Full list of dope suspects published

[JohnO]

I'm sorry what case are you referring to ? This is not about me but Ullrich, Funetes and Basso. Stick to the point. However you mention the Armstrong case do you not ? His tests were conducted in an approved WADA lab not a Spanish doping crack house for cyclists of ill repute. There is a massive difference between an approved lab which tests samples everyday of the year and a witch doctor who hangs bags of extracted blood in 40 degree heat. Are you really telling me Fuentes Labs inc.and Chatenay-Malabry laboratory are they same ?

Fuentes was an accredited doctor with a licence to practice medicine, which includes fairly strict oversight by both Spain and the EU. What he was doing with the transfusions was definitely not approved by the medical regulatory boards.

LNDD may have been WADA accredited. But the 2005 experiment was not WADA accredited (even if they did fund it), and the conditions of the 'test' varied considerably from WADA protocols.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Interesting.... what I find even more interesting is the fax on page 3 - The phone number its been sent to has been blacked out with the exception of the country dialing code which is +57. +57 is the country dialing code for Columbia ! Why is this fax going to Columbia ??

Now trying calling the US phone number on page 6... you get an interesting response back from the recorded message..... scary..... yep you get to hear Haven Hamilton on her answering machine !

New documents online at interpool.tv:

http://www.interpool.tv/downloads/dopingbericht_guardia_civil_akten_1.pdf

One of the documents is about number 1 getting bloodtransfusions in Hamburg on June 20, 2006. More and more German newspapers are starting to ask questions.The daily Hamburger Abendblatt doesn't think Ullrich was in Hamburg on June 20. The question is, if he wasn't... who is number 1?

 

[portia]

Interesting.... what I find even more interesting is the fax on page 3 - The phone number its been sent to has been blacked out with the exception of the country dialing code which is +57. +57 is the country dialing code for Columbia ! Why is this fax going to Columbia ??


Now trying calling the US phone number on page 6... you get an interesting response back from the recorded message..... scary.....

The fax went to Columbia because a so-called "Nelson" , I don´t remember his family name, was one of Fuentes´camels. He was mentioned in the German media, but I don´t remember if "Nelson" met Fuentes as the team doctor of a Columbian team or if "Nelson" was a soigneur with Kelme. But this is for sure "Nelson" is Columbian and this, too, explains everything fishy surrounding Botero.

Goodness: Haven Hmltn
68o1 Sunshine Canyon
Boulder (Colorado)
USA

It´s such an ugly place, but apart from that cheater there are nice people there, an elderly gentleman gave me a silver dollar when we stayed there in 1981.

 

[cyclingheroes]

The fax went to Columbia because a so-called "Nelson" , I don´t remember his family name, was one of Fuentes´camels. He was mentioned in the German media, but I don´t remember if "Nelson" met Fuentes as the team doctor of a Columbian team or if "Nelson" was a soigneur with Kelme. But this is for sure "Nelson" is Columbian and this, too, explains everything fishy surrounding Botero.

Goodness: Haven Hmltn
68o1 Sunshine Canyon
Boulder (Colorado)
USA

It´s such an ugly place, but apart from that cheater there are nice people there, an elderly gentleman gave me a silver dollar when we stayed there in 1981.

I am on the road and don't have all my Fuentes stuff with me but i do know that Nelson is a former Kelme employee and worked later for a team from Columbia which was operating with a license from Belda company(Manager of Valenciana)

 

[acpinto]

I think we all have to agree that spanish athelets are performing at hi-levels in almost any sport.

From top of my mind, without research that implicates that i coul have forgoten something or make an error on the dates.

Football, although they allways fail in the last stages of euro and world cup at country level, in terms of teams they are performing extremely well, since Real beat juventus in 1998 they had a spanish team in the final of champions league in almost every year ( Bayern - Man Utd, Milan-Juve, Porto-Monaco are the exceptions) and in 2000 they had 2 teams in the final Valência-Real. Won 4 of the Champions league trophys and 2 Uefa cups Valência and Sevilla.

