Full-fat (natural) food



"Lictor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "MH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > When was this? Did you go to Farmers' Markets? Rainbow Grocery? Whole
> Foods?
> > The neighborhood Asian market?
>
> Of course not, I just went to the nearest supermarket! In SF, this was
> Wallmart (that was before I learnt how evil they are), in NYC, it was
> Gristedes (sp?). I mean, I just wanted normal regular food, not organic
> stuff ;)

Then sorry, you're not too bright.

>
> > I live in Downtown San Francisco and I can
> > tell you that I can find all the excellent quality stuff I want, much
more
> > so than any other part of the US (especially the Midwest and the South)
> and
> > Europe.
>
> Well, I guess it must be cultural then ;)

Yep, in SF you can get what you want if you actually look for it. Not at
Walgreens. Which is kinda sad actually, you would even look there. I guess
it's a tourist thing.

You find what you want in the USA,
> and I never had any problem finding what I wanted in Europe... You're
> probably running to places I would not even think about shopping at when
> you're in Europe, and it seems I'm doing the same when I visit the USA...

Nope, I know what I can find ahead of time just by doing my homework. But
then, I don't look for food and culture at Walgreens. : )

Martha
 
"MH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Of course not, I just went to the nearest supermarket! In SF, this was
> > Wallmart (that was before I learnt how evil they are), in NYC, it was
> > Gristedes (sp?). I mean, I just wanted normal regular food, not organic
> > stuff ;)
>
> Then sorry, you're not too bright.

Well, I wasn't on a diet, and I just wanted some inexpensive decent quality
food to eat. I usually don't buy organic stuff, except on very specific
items (like oils). The point of my trip was to visit the city, not to spend
hours shopping for food.
Anyway, that was my whole point, if you look at the obesity problem from the
sociological point of view. Here, I have a whole universe between organic
stuff and junk food. And I have it next door at low prices. You can't expect
Joe Average, who works two jobs and is barely struggling above poverty
level, to go shopping into an organic shop. Nor can you expect him to spend
hours searching on the computer he cannot afford for an alternative. Joe
Average will just go to the nearest cheapest shop, and this tends to be
Wallsth, and this means eating mostly junk food. In some poor areas, it's a
real problem to find stuff like vegetables or plain uncooked fish. Here, the
cheapest alternative will usually be regular food, things like normal milk,
normal butter, vegetables, fish, pork (which can be lean) - and actually
doing the cooking yourself...
 
"MH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Uh no, dumbass....it's a drug store, duh....sorry but you were either
stuck
> in your room and didn't even walk outside of the 'hood or maybe you'r
> wheelchair bound. That would explain you not even bothering going to the
> Farmers' Market at the Ferry Building. Did you go there?

Yes, I visited a few markets, both in SF and NYC. But the plan was not to
try to spend ten times the amount of money I spend home just to buy the same
food. The prices tend to be rather high, again, the goal was not to spend
all my money on buying "healthy" food. I mean, I just wanted *basic* food
that is not premade. Stuff like basic non-organic vegetables. I should not
have to travel half the city for stuff like that!
But how many people actually shop in these markets? How many shop at places
like Wallmart? How many markers like these do you have in poor areas?
Outside of the big cities? What is the *cheapest* alternative, is it
walgreen-likes or organic markets?
If you look beyond your own little self, you will see where the problem is.
When the largest and cheapest alternative is to buy junk food, people, as an
average, will buy junk food.
Since I started my diet, my monthly spendings on food have actually go
*down*. I now spend about half what I was spending a few months ago. Unless
you're extremelly poor (then, it's mostly pasta and butter), it's cheaper to
eat simple food (vegetables, fish, meat that you cook yourself...) here.
Since you have started your diet, which way has your food budget gone? If
you were to live on $1200 a month, what kind of food would you be able to
eat?

> Please tell me you
> walked around a little and didn't think Walgreens waws a grocery store. If
> you actually thought Walgreens was a grovery store then, I'm sorry,
there's
> no help for you.

I thought Walgreens was a supermarket. That's where I usually go to buy most
of my food. Actually, things were better in NYC, in front of about every
drugstore, you had stuff like Agostino or Gristedes. At least, you could
find some decent vegetables there. The only problem is that they were
totally overpriced. It should not be less expensive to eat at McDonald than
to buy vegetables and meat!

> Did you go to Whole Foods? Rainbow Market? Civic Center Farmers' Market?
NO!
> You didn't did you? Walgreens is NOT THE SAME!!!!!!!!

