funny things to do on a bike



Frank Krygowski wrote:

> Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> I have always had trouble
>> understanding how you can tax an economy into recovery.

>
>
> And I have always had trouble understanding why people making hundreds
> of thousands of dollars per year need to pay less taxes.


How do you figure they are paying "less taxes?" Less than who and by
how much? What moron, rich, poor, or otherwise, wouldn't like to pay
less taxes?

Your view isn't surprising since some of that wealth redistribution ends
up in your very own pocket as a state university employee. Special
interest groups really do look after their own interests. This is why
you want taxes to at least be untouchable and unquestionable.

Instead of justifying the taxes _to begin with_, which is the proper
approach, you prefer to presume that the government is the warden of the
people: over and above them. This is an abomination to free people.

> Unless, of course, one is hoping to garner
> political contributions from them.


Name one politician who stands a chance in hell of winning a
presidential election without getting large contributions from those
able to make them.

>> Read it and weep...
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25175-2004Mar25.html

>
>
> What specific part of that did you find objectionable? Are you saying
> he should not cut corporate taxes? That doesn't sound like your usual
> position!


Wow.
 
Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> OK then - you should have NO problem citing all the many, many, many
>>>> ways the administration "implied" that there is a connection.
>>>
>>>http://www.lunaville.org/WMD/ALQ_UGGAB.aspx

>>
>> Funny, not once did I see 9/11 mentioned anywhere on that page.

>
>Ah. So when GWB and Cheney were pointing out the supposed links between
>Al Qaeda and Saddam, they were specifically *not* implying a link
>between Saddam and Al Qaeda's most infamous act? Somehow, all the
>assistance Saddam was supposed to be giving was sufficiently
>compartmentalised so that it didn't help Al Qaeda fly planes into the
>World Trade Center? And that they had no intention that people would
>think that?
>
>You're pathetic.


And you're grasping at straws, and trying to change the subject. The
administration has never linked 9/11 and Iraq, and never used that as
an "excuse for war", contrary to your contention.

There is no doubt that Iraq DID openly support terrorist
organizations, and that may or may not have included Al Qaeda
(certainly a lot of pre-war intelligence suggested that it did).

Or perhaps I'm not understanding your point - it seems YOU are trying
your best to link 9/11 with Iraq. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> [email protected] (Chalo) wrote:
>>
>> >"Toxic particulates, gases, and vapors (such as uranium metal fume,
>> >oxides of uranium, hydrogen fluoride, carbon monoxide, and dangerous
>> >radioactive materials) may be released when uranium or an insoluble
>> >uranium compound decomposes...

>>
>> But we're talking about depleted uranium, which is inherently stable.
>>
>> >"Use graphite chips, carbon dust, asbestos blankets, or flooding with
>> >water to extinguish small uranium fires. There is no effective way to
>> >extinguish large uranium fires.

>>
>> Sounds like magnesium (or even titanium)

>
>Or aluminum, or many other finely powdered metals.


Or corn...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
bicyclette <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> In the end, the US voters will have a choice in November to decide how
>> to deal with the terrorist threat. We can move back to the Carter /
>> Clinton approach of treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue,
>> reacting (mildly) only when attacked. Or we can continue to dismantle
>> state support for terrorism by letting dictators know that they could
>> be next on the list. Either terrorism is a bunch of individual
>> crimes, or it's a war. That's pretty much the choice.

>
>It's not a black and white issue. The US popularity is about 5-10%
>around the world (including allies). It's easy to go kick someone's
>butt. When you have childish idealists who are inexperienced/immature
>Christians leading the only superpower (by default) the results are
>pretty plain to see.


US "popularity" has always sucked (particularly among those whose butt
was saved by the US, strangely enough). Thankfully world politics
isn't a popularity contest.

I'll take a "childish" Winston Churchill approach to a
"experienced/mature" Neville Chamberlain approach every time.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
ML <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:


>> We went BACK to war with a country that had attacked its peaceful
>> neighbors twice. We did so because that country blatantly broke the
>> terms of the cease fire that postponed the end of the war for over 12
>> years. We did so because that country openly supported terrorists,
>> tried to assassinate an ex-president, and had admitted large stores of
>> WMD for which there was no current accounting.


>You can't attack a country because of what they did 5, 10, or 20 years
>ago. That's stupid.


Great. So the plan for dictators is to do whatever they want, sign a
cease fire after the retribution starts, ignore the terms of the cease
fire for only 5 or 10 years, and then the statute of limitations runs
out and they'll never be held accountable for anything they agreed to
in the cease fire. Brilliant!

> As far as the WMD, it was quite obvious to me from
>the start that our administration was going to war no matter what
>happened with the search for the weapons. I believe it was
>predetermined by this administration that Saddam was "goin' down!" no
>matter what. Grudge match, 2004.