Basketball, Juniors World champions in lisbon in 2000?( i think), World champions 2006.

Handball, they kick in, although in this case, i have to say that they were strong before.

Rink Hockey, same as handball

Atheletics, there middle and long distances racers are the best in europe, they don´t have the best racers in every discipline but they have many top racers. Best portuguese atheletes, ( EC Obikwelu wich is portuguese train in spain)

Tennis, i remember when spain had only emilio and arantxa sanchez vicario. Not counting Nadal ( special case), how many top players spain have?

Cycling, I remember in the 90´s they had 3 teams at top level (banesto, Once, Kelme), now they have Comunidad Valenciana, Euskatel, Liberty-whurth-astana, Islas Baleares not to mention the amount of spanish riders in other pro-tour squads, portuguese teams are infected (not bad intended) with all the spanish riders in their squads. Oscar Pereiro started is pro carreer in a portuguese team.

In Motorsports they have achieved World champions in F1, rally, and in motorbikes from trial to track circuits they have a lot of riders being candidates for title.

After what we saw with OP would be this because PED´s?

Since the dawn of OP that suspicion came to my mind. But must of all, and this is because what i´m reading here, imagine you were a top spanish rider doping at ring Fuentes and you came to know by some "bird" that your doctor was being investigated, wasn´t probably or at least a opurtunaty that you could take advantage to eleminate your rivals on the biggest race.

Let´s think of Manolo, wouldn´t he try to make vinoukurov a favourite in the tour?

So there was only 2 riders who were above competition, and i don´t think Vinoukurov, Landis, even Valverde were man enugh to prevent one of these 2 to win. Ulrich and Basso. So some circunstancial evidence and of they go.

And them, Valverde was another one. maybee not Landis because of Riis, Hamilton conection.

Them Wurth could race with vinoukurov, but to many suspiction and the team is forbided on the tour, for the interest of spain Valverde is cleared of OP, having no conection with Fuentes.

This is, of course, fiction, but "Valv" was a very funny coincidence and i did have a bad time wondering why he could race and not Ulrich or Basso.

...And i know who kill JFK!!!
After what i just write i´m open to people defending that a spanish secret agent ( and not the french laboratory ) framed Landis.

P.S. I don´t think the guys in motorsports dope, i don´t believe it would helped them enough and they would avoid having secondary efects on concentration or reflexes, but F1 is making is way to have dopping test at the drivers, so...

 

[fbircher]

It’s not about DNA analysis, science or being sloppy. It’s doubt. It’s about comparing your sample against something that’s not exact. Fuentes blood bags were not handled with the standards we would expect from a medical institution – The storage cannot be confirmed against medical standards or the mix. He had 200 bags of blood hanging on a wall with injections of god knows what substances. I wouldn't have my blood tested against such storage or concoctions. Its way to dangerous for a false positive. The bottom is that there is too much doubt over the Fuentes blood mix. There is no way anyone let alone Ullrich and Basso would have there blood tested against that. Would you ?

For me, it is about the science. While I restate that I'm not a DNA expert, I know that DNA analysis is used for crime scene investigations. While it's appropriate to expect "clinical" standards to be used by the labs when comparing known samples against genetic material gathered from a crime scene, we can't expect the material at the crime scene to have been clinically controlled prior to the point at which it was collected by the authorities. Prior to collection by the authorities, the hairs, fibers, blood, etc. that end up at a crime scene are subject to cross contamination of all sorts because they exist outside of a laboratory. To take the position that all material used for DNA analysis (both the known and unknown samples) must have been handled according to clinical standards at all points in time throughout their existence imposes a standard that would preclude ever using DNA analysis for any criminal investigation.

Because we know that samples from messy crime scenes are used for DNA analysis, it seems logical to deduce that there are methods available to do at least one of two things: (a) Eliminate or separate the effects of contamination from multiple sources, and/or (b) Identify when contaimination has occured such that unsuitable samples can be rejected for further analysis. For me, it really comes down to this question: Can mixing blood from two or more donors create a new genetic profile that could mistakenly be matched to a person who isn't one of the donors? If the answer is no, then I would absolutely submit to a DNA analysis if it gave me with a chance to reafirm my innocence to an increasingly suspicious public.

