Full marks to Ullrich

[Ingemar Svensso]

Ed Hill <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Tyler was also up at the front helping keep things simma'd down.
>
> You are mistaken, Tyler was only grandstanding. Afterall, if Jan had slowed down then Tyler
> wouldn't have been able to right to the front since Tyler was sucking wind hanging onto the back
> of the group at that point.
>
> Ed

Tyler Hamilton had no business telling the others what to do or not
do. Everyone rides after their own head. There was no reason for him to get up there, noone of the
others attacked so they all showed the sportsmanship required in this situation. Even if someone
had attacked that's none of Tylers business either. Every rider has to make their own mind up
about what to do and what not to do. If someone breaks an unwritten rule then it's their problem
not Tylers.

 

[Mikkel Gybel Je]

"Ingemar Svensson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Tyler Hamilton had no business telling the others what to do or not
> do. Everyone rides after their own head.

Tyler has all the right in the world to telle the others what to do! However, they each have the
right to ignore his suggestion to slow it down and obey the unwritten rules. So, they could have
attacked, and of course they would have had to suffer the consequences afterwards, when every rider
in the peloton would have watched them and never allowed them to ride away again...

- Mikkel
--
Mikkel Gybel Jensen http://home.tiscali.dk/~mgj http://www.pcarlp.dk http://www.rumfart.dk

 

[Robert Lange]

Bob Schwartz schrieb:

[ not to sprint if you didn't helped with the pace ]

> You would only do that if the placing had no value

I don't feel like that 2nd place has a real value for Mayo. Neither did it help him significantly in
the GC nor did it improve his popularity.

 

[Robert Lange]

Clovis Lark schrieb:

> Could you find me a quote where Ullrich feels robbed?

That would be a very untypical quote. Ullrich never appeared to be a whiner, doesn't blame others
when he didn't succeed.

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Robert Lange <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bob Schwartz schrieb:

> [ not to sprint if you didn't helped with the pace ]

>> You would only do that if the placing had no value

> I don't feel like that 2nd place has a real value for Mayo. Neither did it help him significantly
> in the GC nor did it improve his popularity.

Well, it certainly doesn't have the value for him that it did for Ullrich. But he still has people
he is looking to hold off in the 2nd TT.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Keith <[email protected]> wrote:
>>A number of years ago I was at a clinic given by ex-Euro pro Joe Parkin

> Joe who?

Joe rode for TVM and Tulip for a number of years. It is true he was never a front line star.

The point of my post was that riders do what their DS tells them to do if they want to keep their
jobs. And no DS is going to tell a rider that it is OK to reward someone who is a poor sprinter. And
no DS is going to hand a gift to someone just out of the goodness of their hearts. You might do that
as a favor that you might expect to call in later. But certainly not for any stupid reason like the
other guy did all the work.

>>when the subject of sprinting after sitting in came up. This concept of sprinting honor does not
>>exist and never has. If someone sits on your wheel and comes around at the end it is your fault
>>for not being smart or strong enough to drop them. If it happens because you have GC concerns then
>>too bad for you.
>>
>>He made it very clear that he never rode for a director who would not have skinned him alive of he
>>had been able to come around someone after not pulling and declined out of some sense of honor.
>>You would only do that if the placing had no value, i.e. you don't sprint from the autobus.

> Sounds like his poor ethics didn't help him make a name for himseld.

He did what his DS told him to do. Make no mistake about that.

Since you're so certain this sort of thing is out of line, why don't you give us all an example
where someone declined to take a win after sitting on because it just wasn't right. Training rides
don't count.

How much **** do you think Indurain got from his DS after he sat on Lemond's wheel all the way up to
Luz Ardiden and then took the win? None? That'd be my guess.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[H Squared]

Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
> Robert Lange <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Bob Schwartz schrieb:
>
>
> > I don't feel like that 2nd place has a real value for Mayo. Neither did it help him
> > significantly in the GC nor did it improve his popularity.
>
> Well, it certainly doesn't have the value for him that it did for Ullrich. But he still has people
> he is looking to hold off in the 2nd TT.
>

i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way. phil and
paul mentioned a few days back that winning that is a big deal for them & if the time bonuses count
towards that competition, i could see why they would try to beat ullrich to the line.

h

 

[Robert Chung]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
> Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way.

CSC is leading the team competition. Euskaltel is second.

 

[Salvatore Jenko]

"h squared" wrote ...
>
> i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
> Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way.

Actually, they are the strongest team, but ranked 2nd behind CSC because of Piil's 20 min escape.
They want the team's competition to secure a spot in next year's tour. But their strategy so far has
been deeply lame. Instead of sending guys on the attack, instead of trying to open gaps go CSC
riders (and also to Vino if they truely want the podium) they just suck wheels. Think how more
interesting yesterday's stage would have been had they keep the pace in the front group and don't
allow Vinokourov and 10 other riders to join them before Luz Ardiden. Armstrong falls? They have a
valid excuse for not waiting. Ullrich wants second place? They are also entitled to sprint. But no,
plain wheelsucking for 4th place.