Can you imagine the administration NOT having plans to take Saddam
down? He had never lived up to the terms of the 1991 cease fire, and
was seen by the Clinton administration as the "biggest security
threat" to the US.

> If you are so worried about the links
>to terrorism, then why aren't you complaining that we didn't finish the
>job in Afghanistan. That's where we should be. We aren't there,
>despite having people there.


The tens of thousands of troops there will be relieved that they're
not really there. They may have to wonder where they are though.

> George had his eye on Saddam and that was
>where the ball game was going to be played. Afghanistan was a diversion
>that was not worth our governments time to finish correctly.


What would you have done differently, and why do we need another
100,000 troops in Afghanistan?

>I agree it's a war. Unfortunately, we can't win it on our own. This is
>a world situation that will take a united world to win. It's us vs
>them, and "us" is not just the U.S.


On that we agree. Once the world stops playing politics and agrees
that terrorism must be eliminated, we might get somewhere. The
coalition members understand this - hopefully those other countries
who are now no longer on Saddam's payroll will join in soon.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote...


>Let me quote you:
>
>"I rarely listen to Rush, but he is hugely entertaining. And let's
>not
>forget that the fact that Rush says something doesn't make it untrue
>(though when he states a fact, it probably means it's something you
>won't hear on the evening news with Dan Rather)."
>
>You didn't say "fact", you said "something."


I said both, actually...

>Even when Rush states
>facts, they are spun in such a way to make sure it plays well to his
>audience. I listen to him every day, mostly because of the brain-dead
>listeners who call in. I love hearing the dittoheads reguritate what
>they just heard Rush say. It's so hilarious. In any case, your
>implication that Dan Rather covers up facts, while Rush somehow
>exposes them proves EXACTLY what I said above - if Rush says it, it
>must be So(tm).


Your logic escapes me. I said what I said, nothing more.

Did I imply that Rush is likely to state *facts* that Dan Rather
won't? You bet I did (I doubt you'd bother to try to deny that). I
was not implying that the statement of facts was mutually exclusive to
one (or the other), but that Rush brings up information you won't get
from Dan Rather (and vice versa).

>If Rush states a fact, it's a fact. It's a fact no matter who states
>it. Even Dan Rather. But when he says "something", I have to assume
>that it's spun to the right, and may or may not contain "facts."
>Truth be told, when he says "something" it might just be his opinion,
>and not true in the least.


Sigh... if it makes you feel better, change "probably" to "often" in
my statement. Can we drop this rabbit trail now, please?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] (JP) wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote ...
>> [email protected] (JP) wrote:


>Says who? They gave lots more to the Republicans, and more to Bush
>than anybody, but the fact that they were buying a few Democrats at
>the same time doesn't make it okay. What an empty argument!


It only says that either both parties were guilty, if accepting money
from Enron was a "crime" (it wasn't).

>> The reduction in mercury emissions from US power plants, for example.
>> Clinton was being sued by environmental groups over his lack of any
>> action on the issue. Bush actually got legislation passed to reduce
>> mercury emissions by 70% over the next 10 or so years.

>
>Says who? Typically when you look into stuff like this coming from the
>Bush White House their claims are based on calculations that are based
>on assumptions that are unlikely to hold true in practice, or they
>have created standards that are above current emissions levels.


Why not argue with the facts rather than trying to set up an amazingly
unstable straw man. Did Clinton do anything to reduce mercury
emissions? Did Bush pass legislation that will reduce them by 70%
(I'll give you a hint - no/yes).

>> Clinton joined Bush and the (then) Democratic congress in unanimously
>> rejecting ratification of the Kyoto accord.

>
>My memory of Kyoto was that Clinton signed but it did not submit it to
>Congress because he did not have the votes to get it passed.


Your recollection was wrong. Congress has to pass it before it can be
signed by the president (95-0 is a little beyond "not having the
votes" at any rate).

>> >Speaking of True Believers, have you sent in your job application to
>> >Kellogg Brown & Root yet? Since everything is going just peachy in
>> >Iraq you should be jumping to get over there and lend a hand.

>>
>> I actually did apply for a position that would have taken me to Iraq,
>> FWIW. I didn't get the job. Happy?

>
>Did you apply for something for which you were QUALIFIED?


Very much so.

>> Errrr, you seem to have left "recession" and "war" out of the reasons
>> for the reduction in tax revenue.

>
>No, those were also reasons- reasons not to give the ultrawealthy such
>huge taxcuts.


The tax cuts were designed to increase investment, to turn around a
stalling economy. They worked (obviously).

>> I have always had trouble
>> understanding how you can tax an economy into recovery.

>
>When you state it like that, I'm not surprised that you can't
>understand how the government stimulates the economy with a
>combination of targeted taxcuts and spending:
>
>1. Give taxcuts to the people who need the money and will spend it.