 

[fbircher]

I'm sorry what case are you referring to ? This is not about me but Ullrich, Funetes and Basso. Stick to the point. However you mention the Armstrong case do you not ? His tests were conducted in an approved WADA lab not a Spanish doping crack house for cyclists of ill repute. There is a massive difference between an approved lab which tests samples everyday of the year and a witch doctor who hangs bags of extracted blood in 40 degree heat. Are you really telling me Fuentes Labs inc.and Chatenay-Malabry laboratory are they same ?

Fuentes sounds like a crackpot, and you are correct that it would be an insult to compare his "lab" to a reputable organization, such as any accredited laboratory. But as I stated in my other email, I think it's a mistake to even consider Fuentes' lab as an analog to the C-M lab when considering this issue at all. I view Fuentes' lab an an analog to a messy crime scene, where the evidence that is gathered for further analysis has been subjected to potential contamination from multiple sources. We would then have to evaluate the expertise of whatever real lab is tasked with analyzing this messy evidence and comparing it against samples from known donors. At this point, it's not at all clear to me that this cannot be done in a scientifcally sound manner. I used to work in a laboratory that conducted metallurical analysis of samples collected from environments where cross contamination was big issue, but very possible to deal with in most cases. Not having any DNA expertise, I would greatly appreciate hearing from any forum members who could shed light on the ability of current DNA analysis techniques to deal with source material that may have multiple donors.

 

[whiteboytrash]

You see it’s not for Basso or Ullrich to provide the scientific evidence that they didn't dope it’s for the UCI/federations to provide the scientific, ironclad, watertight evidence that they did dope. In real world terms would you come forward and provide your blood to the police to check if they could match it against a bloody knife found in a random park ? Of course not. Its up to them to find the match ! Imagine if you walked through that park everyday would you still come forward and provide a sample ? Of course not. It’s your basic human right not to. Federations need to prove that Ullrich and Basso's blood is those bags. It’s not for Basso and Ullrich to prove their blood isn't in those bags. Whilst there is doubt there is no need for science or DNA. Case closed. As soon as the Italian and Swiss federations hand the case back to the UCI, Ullrich and Basso will launch their cases to CAS to have their licences reinstated.

Fuentes sounds like a crackpot, and you are correct that it would be an insult to compare his "lab" to a reputable organization, such as any accredited laboratory. But as I stated in my other email, I think it's a mistake to even consider Fuentes' lab as an analog to the C-M lab when considering this issue at all. I view Fuentes' lab an an analog to a messy crime scene, where the evidence that is gathered for further analysis has been subjected to potential contamination from multiple sources. We would then have to evaluate the expertise of whatever real lab is tasked with analyzing this messy evidence and comparing it against samples from known donors. At this point, it's not at all clear to me that this cannot be done in a scientifcally sound manner. I used to work in a laboratory that conducted metallurical analysis of samples collected from environments where cross contamination was big issue, but very possible to deal with in most cases. Not having any DNA expertise, I would greatly appreciate hearing from any forum members who could shed light on the ability of current DNA analysis techniques to deal with source material that may have multiple donors.

 

[slovakguy]

...suppose, however, that the police in this scenario can assemble enough circumstantial evidence to convince the d.a. to pursue the matter before a grand jury. the grand jury (because the evidence does not have to prove the matter beyond the shadow of a doubt) believes there is enough evidence to push the matter to trial. the case goes forward and now you must decide if it has become necessary to provide that drop of blood or mouth swab or risk being sent to prison by a jury of your peers. here in the u.s., the state of illinois cleaned out death row because the state officials began to have doubts about the certainty of many inmates' guilt when dna analysis began to show that those convicted did not commit those crimes.

for j.u. & i.b., given the suspicions we all have for those in the peleton, if they wish to have their fans believe them, then submit to the test. if they don't care a fig for their fans, then they should listen to the lawyers. i figure in this world, if they refuse to have the test, there will still be fans silly enough to cheer them on and believe in their "purity." i am sadly in the camp which believes they are all racing hot until they show otherwise.

