born-baby, and they'll spin forever.
 

vio765

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Jan 20, 2005
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anyone know where to buy Zipp's Zedtech hubs? i have looked for a while and i am starting to believe they only come on zedtech wheels (complete).


and yes, i would spend money on a good coach LONG before buying full ceramics (at least until economies of scales take place).

running naked bearings? hope it doesnt RAIN!!! lol
 

alienator

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Jun 10, 2004
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vio765 said:
anyone know where to buy Zipp's Zedtech hubs? i have looked for a while and i am starting to believe they only come on zedtech wheels (complete).


and yes, i would spend money on a good coach LONG before buying full ceramics (at least until economies of scales take place).

running naked bearings? hope it doesnt RAIN!!! lol

Uhm, at Zipp only. If you're going to buy hubs, though, why not buy hubs that are better than the Zipps?
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
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Phill P said:
How can you have better hubs than Zipps? Who else has dimpled hubs???? :p

Actually, it's funny you mentioned that, 'cuz I read that Zipp is about ready to release their new, cartridge dimpled ceramic bearings.
 

Phill P

New Member
Jul 9, 2006
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They should dimple the seals as well!

Dimpling the oversized Al axles might be a bit pointless........


Hang on....brian wave!!!!!!

DIMPLED SPOKES!!!

ooooo o oo ooooo


DIMPLED TIRES!!!!!
 

vio765

New Member
Jan 20, 2005
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i got one better.....cosmetic surgery to have your face dimpled! michael jackson will be the one who goes first, though.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
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vio765 said:
i got one better.....cosmetic surgery to have your face dimpled! michael jackson will be the one who goes first, though.

Apparently you've never seen the average American teenager, with the now typical shotgun blast facial complexion.
 

vio765

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Jan 20, 2005
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its all that fast food. too bad the parents dont realize that some of the cheapest food available is also some of the most nutritious and easiest to prepare. i usually buy this monster bag of broccoli for like $10 and then steam about 2 cups of it. its done in 5 minutes (including prep time) and that bag lasts around a week. add some cheese and salt for flavor.
 

Camilo

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Apr 5, 2007
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vio765 said:
its all that fast food. too bad the parents dont realize that some of the cheapest food available is also some of the most nutritious and easiest to prepare. i usually buy this monster bag of broccoli for like $10 and then steam about 2 cups of it. its done in 5 minutes (including prep time) and that bag lasts around a week. add some cheese and salt for flavor.
has nothing to do with diet.
 

vio765

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Jan 20, 2005
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i have assesed this thread and i have arrived at my conclusion with regards to full ceramics.
 

Phill P

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Jul 9, 2006
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I'm looking forward to the BB30 standard becoming more common.

The current external BBs are anything but standard. They have slightly different width sealed bearings and slightly different width spacings for the cranks. Also the replacement method for the bearing means misalignment is a big issue.

With BB30 everybody will use the same width bearing, and same spacing. The down side if using hybrid or steel bearings will be the seal drag, which I'm sure more will agree is a bigger power consumer than the actual bearings.

However, since everybody uses the one size bearing, for me buying in bulk FULL ceramic bearings with just a shield becomes much easier. Use the shield to keep the **** out and the few drops of oil in (yeah I'd still use a little oil simply because of the dust that would get in).
The shield would have less drag than a contact seal, but help keep the bearing environment cleaner. You can get away with a shield as the ceramic doesn't need to be kept water tight as keeping the **** out and the lube in isn't a critical factor!

So on BB30 not only would you get greatly reduced weight (60% of 2 large steel bearings) but also low rolling resistance, low seal drag (which will be a big issue for BB30) and possible lifetime running of the bearing (to offset any cost).

I might enquire with my supplier about the cost of the BB30 bearings with shields. Pitty is that the Six13 I'm about to buy is not equiped with BB30, and not many frames on the market are so, the demand would be pretty darn low currently.

I wonder if I could convince the tax man (and my girl friend) that I need to upgrade to the System 6 with BB30 so I can claim sales tax and income tax. Afterall the new wheels will have ceramics as well.....I have to test my goods and display them some how!!
 
Dec 30, 2007
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Phill P said:
I'm looking forward to the BB30 standard becoming more common.

The current external BBs are anything but standard. They have slightly different width sealed bearings and slightly different width spacings for the cranks. Also the replacement method for the bearing means misalignment is a big issue.

With BB30 everybody will use the same width bearing, and same spacing. The down side if using hybrid or steel bearings will be the seal drag, which I'm sure more will agree is a bigger power consumer than the actual bearings.

However, since everybody uses the one size bearing, for me buying in bulk FULL ceramic bearings with just a shield becomes much easier. Use the shield to keep the **** out and the few drops of oil in (yeah I'd still use a little oil simply because of the dust that would get in).
The shield would have less drag than a contact seal, but help keep the bearing environment cleaner. You can get away with a shield as the ceramic doesn't need to be kept water tight as keeping the **** out and the lube in isn't a critical factor!