So far, I agree (though would add "or invest it")

>2. Increase government spending in ways that will stimulate the
>economy.


Here's where we part company, in most cases. At any rate, Bush HAS
increased government spending (even without including military
spending).

>Bush did very little of either.


I'd say history has proven you wrong on that already.

>> >2. Kerry has promised to rollback most of the portions of the Bush
>> >taxcuts that benefit the ultrawealthy.

>>
>> He's been pretty vague on that - sometimes only the top couple
>> percent, other times "the Bush tax cut".

>
>I don't know what you mean by vague- he's going to repeal the Bush
>taxcuts for people making over $200k/year.


I've heard him imply both... but that's a rabbit trail so I'll let it
drop.

>> I don't think anyone should
>> have to pay more taxes as a percentage than the rich already do -
>> though I know we will have to agree to disagree on that.

>
>Since we can't balance the budget with tax rates like they are, what
>do you propose then, raising taxes on the bottom 95%? Cut Social
>Security benefits so that we can afford those taxcuts?


There are two elements to generating tax revenue. Income and tax
rates. They are directly proportional. You increase tax revenues by
either increasing the tax rate OR by increasing the earnings. If you
can stimulate the economy out of a recession by lowering the tax rate,
ultimately the growth in the economy will produce increased tax
revenues (I didn't buy that when Reagan first proposed turning around
the Carter economy, but have obviously seen the light).

>> >Give me a reference on Kerry's so-called taxcuts for businesses and
>> >we'll talk specifics- if you dare.

>>
>> Read it and weep...
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25175-2004Mar25.html

>
>I knew it:
>
>"Kerry will offer a trade: He would cut taxes on U.S. corporations in
>exchange for forfeiting current tax benefits for moving money and jobs
>overseas."
>
>Are you saying that you are opposed to that idea?


Nope. Are you still saying that Kerry didn't say he was going to cut
taxes on business?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>>Ah. So when GWB and Cheney were pointing out the supposed links between
>>Al Qaeda and Saddam, they were specifically *not* implying a link
>>between Saddam and Al Qaeda's most infamous act? Somehow, all the
>>assistance Saddam was supposed to be giving was sufficiently
>>compartmentalised so that it didn't help Al Qaeda fly planes into the
>>World Trade Center? And that they had no intention that people would
>>think that?
>>
>>You're pathetic.

>
> And you're grasping at straws, and trying to change the subject. The
> administration has never linked 9/11 and Iraq


Jesus ****ing Christ. I know you believe that. I'm telling you that you
have to either a shill for Bush or dumb as a bag of rocks to think that
claiming a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda doesn't also imply a link
between Saddam and Al Qaeda's actions.

> , and never used that as an "excuse for war", contrary to your
> contention.


Google shows no record of me using that phrase. Please don't use quote
marks unless you're quoting me.

> There is no doubt that Iraq DID openly support terrorist
> organizations, and that may or may not have included Al Qaeda
> (certainly a lot of pre-war intelligence suggested that it did).


Apart from Ansar al Islam (operating outside of Saddam's control in
Kurdish territory) and the much-debunked Mohammed Atta-in-Prague story,
what else was there?

> Or perhaps I'm not understanding your point - it seems YOU are trying
> your best to link 9/11 with Iraq. ;-)


You're a mendacious little ****, aren't you?

Bush linked Saddam to Al Qaeda, even though there doesn't appear to be
any evidence to back that up.

Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11.

A majority of US people believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11.

If you don't see a link between those three statements, then you really
are a True Believer.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting,
it has been found difficult and left untried."
-- G K Chesterton
 
gwhite wrote:
>
>
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>>> I have always had trouble
>>> understanding how you can tax an economy into recovery.

>>
>>
>>
>> And I have always had trouble understanding why people making hundreds
>> of thousands of dollars per year need to pay less taxes.

>
>
> How do you figure they are paying "less taxes?" Less than who and by
> how much?


"Less" referred to "less than they did before the tax cut." I'm
surprised there was anyone who couldn't figure that out!

> What moron, rich, poor, or otherwise, wouldn't like to pay
> less taxes?


Since you ask: I'd think that people who had more money than they could
ever hope of spending in any reasonable way, and who had some sense of
social conscience, wouldn't care much about paying less taxes.

I'm nowhere close to the salary level that got big dollar amounts back
from Bush's tax cut plan. But, as examples, I _always_ vote for school
levies, library levies, etc. These (and many others) are things I am
happy to support with my money.

I'm aware, though, that we've had school levies defeated by the people
living in the McMansions out in what were recently cornfields. They
have enough money to buy those places (I don't) but they don't want to
give any of their money to the community.


> Your view isn't surprising since some of that wealth redistribution ends
> up in your very own pocket as a state university employee. Special
> interest groups really do look after their own interests. This is why
> you want taxes to at least be untouchable and unquestionable.