 

[Bro Deal]

For me, it really comes down to this question: Can mixing blood from two or more donors create a new genetic profile that could mistakenly be matched to a person who isn't one of the donors? If the answer is no, then I would absolutely submit to a DNA analysis if it gave me with a chance to reafirm my innocence to an increasingly suspicious public.

It would seem that any contamination would work in Basso's favor. That his lawyer is saying that Basso will never submit to a DNA test as long as he retains his services as a lawyer tells me that Basso is guilty. The same goes for Ullrich. I have a hard time condemning them when they were competing against Armstrong, who was doped to the eyeballs.

Both of them will also walk on the charges unless some kind of financial link can be proven. Since the national federation cannot conduct an investigation with subpoena power, I don't see how they can prove such a link. The real **** will hit the fan later when Fuentes starts talking. He seems like the type of guy that once his legal problems are cleared up he will only be too happy to get his name in the press by naming names.

 

[cyclingheroes]

It would seem that any contamination would work in Basso's favor. That his lawyer is saying that Basso will never submit to a DNA test as long as he retains his services as a lawyer tells me that Basso is guilty. The same goes for Ullrich. I have a hard time condemning them when they were competing against Armstrong, who was doped to the eyeballs.

Both of them will also walk on the charges unless some kind of financial link can be proven. Since the national federation cannot conduct an investigation with subpoena power, I don't see how they can prove such a link. The real **** will hit the fan later when Fuentes starts talking. He seems like the type of guy that once his legal problems are cleared up he will only be too happy to get his name in the press by naming names.

IMO the point is: McQuaid & co can't change the rules AFTER a case started and than bring it on in an older case. Oh well we want to charge a few guys but we don't have proof. Hmmm ok than they should proof their innocence. It can't work like that. Even now the UCI still didn't took over the French anti-doping system to avoid any Fuentes-like cases in the future, the German cycling federation did this week but the UCI still doesn't install the system on an international level... Why????? People like that shouldn't speak out as if theywere the big anti-doping fighters, they are not. They just want to see a few people hang, no matter what happends and than go over to business as usual....

 

[Bro Deal]

Why????? People like that shouldn't speak out as if theywere the big anti-doping fighters, they are not. They just want to see a few people hang, no matter what happends and than go over to business as usual....

That is exactly the case. The UCI is not truly interested in cleaning cycling up. They just want a few scapegoats to hang so they can point to them and say they are doing their jobs. With Basso and Ullrich it makes their claim even stronger. They can say they are willing to even sanction the biggest stars, conveniently fogetting that just a few months prior they paid for a bogus report to whitewash Armstrong's dope use.

I think with Hamilton's situation we see that the UCI is not interested in abiding by any set of rules. Hamilton served (almost) his two years that was given for an offense before the advent of the four year ProTour rule, he should be able to race again. But the UCI is going to do all in its power to prevent him from racing. They are acting like a banana republic. Even worse, the UCI's incompetence has now forced race organizers into applying their own capricious justice. We can see that with the recent exclusion of Danilo Hondo.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I agree 100%, although i find the way Hamilton behaved after his positive probe pretty anoying, if the ban is over, he should be allowed to race again. If the UCI doesn't want to see him race again they can't just change the rules afterwards. They can for future cases. Hondo: this is particular interesting since a Swiss civil court ruled that Hondo is allowed to race again. I don't like it that the UCI stands above the law (or better:they act like they would which could have consequenses - i don't think the Swiss court will accept the attitude of the UCI in Hondo's case). It's dangerous,it's - like Bro Deal posted - Banana republic.

That is exactly the case. The UCI is not truly interested in cleaning cycling up. They just want a few scapegoats to hang so they can point to them and say they are doing their jobs. With Basso and Ullrich it makes their claim even stronger. They can say they are willing to even sanction the biggest stars, conveniently fogetting that just a few months prior they paid for a bogus report to whitewash Armstrong's dope use.

