"Functional" threshold - improvement & elite levels



robkit

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Dec 11, 2003
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i recently started a thread about VO2max in which we were discussing levels associated with elite riders and how much improvement is feasible from a given starting point.

i am also interested in the same issues related to functional threshold - lets think in terms of the average heart rate a rider can maintain for a 20 minute steady state effort as a percentage of max.

in fact i've just finishesd such an effort on the turbo - average heart rate 188, which relates to my max of 205 at 92%. since my VO2max was achieved at max HR then clearly its 92% "useable" on this time period.

how much can this percentage be improved and how close to 100% is it possible to go? the guy who did my VO2 max test suggested he had seen elite athletes who'm he couldnt force over threshold/anaerobic, even at max hr, but i'm not sure if that is a possibility or a result of the test methodology (gas exchange analysis rather than looking for accelleration in blood lactate accumulation)

can any coaches comment on threshold levels seen in their elite subjects?


i think its valuable knowing what can be expected and what is possible in terms of threshold and VO2max improvements and max levels because people can then make decisions about which it may be more fruitful to work on given their starting levels.

thanks.
 
I'm a little confused by the phrasing of your questions. If I'm reading you correctly, then the metric will be 20-min avg HR. Your current level is 92% of MHR and you're wondering how much improvement could be realized. Would you consider >92% an improvement, or <92% of MHR to be an improvement. You ask how close someone could come to 100%, but is that an improvement (higher HR for longer time)?

You're stumbling into a major paradox in using HR to assess fitness. People would typically associate a *lower* HR with a *higher* fitness, and that's only applicable when riding at the same power (if even then). If your average HR had been 195 instead of 188, would you consider that better? How would that relate to the speed of the turbo?

Not sure how you're expecting to relate your questions to fitness. :confused:
 
ng endurance
robkit said:
i recently started a thread about VO2max in which we were discussing levels associated with elite riders and how much improvement is feasible from a given starting point.

i am also interested in the same issues related to functional threshold - lets think in terms of the average heart rate a rider can maintain for a 20 minute steady state effort as a percentage of max.

in fact i've just finishesd such an effort on the turbo - average heart rate 188, which relates to my max of 205 at 92%. since my VO2max was achieved at max HR then clearly its 92% "useable" on this time period.

how much can this percentage be improved and how close to 100% is it possible to go? the guy who did my VO2 max test suggested he had seen elite athletes who'm he couldnt force over threshold/anaerobic, even at max hr, but i'm not sure if that is a possibility or a result of the test methodology (gas exchange analysis rather than looking for accelleration in blood lactate accumulation)

can any coaches comment on threshold levels seen in their elite subjects?


i think its valuable knowing what can be expected and what is possible in terms of threshold and VO2max improvements and max levels because people can then make decisions about which it may be more fruitful to work on given their starting levels.

thanks.
Hi, Robkit. I suggest you take a gander at this website:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

And especially this article, recently suggested to me in another thread by, I believe, frenchyge:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm

To badly summarize, according to this guy, you're mostly done making vo2max improvements after a few months, while lactate threshold is more sport-specific, and can be trained for several years. In sports where technique can sufficiently improve efficiency, efficiency can be improved throughout ones life; however, cycling doesn't appear to be such a sport. The machine constrains you to being somewhat efficient, so we can't get as much from technique as, e.g., swimmers or runners can.

They fellow maintaining the website is a rower. I would be curious if Ric and Andy could weigh in on the applicability of these insights to cycling...
 
kmavm said:
ng endurance Hi, Robkit. I suggest you take a gander at this website:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

And especially this article, recently suggested to me in another thread by, I believe, frenchyge:

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm

To badly summarize, according to this guy, you're mostly done making vo2max improvements after a few months, while lactate threshold is more sport-specific, and can be trained for several years. In sports where technique can sufficiently improve efficiency, efficiency can be improved throughout ones life; however, cycling doesn't appear to be such a sport. The machine constrains you to being somewhat efficient, so we can't get as much from technique as, e.g., swimmers or runners can.

They fellow maintaining the website is a rower. I would be curious if Ric and Andy could weigh in on the applicability of these insights to cycling...

On this chart VO2max growth almost plateaued after ~6 months after really significant VO2max training. That means a lot of volume, e.g. 6 months of 5-6 hrs/day. The lesser the training volume the longer it takes to reach your potential VO2max and there is strong probability that you will never reach your genetic VO2max with low training volumes. I'm not a scientist but I've got evidences from lab testings that VO2max grows for years with steady training volume ~8 hrs/week.
 
dot said:
On this chart VO2max growth almost plateaued after ~6 months after really significant VO2max training. That means a lot of volume, e.g. 6 months of 5-6 hrs/day. The lesser the training volume the longer it takes to reach your potential VO2max and there is strong probability that you will never reach your genetic VO2max with low training volumes. I'm not a scientist but I've got evidences from lab testings that VO2max grows for years with steady training volume ~8 hrs/week.

i think youre right. the analysis that was done on lance armstrong suggested that, after returning to near sedentary levels during the cancer episode, it took only 6 months of serious training to return to his long time max. serious training means 3-6 hours, most days. it would surely be a very different story if he had done 10 hours a week.
 
Hello,

from what I've read VO2 max increases rapidly over the first 6 months, slowly over the next 6 months, and can be increased further by use of altitude training/hypoxic training after that, or somewhat by a further intensification of high intensity intervals. VO2 max only increases rapidly and to maximum if one does specific VO2 max training. VO2 max can be increased maximally with 3 workouts a week of just a few 3-5 minute intervals per workout total training time of 3-4 hrs a week of around 85-120% of VO2 max. Increasing efficiency is very possible and elite riders show very high efficiencies measured as watts per liter per minute O2 consumed. What that means is that elite riders get more watts out of their oxygen use than non-elite riders. The long rides (involving the bulk of training time) that elite road cyclists do increases efficiency and submaximal performance and has no effect on VO2 max.

-Bikeguy
 
from what I've read VO2 max increases rapidly over the first 6 months...
No doubt about it. I did my first race in 5 years yesterday. A 15 lap Cat 4 race on a flatish 1.3 mile circuit. I finished with the main group (my only goal really), it was a sprint finish. I have been training 3 1/2 months so far this year. When i started back then, 14mph @ 250+ lbs was a real intense effort. I didnt last more the 7 miles on my first ride. My lactate threshold was probably around 85% of MHR of 178 (im 42). I've only worked on endurace, tempo and weight loss for these 3.5 months. I only started really adding hill efforts and cruise type intervals the last couple of weeks. No sprints or anything that intense yet. Lots of recovery and better diet and sleep. I've lost over 40+ lbs so far but im still 30+ lbs heavier than i want to be for the 2006 season and im stil 20 over where i was when i stopped in 2000.

Anyway enough of the backstory. The stats from my race as recorded on my Polar 725.

Race time: 49 min
Race dist: 20.2
Avg Spd: 24.6
Max Spd: 37.5

Avg heart rate: 166 (my perceived effort for the whole race was a 7-8/10)
Max heart rate: 181

Given these numbers it would seem that i have improved quite significantly my LT to 92% of max HR. I was aerobic the entire race with the exception of the jumps out of the saddle and the charge for the line at the end. At my best years ago,my LT was 93% of MHR. I had a higher max HR in 2000 of 190bpm, so maybe that helped. I think it may be possible in the next 6 months to squeak out a little more either by raising my MHR or training the VO2 max by lossing more weight and doing a more structured training plan.