Um... right. I'm only in this business for the money. Ask any teacher,
they'll say the same.

(By the way, that was sarcasm.)


> Instead of justifying the taxes _to begin with_, which is the proper
> approach, you prefer to presume that the government is the warden of the
> people: over and above them. This is an abomination to free people.


I think you have very little ideea what I "prefer to presume."


>
> > Unless, of course, one is hoping to garner
> > political contributions from them.

>
> Name one politician who stands a chance in hell of winning a
> presidential election without getting large contributions from those
> able to make them.


Personally, I think what you're hinting at is the root of a great many
problems. However, I doubt you see it as a problem.


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> The
> administration has never linked 9/11 and Iraq, and never used that as
> an "excuse for war", contrary to your contention.


From http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0716-10.htm


Published on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 by the lnter Press Service


Key Officials Used 9/11 As Pretext for Iraq War
by Jim Lobe


WASHINGTON - With demands for a full-scale investigation of the
manipulation of intelligence by the administration of Pres. George W.
Bush mounting steadily, it appears increasingly clear that key officials
and their allies outside the administration intended to use the Sep. 11,
2001 terrorist attacks as a pretext for going to war against Iraq within
hours of the attacks themselves.

Within the administration, the principals appear to have included
Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz,
Vice Pres. **** Cheney, and his national security adviser, I. Lewis
Libby, among others in key posts in the National Security Council and
the State Department.

Outside the administration, key figures included close friends of both
Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, including Richard Perle, former Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA) chief James Woolsey -- both members of
Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board (DPB); Frank Gaffney, head of the
arms-industry-funded Center for Security Policy; and William Kristol,
editor of Rupert Murdoch-owned Weekly Standard and chairman of the
Project for the New American Century (PNAC), among others.

PNAC, which is based on the fifth floor of American Enterprise Institute
(AEI) building, in downtown Washington, was founded in 1997 with the
signing of a statement of principles calling for ”a Reaganite policy of
military strength and moral clarity”, signed by 25 prominent
neo-conservatives and right-wingers, including, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz,
Cheney and Libby, as well as several other senior Bush administration
officials.

A close examination of the public record indicates that all of these
individuals -- both in and outside the administration -- were actively
preparing the ground within days, even hours, after the 9/11 attacks,
for an eventual attack on Iraq, whether or not it had any role in the
attacks or any connection to al Qaeda.

The challenge, in their view, was to persuade the public that such links
either did indeed exist or were sufficiently likely to exist that a
preventive strike against Iraq was warranted. Their success in that
respect was stunning, although, in order to pull it off, they also had
to distort and exaggerate the evidence being collected by U.S.
intelligence agencies.

A hint of a deliberate campaign to connect Iraq with the 9/11 attacks
and al Qaeda surfaced last month in a June televised interview of Gen.
Wesley Clark on the popular public-affairs program, 'Meet the Press.' In
answer to a question, Clark asserted, ”There was a concerted effort
during the fall of 2001, starting immediately after 9/11, to pin 9/11
and the terrorism problem on Saddam Hussein”.

”It came from the White House, it came from other people around the
White House. It came from all over. I got a call on 9/11. I was on CNN,
and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected.
This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam
Hussein'.”

While Clark has not yet identified who called him, Perle, Woolsey,
Gaffney, and Kristol were using the same language in their media
appearances on 9/11 and over the following weeks.

”This could not have been done without help of one or more governments,”
Perle told The Washington Post on Sep. 11. ”Someone taught these suicide
bombers how to fly large airplanes. I don't think that can be done
without the assistance of large governments.”

Woolsey was more direct. ”(I)t's not impossible that terrorist groups
could work together with the government...the Iraqi government has been
quite closely involved with a number of Sunni terrorist groups and -- on
some matters -- has had direct contact with (Osama) bin Laden,” he told
one anchorman in a series of at least half a dozen national television
appearances on Sep. 11 and 12.

That same evening, Kristol echoed Woolsey on National Public Radio. ”I
think Iraq is, actually, the big, unspoken sort of elephant in the room
today. There's a fair amount of evidence that Iraq has had very close
associations with Osama bin Laden in the past, a lot of evidence that it
had associations with the previous effort to destroy the World Trade
Center (in 1993)”.

While Kristol and Co. were trying to implicate Hussein in the public
debate, their friends in the administration were pushing hard in the
same direction. Cheney, according to published accounts, had already
confided to friends even before Sep. 11 that he hoped the Bush
administration would remove Hussein from power.

But the evidence about Rumsfeld is even more dramatic. According to an
account by veteran CBS newsman David Martin last September, Rumsfeld was
”telling his aides to start thinking about striking Iraq, even though
there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks” five hours
after an American Airlines jet slammed into the Pentagon.