I think with Hamilton's situation we see that the UCI is not interested in abiding by any set of rules. Hamilton served (almost) his two years that was given for an offense before the advent of the four year ProTour rule, he should be able to race again. But the UCI is going to do all in its power to prevent him from racing. They are acting like a banana republic. Even worse, the UCI's incompetence has now forced race organizers into applying their own capricious justice. We can see that with the recent exclusion of Danilo Hondo.

 

[acpinto]

New documents online at interpool.tv:

http://www.interpool.tv/downloads/dopingbericht_guardia_civil_akten_1.pdf

One of the documents is about number 1 getting bloodtransfusions in Hamburg on June 20, 2006. More and more German newspapers are starting to ask questions.The daily Hamburger Abendblatt doesn't think Ullrich was in Hamburg on June 20. The question is, if he wasn't... who is number 1?

i´m at work so i had to be brief when i looked at the Pdf.
2 documents capture my atention.
the 1st is the police relatory on the objects Jose luis merino batres had on the day he was captured.
The "famous list" is writen on the backside of a shellfish restaurant called "Rafa".
1st question:
Fuentes met with Merino and "told" him the codes and relative number, because as we can see the numbers are not in order ( that is there is no number 3, 7, 8,..)
This implies that he travels with a list( more plausive) or he knows by heart the relation between the code names and number ( less plausive).
2nd question:
The numbers should represent some kind of order, kind off who met Fuentes 1st is number one, i know it is not a request but would be easier for him.
How come the first two guys, are riders that don´t have a conection.
I would expect ulrich being nº1 sevillano( sevilla, right) be nº2 - teammates.

The fax to "nelson":
who blanked the number and why note de country code?
Doesn´t seem to you guys that Ulrich is there like being posted after fuentes signed.
why if like we saw in the restaurant card if there was a code number for each code name ( and fuentes did know it by heart or carried a list with him) why that same code number, although with the non-coded name remain unchanged.
Was this fax sended?
if this fax was sent, it was to a faxmachine that recives faxes to many people ( why in the name of god has writen on the 2nd line that Nelson will personally get the document- obvious behaviour to that someone that gets the fax doesn´t read it)
if so, why wasn´t coded or even a two sheet fax with a cover.

For me 2 very questionable documents. Don´t seem to stand a chance on court...

 

[cyclingheroes]

I am working on it.... but it's a slow process as i want to write a good article and it's a lot i have to analyze. The fax: your right i saw that as well (no codes and a multi-person used fax. And to answer your question: yes the fax was send.

i´m at work so i had to be brief when i looked at the Pdf.
2 documents capture my atention.
the 1st is the police relatory on the objects Jose luis merino batres had on the day he was captured.
The "famous list" is writen on the backside of a shellfish restaurant called "Rafa".
1st question:
Fuentes met with Merino and "told" him the codes and relative number, because as we can see the numbers are not in order ( that is there is no number 3, 7, 8,..)
This implies that he travels with a list( more plausive) or he knows by heart the relation between the code names and number ( less plausive).
2nd question:
The numbers should represent some kind of order, kind off who met Fuentes 1st is number one, i know it is not a request but would be easier for him.
How come the first two guys, are riders that don´t have a conection.
I would expect ulrich being nº1 sevillano( sevilla, right) be nº2 - teammates.

The fax to "nelson":
who blanked the number and why note de country code?
Doesn´t seem to you guys that Ulrich is there like being posted after fuentes signed.
why if like we saw in the restaurant card if there was a code number for each code name ( and fuentes did know it by heart or carried a list with him) why that same code number, although with the non-coded name remain unchanged.
Was this fax sended?
if this fax was sent, it was to a faxmachine that recives faxes to many people ( why in the name of god has writen on the 2nd line that Nelson will personally get the document- obvious behaviour to that someone that gets the fax doesn´t read it)
if so, why wasn´t coded or even a two sheet fax with a cover.