I did visit some of these, as a tourist, out of curiosity. I don't buy much
organic stuff at home, why should I have gone to a place like Whole Foods to
buy basic stuff every supermarkets should carry? The problem is that
Walgreens SHOULD be the same! At least, if you do want to reverse the way
obesity is growing right now.
Actually, in Paris, a real market is about the last place I would go
shopping for food. They're nice for tourists, they're part of the folklore,
but the hygiene is bad, the food is not very fresh and it is exactly the
same you can buy at the nearby supermarket, only sold at an higher price. If
I want to buy fish to make sushis, such a market is the last place I would
go to, unless I wanted to end up at the hospital. True, I would not go to a
supermarket either (though the fish is fresh enough for cooking), I would
just go to a fish shop.

> Paris, London, Tuscany, Copehagen, Stockholm, Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim,
> Tromso, Bodo, etc, etc, etc. But then, I never thought a drug store (like
> Walgreens) was a grocery store. You lose, buddy. I know what a REAL MARKET
> and a REAL FARMERS' MARKET looks like.

As far as I know, we have one drugstore left in Paris, and its main selling
point is that you can buy cigarettes there in the middle of the night. So, I
very much doubt that's where you tried to buy food. But if by drugstore, you
mean the regular city supermarkets (Casino, Monoprix...), they actually do
act as grocery stores. That's where most people will go to buy their food.
The "grocery stores" that you might have seen, usually owned by Arabs, are
the equivalent of the Chinese facility shops in NYC - they sell overpriced
stuff but are opened late at night and on sundays. Noone buys stuff there on
a regular basis. Same with the street markets. Unless you actually knew the
handful that are trully high quality (I would say 3-4 in Paris), you
probably bought as much pigeon droppings as real (if not really fresh) food.
Again, the main places for people to shop for food *are* supermarkets. And
they do carry (some) organic stuff, where it is meaningfull. If you compare
these to Walgreens and the like, that's where the real difference is! If I
really wanted to shop for organic food, which I don't (it's usually a
rip-off, I'm not interesting in buying overpriced stuff that doesn't even
taste good), I have several specialized shops in my area. If I want to shop
in small shops, I can do that also, and the prices will be around the same
as in my supermarkets. That's the point of having supermarkets that carry
everything, they set a standard price for goods!

Real Farmers and all are nice, but not everyone can shop there. They're not
available everywhere, they're expensive. If 100% of the Americans decided to
shop there, the whole system would just collapse. You don't need to buy all
organic stuff to stay healthy, just eating vegetables and cooking yourself
does the trick...
 
>Subject: Re: Full-fat (natural) food
>From: "Lictor" [email protected]
>Date: 4/17/2004 4:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>

> Of course not, I just went to the nearest supermarket! In SF, this was
>> > Wallmart (that was before I learnt how evil they are), in NYC, it was

hmm...confused about this...

Recently visited my first "super Walmart"...the kind with food etc...

Firstly the fresh fruit and vegs section was HUGE...and prices lower than the
average supermarket down the street...

Meats,,,etc also a great selection...one could pick from the "fresh"
unadulerated stuff..and yeah..the "junk" type hot dogs and bologna..but there
was ample choice..

Milks, cheese,,yoghurt,,etc etc was in ample supply...in fact..this was the
largest display of fresh food I had seen lately..

Alongside of course the boxed stuff ...cereals,,etc..and of course paper
products and inexpensive clothing...

You are a bit out of line...not to mention..innaccurate to blame Walmart for
what it does..and does not sell...

And living in "downtown" SF I would bet there were fresh produce stores within
a walking block from anywhere you may have lived....

"normal regular food??" ..is available nearly everywhere in any major city..and
in MOST suburbs as well....

>In some poor areas, it's a
>real problem to find stuff like vegetables or plain uncooked fish. Here, the

this is simply not true...>cheapest alternative will usually be regular food,
things like normal milk,
>normal butter, vegetables, fish, pork (which can be lean) - and actually
>doing the cooking yourself...

again..available probably on every square block of a city the size of SF...

on the other hand...when visiting cities like London,,
Paris,,Edinburgh..etc...I am always amazed at the very small selection,,as
compared to what I can get here...not that I don't love Europe..I do..but I
surely would miss the huge supermarkets we have...and the choices to choose
from


hawki.....
 