Martin attributed his account in part to notes that had been taken at
the time by a Rumsfeld aide. They quote the defense chief asking for the
”best info fast” to ”judge whether good enough to hit SH (Saddam
Hussein) at the same time, not only UBL (Usama bin Laden). The
administration should ”go massive...sweep it all up, things related and
not”, the notes quote Rumsfeld as saying.

Wolfowitz shared those views, according to an account of the meeting
Sep. 15-16 of the administration's war council at Camp David provided by
the Washington Post's Bill Woodward and Dan Balz. In the ”I-was-there”
style for which Woodward, whose access to powerful officials since his
investigative role in the Watergate scandal almost 30 years ago is
unmatched, is famous:

”Wolfowitz argued (at the meeting) that the real source of all the
trouble and terrorism was probably Hussein. The terrorist attacks of
Sept 11 created an opportunity to strike. Now, Rumsfeld asked again: 'Is
this the time to attack Iraq'”?

”Powell objected”, the Woodward and Balz account continued, citing
Secretary of State Colin Powell's argument that U.S. allies would not
support a strike on Iraq. ”If you get something pinning Sept 11 on Iraq,
great”, Powell is quoted as saying. But let's get Afghanistan now. If we
do that, we will have increased our ability to go after Iraq -- if we
can prove Iraq had a role”.

Upon their return to Washington, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz convened a
secret, two-day meeting of the DPB chaired by Perle. Instead of focusing
on the first steps in carrying out a ”war on terrorism”, however, the
discussions centered on how Washington could use 9/11 to strike at Iraq,
according to an account in the Wall Street Journal. Unlike Ahmed
Chalabi, the head of the opposition Iraqi National Congress (INC),
neither the State Department nor the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
was invited to participate in the meeting.

After those deliberations concluded, however, Woolsey was sent -- it
remains unclear under whose authority -- to London to collect evidence
of any possible ties between Baghdad and al Qaeda.

Although he returned empty-handed, that did not prevent him and his
close associates on the DPB from writing and speaking out in the press
about Hussein's alleged -- and completely unconfirmed -- role in the
1993 World Trade Center bombing and any other rumor, dubiously-sourced
story, or allegations by INC-supplied defectors that appeared to
implicate Hussein in terrorist activities in general and with al Qaeda
in particular.

But even as the DPB was locked in the Pentagon, Kristol was gathering
signatures on a letter to Bush, eventually published in PNAC's name in
The Washington Times Sep. 20, advising him on targets in his war on
terrorism, an agenda that so far has anticipated to a remarkable degree
the evolution of Bush's actual policy. In addition to calling for the
ouster of the Taliban and war on al Qaeda -- as well as cutting off the
Palestinian Authority (PA) under Yassir Arafat and other moves -- the
letter stated explicitly that Saddam Hussein must go regardless of his
relationship to the attacks or al Qaeda.

”It may be that the Iraqi government provided assistance in some form to
the recent attack on the United States,” it said. ”But even if evidence
does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the
eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined
effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Failure to undertake such an
effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the
war on international terrorism.”

The letter was signed by 38 prominent neo-conservatives, many of whom --
especially Perle, Kristol, Gaffney, William Bennett, DPB member Eliot
Cohen, AEI's Reuel Marc Gerecht and Kirkpatrick, Robert Kagan,
syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer, Clifford May and Randy
Scheunemann (who would go on to head the Committee for the Liberation of
Iraq) -- would emerge, along with Woolsey, as the most ubiquitous
champions of war with Iraq outside the administration.

It was the same people who, on behalf of their friends in the Pentagon,
also mounted an almost constant campaign against the CIA, the State
Department, and anyone else who tried to slow the drive to war or
question the administration's assertions about Hussein's links with al
Qaeda or the threat he posed to U.S. security.

Their success is beyond question. By last October, just before the House
of Representatives was to vote on giving Bush authority to go to war, a
survey by the Pew Research Center found that two-thirds of adult
respondents believed that ”Saddam Hussein helped the terrorists in the
Sep. 11 attacks”.

While that percentage has declined over time, a strong majority was
found late last month to believe that Hussein supported al Qaeda, and a
remarkable 52 percent believe that the U.S. has actually found ”clear
evidence in Iraq” of close ties between the two. A mere seven percent in
the latter poll said they believed ”there was no connection at all”, the
finding which most accurately reflects the views of the U.S.
intelligence community."


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]
 
Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> And you're grasping at straws, and trying to change the subject. The
>> administration has never linked 9/11 and Iraq

>
>Jesus ****ing Christ. I know you believe that. I'm telling you that you
>have to either a shill for Bush or dumb as a bag of rocks to think that
>claiming a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda doesn't also imply a link
>between Saddam and Al Qaeda's actions.


So you ARE trying to build a case for the connection after all.
Personally I think it's a little vague, but if you insist...