Oh, and time bonuses do not count for the team competition.

Jenko (disappointed, but still hope they do some real racing tomorrow)

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

> The point of my post was that riders do what their DS tells them to do if they want to keep their
> jobs. And no DS is going to tell a rider that it is OK to reward someone who is a poor sprinter.
> And no DS is going to hand a gift to someone just out of the goodness of their hearts. You might
> do that as a favor that you might expect to call in later. But certainly not for any stupid reason
> like the other guy did all the work.

It's a little slap in the face that isn't forgotten.

> Since you're so certain this sort of thing is out of line, why don't you give us all an example
> where someone declined to take a win after sitting on because it just wasn't right.

All you have to do is look at the cases where riders sat on but didn't contest the sprint, and there
was no sprint. They simply let the lead rider continue to lead over the line. Happens all the time.

-WG

 

[Arthur Clune]

h squared <[email protected]> wrote:

: i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
: Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way.

This is a big deal for them because the winner of the team comp gets an automatic invite for next
years Tour and they only got in on a last minute wild card last year.

Arthur

 

[Clovis Lark]

Arthur Clune <[email protected]> wrote:
> h squared <[email protected]> wrote:

> : i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
> : Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way.

> This is a big deal for them because the winner of the team comp gets an automatic invite for next
> years Tour and they only got in on a last minute wild card last year.

CSC is in first, but E - E halved the distance yesterday.

> Arthur

 

[H Squared]

Robert Chung wrote:
>
> "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday, but i know that Euskaltel -
> > Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the team competition and wants to keep it that way.
>
> CSC is leading the team competition. Euskaltel is second.

yeah, thanks, robert. one of these times i'll learn to distinguish between the daily results and the
overall results. disregarding that, like i do all of my mistakes, i still find the t.c. a semi
plausible motivation for e-e's actions yesterday.

heather

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Robert Chung wrote:
> >
> > "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday,
but
> > > i know that Euskaltel - Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the
team
> > > competition and wants to keep it that way.
> >
> > CSC is leading the team competition. Euskaltel is second.
>
> yeah, thanks, robert. one of these times i'll learn to distinguish between the daily results and
> the overall results. disregarding that, like i do all of my mistakes, i still find the t.c. a semi
> plausible motivation for e-e's actions yesterday.

If time bonuses don't count into the team competition, then the rationale for Mayo to be pipping
Ullrich in the name of the team competition is zero.

 

[H Squared]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
>
>
> If time bonuses don't count into the team competition, then the rationale for Mayo to be pipping
> Ullrich in the name of the team competition is zero.

this is true. i don't know if they count or not. are you saying that they don't? that's one reason i
threw this subject out there, cause i was sure that someone would both know and want to tell.

it seems strange to me that they would count towards the individual general classification, but not
towards the team general classification, but then bike racing rules don't always make sense to me. h

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > If time bonuses don't count into the team competition, then the
rationale
> > for Mayo to be pipping Ullrich in the name of the team competition is
zero.
>
> this is true. i don't know if they count or not. are you saying that they don't? that's one reason
> i threw this subject out there, cause i was sure that someone would both know and want to tell.
>
> it seems strange to me that they would count towards the individual general classification,
> but not towards the team general classification, but then bike racing rules don't always make
> sense to me.

Typically, top three finishes per day per team count towards team GC.

Cumulative Individual GC doesn't count. If the last place rider (on individual GC) is one of the
team's top 3 finishers on a given day, his time is scored, for that day.

capiche?

 

[David Ryan]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Robert Chung wrote:
> > >
> > > "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday,
> but
> > > > i know that Euskaltel - Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the
> team
> > > > competition and wants to keep it that way.
> > >
> > > CSC is leading the team competition. Euskaltel is second.
> >
> > yeah, thanks, robert. one of these times i'll learn to distinguish between the daily results and
> > the overall results. disregarding that, like i do all of my mistakes, i still find the t.c. a
> > semi plausible motivation for e-e's actions yesterday.
>
> If time bonuses don't count into the team competition, then the rationale for Mayo to be pipping
> Ullrich in the name of the team competition is zero.

Stage 15

1 Euskaltel - Euskadi 13.32.50 2 US Postal - Berry Floor 1.37

2 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.40 4.30.06 (-12) 4 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
0.40 4.30.06 13 Roberto Laiseka (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.12 4.32.38
13.32.50

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal-Berry Floor 4.29.26 (-20) 9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) US
Postal-Berry Floor 2.45 4.32.11 15 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.24 4.32.50
14.37 13.34.27 So obviously bonuses don't count.