"Lictor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Crafting Mom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Even here in Canada, there are fillers, additives, dyes, refined sugars,
> > MSG, and other preservatives in EVERYthing. There is hardly such a
> > thing as real food anymore. I shop mostly the produce section and the
> > fish department. There are very few things you can find in a box that
> > don't have cheap fillers designed to feed on a junk-food addiction here
> > in North America.
>
> Eh, I actually do add MSG in my (some) food myself! ;)

Me too! It adds flavor. The funny part about MSG is that it is in a lot of
food. Most people who think they are allergic to MSG aren't. There's more
MSG in takeout pizza than Chinese food, but you never hear about MSG
sufferers saying they had a reaction to MSG from pizza. : )

Martha
 
"MH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Me too! It adds flavor. The funny part about MSG is that it is in a lot of
> food. Most people who think they are allergic to MSG aren't. There's more
> MSG in takeout pizza than Chinese food, but you never hear about MSG
> sufferers saying they had a reaction to MSG from pizza. : )

It also comes naturally in a lot of food, like tomatoes or Parmesan (which
is why they add so much taste to recipes). It's also the main component of
stock cubes, which many people use...
Though many Chinese restaurants tend to use way too much of it and you can
taste that there is too much of something, a pinch is usually plenty
enough...
 
"SnugBear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Lictor" wrote:
>
> > Actually, NYC was already a lot better than SF. At least, buying
> > quality greens and meat was very easy there. Of course, things might
> > be twisted by the fact that I expect my next door supermarket to carry
> > everything I need. Maybe out of city supermarkets did carry what I
> > needed.
>
> Can anybody imagine Martha screaming at this? Good thing she's out of
> the country ;-)
>
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You just made my day, Laurie, thanks!!!

Martha
 
"MH" wrote:

> ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> You just made my day, Laurie, thanks!!!

See? I missed you :)

--
Walking on . . .
Laurie in Maine
207/110 60 inches of attitude!
Start: 2/02 Maintained since 2/03
 
"SnugBear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "MH" wrote:
>
> > ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > You just made my day, Laurie, thanks!!!
>
> See? I missed you :)
>
Awww.......my hormones are going berzerk this week....thanks. : )

Martha
 
In alt.support.diet MH <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Me too! It adds flavor. The funny part about MSG is that it is in a lot of
>food. Most people who think they are allergic to MSG aren't. There's more
>MSG in takeout pizza than Chinese food, but you never hear about MSG
>sufferers saying they had a reaction to MSG from pizza. : )

Back in the days when I ate takeout pizza, I could feel the MSG. I'd
say "allergy" is a bit of a reach, and not a word I have or will ever
use to describe my past relationship to MSG (and other glutamates). I
have more of a sensitivity than an allergy.

I'm an adult now, anyway, and I don't need other people to take me
seriously in order to not consume this ingredient. All that is
necessary, people snickering or no, is that I say "no thank you".

CM
 
Where would they put the MSG in the pizza?

"Crafting Mom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In alt.support.diet MH <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Me too! It adds flavor. The funny part about MSG is that it is in a lot
of
> >food. Most people who think they are allergic to MSG aren't. There's more
> >MSG in takeout pizza than Chinese food, but you never hear about MSG
> >sufferers saying they had a reaction to MSG from pizza. : )
>
> Back in the days when I ate takeout pizza, I could feel the MSG. I'd
> say "allergy" is a bit of a reach, and not a word I have or will ever
> use to describe my past relationship to MSG (and other glutamates). I
> have more of a sensitivity than an allergy.
>
> I'm an adult now, anyway, and I don't need other people to take me
> seriously in order to not consume this ingredient. All that is
> necessary, people snickering or no, is that I say "no thank you".
>
> CM
>
 
"Crafting Mom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In alt.support.diet MH <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Me too! It adds flavor. The funny part about MSG is that it is in a lot
of
> >food. Most people who think they are allergic to MSG aren't. There's more
> >MSG in takeout pizza than Chinese food, but you never hear about MSG
> >sufferers saying they had a reaction to MSG from pizza. : )
>
> Back in the days when I ate takeout pizza, I could feel the MSG. I'd
> say "allergy" is a bit of a reach, and not a word I have or will ever
> use to describe my past relationship to MSG (and other glutamates). I
> have more of a sensitivity than an allergy.
>
> I'm an adult now, anyway, and I don't need other people to take me
> seriously in order to not consume this ingredient. All that is
> necessary, people snickering or no, is that I say "no thank you".
>
> CM

Then you actually have the allergy and know what it's really like. Few who
say they do, do have it. It's a trendy thing these days. But I've had dinner
with people who will eat pizza and have no problem and then will the next
night avoid a particular Chinese restaurant because of the MSG.