Of course that means if you ever contributed to Ted Kennedy's
campaign, you're linked directly to the drowning of Mary Jo Kopechne,
right?

>> , and never used that as an "excuse for war", contrary to your
>> contention.

>
>Google shows no record of me using that phrase. Please don't use quote
>marks unless you're quoting me.


Your link (to the "luna site") was in direct response to a question I
asked about any link used to tie 9/11 and Iraq together by the
administration. So, if you're saying the administration did NOT use
the "link" to justify the war, we have little to argue about.

>> There is no doubt that Iraq DID openly support terrorist
>> organizations, and that may or may not have included Al Qaeda
>> (certainly a lot of pre-war intelligence suggested that it did).

>
>Apart from Ansar al Islam (operating outside of Saddam's control in
>Kurdish territory) and the much-debunked Mohammed Atta-in-Prague story,
>what else was there?


Abu Nidal
Arab Liberation Front
Hamas
Kurdistan Workers Party
Mujahedin-e-Khalq
Palestine Liberation Front

The above have killed at least 36 Americans, BTW.

There's an excellent report available at:

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/murdocksaddamarticle.pdf

.... and it contains scores of citations so you can look up the source
of the data.

>> Or perhaps I'm not understanding your point - it seems YOU are trying
>> your best to link 9/11 with Iraq. ;-)

>
>You're a mendacious little ****, aren't you?


Every time you resort to ad hominem, you only make it clear that
you're not able to refute my point (but thanks for the vocabulary word
of the day - even though you appear to not understand its meaning).

Or perhaps you can point out one "lie" in anything I wrote.

>Bush linked Saddam to Al Qaeda, even though there doesn't appear to be
>any evidence to back that up.


The "lack of evidence" is very debatable.

>Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11.
>
>A majority of US people believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11.
>
>If you don't see a link between those three statements, then you really
>are a True Believer.


So if I understand your logic, any time one organization supports
another organization, they are by definition directly involved in
every action of the supported organization.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Is anyone who's ever contributed to the
Catholic Church be asssumed to be "involved" in priestly pedophilia?

The issue (that you seem to be constantly missing) is that no one in
the administration has suggested that (and I'll use your words to
prevent any further confusion) "Saddam was involved in 9/11".

Is it possible that Saddam gave some SUPPORT to Al Qaeda? Not at all
hard to believe.

There are three paths you can take to arrive at the conclusion that
Saddam was "involved in 9/11"...

1) You can be told directly (didn't happen)
2) You can make that connection by studying the information available
(some may have come to this conclusion based on available evidence
before the war)
or
3) You can simply lump all terrorists together and not worry about
distinguishing between them (my guess is that this is what most people
do, for whatever reason).

Using US public opinion as an indicator of history is a specious
endeavor at best...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>>> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> And you're grasping at straws, and trying to change the subject. The
>>> administration has never linked 9/11 and Iraq

>>
>>Jesus ****ing Christ. I know you believe that. I'm telling you that you
>>have to either a shill for Bush or dumb as a bag of rocks to think that
>>claiming a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda doesn't also imply a link
>>between Saddam and Al Qaeda's actions.

>
> So you ARE trying to build a case for the connection after all.
> Personally I think it's a little vague, but if you insist...


"claiming"

> Of course that means if you ever contributed to Ted Kennedy's
> campaign, you're linked directly to the drowning of Mary Jo Kopechne,
> right?


If Ted Kennedy's business was the drowing women business, then yes.

[...]
>>> There is no doubt that Iraq DID openly support terrorist
>>> organizations, and that may or may not have included Al Qaeda
>>> (certainly a lot of pre-war intelligence suggested that it did).

>>
>>Apart from Ansar al Islam (operating outside of Saddam's control in
>>Kurdish territory) and the much-debunked Mohammed Atta-in-Prague story,
>>what else was there?

>
> Abu Nidal
> Arab Liberation Front
> Hamas
> Kurdistan Workers Party
> Mujahedin-e-Khalq
> Palestine Liberation Front


And which one of these "include[d] Al Qaeda"?

>>> Or perhaps I'm not understanding your point - it seems YOU are trying
>>> your best to link 9/11 with Iraq. ;-)

>>
>>You're a mendacious little ****, aren't you?

>
> Every time you resort to ad hominem, you only make it clear that
> you're not able to refute my point


It wasn't ad hominem. It was insult. I didn't claim your argument was
incorrect *because* you're a mendacious little ****. I just called you
one.

> (but thanks for the vocabulary word of the day - even though you
> appear to not understand its meaning).
>
> Or perhaps you can point out one "lie" in anything I wrote.


Deliberately and dishonestly twisting my argument.

>>Bush linked Saddam to Al Qaeda, even though there doesn't appear to be
>>any evidence to back that up.

>
> The "lack of evidence" is very debatable.