 

[David Ryan]

David Ryan wrote:
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> > "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Chung wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > >
> > > > > i'm not sure if this actually factored into what happened yesterday,
> > but
> > > > > i know that Euskaltel - Euskadi (thank god for c&p) is leading the
> > team
> > > > > competition and wants to keep it that way.
> > > >
> > > > CSC is leading the team competition. Euskaltel is second.
> > >
> > > yeah, thanks, robert. one of these times i'll learn to distinguish between the daily results
> > > and the overall results. disregarding that, like i do all of my mistakes, i still find the
> > > t.c. a semi plausible motivation for e-e's actions yesterday.
> >
> > If time bonuses don't count into the team competition, then the rationale for Mayo to be pipping
> > Ullrich in the name of the team competition is zero.
>
> Stage 15
>
> 1 Euskaltel - Euskadi 13.32.50 2 US Postal - Berry Floor 1.37
>
> 2 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.40 4.30.06 (-12) 4 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
> 0.40 4.30.06 13 Roberto Laiseka (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.12 4.32.38
> 13.32.50
>
> 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal-Berry Floor 4.29.26 (-20) 9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) US
> Postal-Berry Floor 2.45 4.32.11 15 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.24 4.32.50
> 1.37 13.34.27

Stage 14 GC 3 Euskaltel - Euskadi 12.24 4 US Postal - Berry Floor 17.57 (+5.33)

Stage 15 GC 2 Euskaltel - Euskadi 6.58 3 US Postal - Berry Floor 14.08 (+7.10) (+1.37)

Sorry I didn't carry it far enough. But now it's obvious that bonuses don't count

 

[H Squared]

i thought of using your method, but the math seemed too hard. luckily henry came thru and actually
answered one of my questions about bike racing and saved me from doing it. thanks though! heather

David Ryan wrote:
>

> Stage 15
>
> 1 Euskaltel - Euskadi 13.32.50 2 US Postal - Berry Floor 1.37
>
> 2 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.40 4.30.06 (-12) 4 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
> 0.40 4.30.06 13 Roberto Laiseka (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.12 4.32.38
> 13.32.50
>
> 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal-Berry Floor 4.29.26 (-20) 9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) US
> Postal-Berry Floor 2.45 4.32.11 15 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.24 4.32.50
> 1.37 13.34.27 So obviously bonuses don't count.

 

[Precious Pup]

warren wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The point of my post was that riders do what their DS tells them to do if they want to keep
> > their jobs. And no DS is going to tell a rider that it is OK to reward someone who is a poor
> > sprinter. And no DS is going to hand a gift to someone just out of the goodness of their hearts.
> > You might do that as a favor that you might expect to call in later. But certainly not for any
> > stupid reason like the other guy did all the work.
>
> It's a little slap in the face that isn't forgotten.

It depends. If someone wants to pull someone else to the line, whose fault is that? I mean, the
whole idea of killing a break (for *your* team's tactical reasons) is to sit someone on it till the
"workers" finally decide it tactically doesn't make sense for them and their teams because they will
get beaten in the end. To put some sort of "that isn't nice to beat me like that" defeats the
essence of the "sit on it to kill it" tactic. The very real threat of dusting them at the end is why
the tactic is used in the first place. If the worker bee is too stupid to figure that out, I suggest
you get on their wheel till they do figure it out.

Say I'm sort of average, like domestique quality, by my team has a great sprinter. It would be my
job to get in breaks, work them a bit, then either kill them for my sprinter teamate or *win*. If
I'm average, I can only win by forcing the strong dudes to grind themselves to dust. That's bike
racing. It is one reason why I

'em; I will contribute only to the extent I think it helps me or my team. It is a hard lesson to
learn to not be coaxed into always "pulling through" out of some sense of duty, but it is a lesson
that must be learned if one hopes to ever graduate from Cat3dom.

> > Since you're so certain this sort of thing is out of line, why don't you give us all an example
> > where someone declined to take a win after sitting on because it just wasn't right.
>
> All you have to do is look at the cases where riders sat on but didn't contest the sprint, and
> there was no sprint. They simply let the lead rider continue to lead over the line. Happens all
> the time.

That's for a reason though. I guarantee you that two teams that had no contenders in any of the
tours "categories," would insist that each their riders try to win the stage. On the other hand, it
would be bad form for a Postie that had been sitting on a break all day (for tactical reasons) to
sprint past the others that had made the break a success.

"Cheating" the others out of a "minor" win when you've got a great shot at the grand prize is a good
way to make enemies and leads perhaps to justifiable "negative racing" (payback). We are all under
unwritten social constraints all the time, this is another of them. But these are the complexities
of multi-day tour/stage racing, not really one-days. The only exception there is probably a possible
agreement with a "futures contract."