So on BB30 not only would you get greatly reduced weight (60% of 2 large steel bearings) but also low rolling resistance, low seal drag (which will be a big issue for BB30) and possible lifetime running of the bearing (to offset any cost).

I might enquire with my supplier about the cost of the BB30 bearings with shields. Pitty is that the Six13 I'm about to buy is not equiped with BB30, and not many frames on the market are so, the demand would be pretty darn low currently.

I wonder if I could convince the tax man (and my girl friend) that I need to upgrade to the System 6 with BB30 so I can claim sales tax and income tax. Afterall the new wheels will have ceramics as well.....I have to test my goods and display them some how!!

We'll see if frame makers decide to spend the money to make the BB30 into any standard. No doubt some will do it because it will be easier to hook huge down and seat tubes to a larger area, same for now 1.5 HS lowers and great big dwn tubes, easier means cheaper altho I doubt any of that 'savings' will be seen at the consumer level. IF the biggest boy-shimano, decides to abandon their new internal bearing design and embrace BB30, then perhaps frame makers will get on board but in spite of all the noise from Sram and FSA, only 2 frames I know of now have this 'standard'-Cannondale and Specialized.
 

alfeng

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2005
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We'll see if frame makers decide to spend the money to make the BB30 into any standard. No doubt some will do it because it will be easier to hook huge down and seat tubes to a larger area, same for now 1.5 HS lowers and great big dwn tubes, easier means cheaper altho I doubt any of that 'savings' will be seen at the consumer level. IF the biggest boy-shimano, decides to abandon their new internal bearing design and embrace BB30, then perhaps frame makers will get on board but in spite of all the noise from Sram and FSA, only 2 frames I know of now have this 'standard'-Cannondale and Specialized.
FWIW. I concur that it will take someone like Shimano-or-Campagnolo to adopt the BB30 standard ...

Can you say M.O.st?
 

Phill P

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Jul 9, 2006
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/mtb/2008/apr08/seaotter08/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/features/seaotter_tech408

More brands are coming on board. I guess what it comes down to is when they plan on retooling.
FSA seem right behind BB30, and there are rumors of campy and shimano doing a BB30 crank.

The biggest issue is redesigning and retooling the frames. But lets face it, we've had integrated seat posts, now taper steerers, what are the marketers going to move on to next?

Its actually good for the OEMs, they don't have to buy complete BBs any more, they can just source the bearings direct! Whats more they can use the same grade bearings across thier range and the customer will be none the wiser (no more 105/ultegra/DA mix in the volumes)
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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alfeng said:
FWIW. So, wouldn't removing the SEALS from almost any "regular" cartridge bearing produce ALMOST-the-SAME/EQUAL/MORE benefit of friction reduction as sealed ceramic bearings in the same application?

Granted, there would be periodic maintenance -- i.e., every few hours(!)/days/months ... -- THAT would be the cost of un-sealed bearings vs. $$.

BTW. I have some "track" hubs whose bearings are as-naked-as-a-new-born-baby, and they'll spin forever.
I remember the old Campag Super Record hubs being rather nice. I had two sets of wheels for hill climbs - one with regular grease in the hubs and one with a "super special" grease that would only just last the distance. The amount of revs those wheels would do when spun, in comparison to those loaded with the regular grease, was significantly more. Whether that "advantage" carried over when they were mounted in the bike and had a 145lb rider on top would be a different matter entirely.

Speaking of which, it always made me wonder why people don't check for the correct adjustment of cup-and-cone bearings when the wheel is in the bike - instead of farting about for hours with the wheel sat in their laps.

Speaking of bearings - the Sugino 75 BB is just godly..... Mount the cranks, spin, come back after dinner and watch then still twirl...

FWIW.... WD40 provides enough lubrication for a 5 minute event on the track. $5 can of spray or $400 on bearings..... That tidbit of info was originally from The University of Manchester - one of the better engineering schools around.
 
Dec 30, 2007
2,111
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Phill P said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/mtb/2008/apr08/seaotter08/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/features/seaotter_tech408

More brands are coming on board. I guess what it comes down to is when they plan on retooling.
FSA seem right behind BB30, and there are rumors of campy and shimano doing a BB30 crank.

The biggest issue is redesigning and retooling the frames. But lets face it, we've had integrated seat posts, now taper steerers, what are the marketers going to move on to next?

Its actually good for the OEMs, they don't have to buy complete BBs any more, they can just source the bearings direct! Whats more they can use the same grade bearings across thier range and the customer will be none the wiser (no more 105/ultegra/DA mix in the volumes)

FSA has never seen a gadgety idea it didn't like. FSA has fallem out of our shop because of crappy bearing and chainring quality. They are more about flash than function, IMO.

Same grade bearings across the line. Yep, crappy bearings across the line. Product managers have been doing hidden spec for decades, which reduces costs along with durability(Where's my tennis racket!!).

Once more, a 'thing' to point at in a flat market. For those shops that are unlucky enough to embrace a bike with integrated seatmast..how do you do test rides? have a size run of $5000+ bikes?

The 'analysts' in various online and print publications hoot and holler about all the silly stuff in bikes today. My list of sillyness gets longer each day.