If there was any evidence, we'd have seen it by now. We haven't.

>>Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11.
>>
>>A majority of US people believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11.
>>
>>If you don't see a link between those three statements, then you really
>>are a True Believer.

>
> So if I understand your logic, any time one organization supports
> another organization, they are by definition directly involved in
> every action of the supported organization.
>
> Sorry, I don't buy it. Is anyone who's ever contributed to the
> Catholic Church be asssumed to be "involved" in priestly pedophilia?


If the Catholic Church was primarily a paedophile organisation, then
sure. If Saddam had been assisting Al Qaeda, he wouldn't be doing it
because of the quality of their pool parties.

> The issue (that you seem to be constantly missing) is that no one in
> the administration has suggested that (and I'll use your words to
> prevent any further confusion) "Saddam was involved in 9/11".


Shall we debate what the meaning of 'is' is, too?

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"Not waving, but drowning."
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:


>>Qaeda to Iraq or Saddam many times. Let's see if you can follow this
>>huge leap of logic:
>>
>>1.) Al Qaeda took down the WTC.
>>
>>2.) Saddam/Iraq is in bed with al Qaeda, thus
>>
>>3.) Saddam/Iraq had something to do with 9/11.
>>
>>Wow, I guess it's just my superior intellect that can connect the dots
>>like that, huh? And GWB would *never* try to link the two if it
>>weren't true, right? Don't mind the fact that he had it in for Saddam
>>and Iraq since he arrived in the Oval Office (see Paul O'Neill's book
>>for confirmation of that.) No, it's not convenient at all to link
>>Saddam with al Qaeda, because nobody would ever infer any kind of
>>connection between Saddam and 9/11, right?

>
>
> Your logic is amazing. You're implying that it's impossible to
> discuss ties between Al Qaeda and state support without somehow
> subliminally suggesting that it HAS to mean that every group that's
> supported Al Qaeda was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. Wow.
>
> And quoting Paul O'Neill as a credible source is going to water down
> your point. It's well known there was a contingency plan for Iraq
> (can you imagine NOT having one?).
>


I think they should have attacked Canada instead. The 9/11 guys came
from Montreal. Canadians and the CDN govt. generally don't agree with
the Bush type American World View. The Candian govt. allows muslims to
freely move about and organize themselves around the country. By the CDN
disagreement with the US they tacitly lend support to the Al-Qaeda
cause. Canada didn't support the war in Iraq. The problem is that what
Bush and his buddies achieved was to repeat this scenario all over the
world such that they increased the 'Al-Qaeda' factor all over the world.
Things have gotten harder for Al-Qaeda in terms of Terrorist attacks in
the West but that is due to the vigilence of those countries independant
of Bush, partly due to self preservation and still remaning loyal to the
US, despite being insulted by Bush and his buddies. Everyone that
disagrees with Bush is a terrorist.
 
Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Keith Willoughby <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Mark Hickey wrote:


>> Of course that means if you ever contributed to Ted Kennedy's
>> campaign, you're linked directly to the drowning of Mary Jo Kopechne,
>> right?

>
>If Ted Kennedy's business was the drowing women business, then yes.
>
>[...]
>>>> There is no doubt that Iraq DID openly support terrorist
>>>> organizations, and that may or may not have included Al Qaeda
>>>> (certainly a lot of pre-war intelligence suggested that it did).
>>>
>>>Apart from Ansar al Islam (operating outside of Saddam's control in
>>>Kurdish territory) and the much-debunked Mohammed Atta-in-Prague story,
>>>what else was there?

>>
>> Abu Nidal
>> Arab Liberation Front
>> Hamas
>> Kurdistan Workers Party
>> Mujahedin-e-Khalq
>> Palestine Liberation Front

>
>And which one of these "include[d] Al Qaeda"?


I didn't list AQ, but there is a lot of data indicating a link. The
best one-source synopsis I've seen is on the admittedly conservative
Weekly Standard website (though once again, it's not an op-ed piece
but an analysis of other documents). If you're really interested:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp?pg=1

>>>> Or perhaps I'm not understanding your point - it seems YOU are trying
>>>> your best to link 9/11 with Iraq. ;-)
>>>
>>>You're a mendacious little ****, aren't you?

>>
>> Every time you resort to ad hominem, you only make it clear that
>> you're not able to refute my point

>
>It wasn't ad hominem. It was insult. I didn't claim your argument was
>incorrect *because* you're a mendacious little ****. I just called you
>one.
>
>> (but thanks for the vocabulary word of the day - even though you
>> appear to not understand its meaning).
>>
>> Or perhaps you can point out one "lie" in anything I wrote.

>
>Deliberately and dishonestly twisting my argument.


You seem to have confused "lying" with "pointing out obvious logical
errors". Wiggle as you might, to make your point you have to force
the conclusion that support = direct involvement. Once you do so,
you've only bolstered the Bush reasons for going after Saddam. Kind
of a Catch 22, don't you think?