For me 2 very questionable documents. Don´t seem to stand a chance on court...

 

[acpinto]

I am working on it.... but it's a slow process as i want to write a good article and it's a lot i have to analyze. The fax: your right i saw that as well (no codes and a multi-person used fax. And to answer your question: yes the fax was send.

Tanks for the clarification.
Hope to read your article soon.
There more questions going throw my head, Valv., Manolo and vinoukurov...
Maybee you, with a better prespective ( knowledge and inside view ), can clariy all the questions or make even dampier ( raise more questions )

edit:
just to help or maybee you already thought of that.
Do you Know who´s the owner of the fax?
Because looking second time at the fax the blacking of the numbers looks like was made by the police or someone to preserve image of a corporation/company

 

[cyclingheroes]

Tanks for the clarification.
Hope to read your article soon.
There more questions going throw my head, Valv., Manolo and vinoukurov...
Maybee you, with a better prespective ( knowledge and inside view ), can clariy all the questions or make even dampier ( raise more questions )

edit:
just to help or maybee you already thought of that.
Do you Know who´s the owner of the fax?
Because looking second time at the fax the blacking of the numbers looks like was made by the police or someone to preserve image of a corporation/company

It takes so long because the deeper i get into the story the more questions i have...

The fax was send by Dr. Fuentes.

 

[acpinto]

It takes so long because the deeper i get into the story the more questions i have...

The fax was send by Dr. Fuentes.

to who? not nelson, the owner of the fax number? (it looks like 57 52499411 or 5752499111) bottom line: who is nelson´s employer for the fax to be sent without codification. ( couldn´t find on the web although got to know its colombia and 5 is also an indicator/district number)

 

[limerickman]

That is exactly the case. The UCI is not truly interested in cleaning cycling up. They just want a few scapegoats to hang so they can point to them and say they are doing their jobs. With Basso and Ullrich it makes their claim even stronger. They can say they are willing to even sanction the biggest stars, conveniently fogetting that just a few months prior they paid for a bogus report to whitewash Armstrong's dope use.

I think with Hamilton's situation we see that the UCI is not interested in abiding by any set of rules. Hamilton served (almost) his two years that was given for an offense before the advent of the four year ProTour rule, he should be able to race again. But the UCI is going to do all in its power to prevent him from racing. They are acting like a banana republic. Even worse, the UCI's incompetence has now forced race organizers into applying their own capricious justice. We can see that with the recent exclusion of Danilo Hondo.

You hit on a good point.

The role of the UCI ?
Is the UCI's role to market cycling ? Is the UCI's role to govern cycling ?
Is the UCI's role something else ?

Personally I think the UCI is the root of the problems invading our sport.
A culture of doping tolerance was allowed to take hold - and when the sport was on it's knees in 1998 - the UCI had the chance then to act decisively.
The UCI chose to not act decisively then - and we're now in this present situation.

Of course the UCI isn't interested in a cleanup.
The UCI think that cyclists riding faster times will encourage people to watch
the sport.
Athletics made the same error - and look where it is at now.

I think the sport - under the stewardship of the UCI - is incapable of self regulation.

 

[acpinto]

You hit on a good point.

The role of the UCI ?
Is the UCI's role to market cycling ? Is the UCI's role to govern cycling ?
Is the UCI's role something else ?

Personally I think the UCI is the root of the problems invading our sport.
A culture of doping tolerance was allowed to take hold - and when the sport was on it's knees in 1998 - the UCI had the chance then to act decisively.
The UCI chose to not act decisively then - and we're now in this present situation.

Of course the UCI isn't interested in a cleanup.
The UCI think that cyclists riding faster times will encourage people to watch
the sport.
Athletics made the same error - and look where it is at now.

I think the sport - under the stewardship of the UCI - is incapable of self regulation.

When the lie spreads( everyone doesn´t dope - past years) then you can´t break the news that everyone dopes, you have to try to clean up calmly having some riders penalised as an example.

I do not agree with this procedure but i think that is required for the dollars to keep entering the machine (pro-tour).