No doubt the same people who are vegetarians and yet still wear leather. : )

Martha

>
 
In alt.support.diet Gymmy Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>Where would they put the MSG in the pizza?

We're talking about a seasoning, not a watermelon. I am sure it would
fit in the sauce :)

CM
 
I have never heard of a spaghetti or pizza sauce containing MSG.

"Crafting Mom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In alt.support.diet Gymmy Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Where would they put the MSG in the pizza?
>
> We're talking about a seasoning, not a watermelon. I am sure it would
> fit in the sauce :)
>
> CM
>
 
"Gymmy Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have never heard of a spaghetti or pizza sauce containing MSG.
>
Well, many do, and MSG is usually in Parmesan cheese as well.

Martha

> "Crafting Mom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In alt.support.diet Gymmy Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >Where would they put the MSG in the pizza?
> >
> > We're talking about a seasoning, not a watermelon. I am sure it would
> > fit in the sauce :)
> >
> > CM
> >
>
>
 
Do you have any links I can reference? My mother claims to be extremely
allergic to MSG, yet loves tomatoes. Is it different when it is in a
natural veggie as opposed to a created ingrediant?

"Lictor"
>
> Tomatoes are a key component of both these sauces. They are also a natural
> source of MSG.
>
>
 
"Perple Gyrl" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Do you have any links I can reference? My mother claims to be
> extremely allergic to MSG, yet loves tomatoes. Is it different when
> it is in a natural veggie as opposed to a created ingrediant?

The key word here is "claims." Many people think they're allergic to
something when they in fact aren't. And no, a molecule of MSG is a
molecule of MSG no matter how it was synthesized; molecules don't retain
any "memory" of the processes by which they were created.
 
"Perple Gyrl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do you have any links I can reference? My mother claims to be extremely
> allergic to MSG, yet loves tomatoes. Is it different when it is in a
> natural veggie as opposed to a created ingrediant?

Sure, I did a quick search :
http://www.ific.org/publications/brochures/msgbroch.cfm
http://www.glutamate.org/media/ginfoods.htm
http://www.foodsciencebureau.com.au/nutrit/msg.htm

Maybe your mother is sensitive to very high amounts of MSG. Some low cost
Chinese restaurants seem to think that using half a pound of MSG will work
some kind of miracle on their otherwise bland food. MSG is not miraculous,
it will enhance tasty food, but it won't do much if the food doesn't have an
interresting taste in the first place. Also, somewhat like salt, MSG is only
effective up to some amount of it, if you use to much, it just doesn't add
anything anymore (though it won't make the meal unedible like too much salt
will). A few pinches are plenty enough.
To "normal" people, high amount of MSG just taste kind of "wrong". Maybe
when it reaches this level, your mother does get a reaction she wouldn't get
at lower (and reasonnable) amounts. Or maybe the restaurants that are likely
to use huge amounts of MSG are also the ones likely to have low quality food
that is not very fresh - some people are very sensitive to that. Or maybe
she is also allergic to some other component of Chinese cuisine (dried
pawned, mushrooms, oysters and stuff like this come to mind).
 
"Lictor" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> reaction she wouldn't get at lower (and reasonnable) amounts. Or maybe
> the restaurants that are likely to use huge amounts of MSG are also
> the ones likely to have low quality food that is not very fresh - some
> people are very sensitive to that. Or maybe she is also allergic to
> some other component of Chinese cuisine (dried pawned, mushrooms,
> oysters and stuff like this come to mind).

You've touched on a very important point here. All too often when people
experience some symptom, they zero in on the first possible cause that
comes to mind, ignore all the other possibilities, and become totally
convinced that their first explanation was correct. It's a very natural
tendency, almost certainly caused by the way our brains are wired, but it
quite frequently leads to completely wrong conclusions. The fact that a
jumped-to conclusion *feels* right has little or no bearing on its truth.

That's why medicine has the concept of a differential diagnosis (consider
*all* the possible explanations for the patient's signs and symptoms, and
gather evidence for/against each one) and scientific research has the
concept of controls for experimental studies and comparison groups for
observational studies. It's not enough to have evidence that's consistent
with a hypothesis; you need to also have evidence that's inconsistent with
the opposite of the hypothesis, and no evidence that's inconsistent with
the hypothesis.

The methods of science are, in essence, simply ways of restraining our
natural tendency to jump to conclusions. They strike some people as
restrictive because jumping to conclusions *feels* good. It's actually
*hard work* to restrain our brains' built-in ability to recognize patterns,
even when one doesn't really exist. But ultimately the truth feels better.
 
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