>>>Bush linked Saddam to Al Qaeda, even though there doesn't appear to be
>>>any evidence to back that up.

>>
>> The "lack of evidence" is very debatable.

>
>If there was any evidence, we'd have seen it by now. We haven't.


Take a look at the Weekly Standard article. Perhaps some of the
intelligence was flawed or inflated by informants with an agenda...
but it would be hard to entirely discount all the sources of info,
coming as it did from many different (and mostly credible) sources.

>>>Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11.
>>>
>>>A majority of US people believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11.
>>>
>>>If you don't see a link between those three statements, then you really
>>>are a True Believer.

>>
>> So if I understand your logic, any time one organization supports
>> another organization, they are by definition directly involved in
>> every action of the supported organization.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't buy it. Is anyone who's ever contributed to the
>> Catholic Church be asssumed to be "involved" in priestly pedophilia?

>
>If the Catholic Church was primarily a paedophile organisation, then
>sure. If Saddam had been assisting Al Qaeda, he wouldn't be doing it
>because of the quality of their pool parties.


He'd be doing it based on the "the enemy of my enemy is my ally"
principle. He certainly applied that concept to other similar groups
- even radically Islamic groups that otherwise would have no use for
Saddam's secular government.

But the thought of Osama bin Laden in a Speedo is really going over
the top...

>> The issue (that you seem to be constantly missing) is that no one in
>> the administration has suggested that (and I'll use your words to
>> prevent any further confusion) "Saddam was involved in 9/11".

>
>Shall we debate what the meaning of 'is' is, too?


I think we need to work on "involved" apparently.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
>Keith Willoughby [email protected]

wrote:

>Ah. So when GWB and Cheney were pointing out the supposed links between
>Al Qaeda and Saddam, they were specifically *not* implying a link
>between Saddam and Al Qaeda's most infamous act? Somehow, all the
>assistance Saddam was supposed to be giving was sufficiently
>compartmentalised so that it didn't help Al Qaeda fly planes into the
>World Trade Center? And that they had no intention that people would
>think that?
>
>You're pathetic.


I read Socrates' famous syllogism way back in high school but I still remember
it said:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Socrates is mortal.

and my teacher pointing out that changing it to:

Socrates is a man.
Socrates is mortal.

does not validate:

All men are mortal.

Believe it or not, most people are capable of following that reasoning
*especially* when the Administration was very careful to say repeatedly that
they had no proof any Iraqi involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
Jim West <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> Jim West <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> Do you really think that it is that simple to turn a few litres of
>>> liquid into a fine mist of the proper concentration over a large
>>> enough area that it will kill thousands (or even hundreds) of
>>> people? According to the people who know, it isn't, and that is
>>> why they are not particularly concerned about the finding of a
>>> single shell. (And history would seem to confirm this, as
>>> terrorists have had access to sarin and other nasty chemical
>>> agents, but it has never been effectly used.)

>>
>> You betray a serious lack of comprehension of terrorism. Military
>> operations require a high kill rate to be considered successful.
>> Terrorist attacks don't need to kill a single person to be
>> successful- all terrorist attacks have to do is cause the fear of
>> mass death.

>
> Of course I understand that. The near hysterical reaction to this
> find in some quarters is proof enough. But that wasn't the
> topic. The question is if this single find represents "weapons of
> mass destruction" that justified starting a war in the first
> place. Even Rumsfeld cautioned against jumping to that conclusion.


Well, it *is* a WMD. Whether one antiquated and malfunctioning
weapon justifies a war is a different discussion. Of course, the
motivational history of this war was known long before it started,
thanks to the letter from Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Weber et al sent to
then-President Clinton urging exactly the war we have today.

With any luck at all, this fiasco will be enough to get BushCo tossed
out on their proverbial ears in November.
 
[email protected] (JP) writes:

> Hussein did not have artillery capable of reaching the US (nor does
> anyone else) so this shell could not have been a threat to us in the
> USA.


Canada? Mexico? Any nation with a boat? We ain't safe, we never
were safe, we never will be safe. Tine to get used to the New World
Order. All I see in Washington these days is a thousand points of
darkness.
 
Thu, 20 May 2004 11:10:59 -0700,
<[email protected]>,
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> >Speaking of True Believers, have you sent in your job application to
>>> >Kellogg Brown & Root yet? Since everything is going just peachy in
>>> >Iraq you should be jumping to get over there and lend a hand.
>>>
>>> I actually did apply for a position that would have taken me to Iraq,
>>> FWIW. I didn't get the job. Happy?

>>
>>Did you apply for something for which you were QUALIFIED?

>
>Very much so.


Apparently not.
--
zk
 
Wed, 19 May 2004 20:50:02 -0700,
<[email protected]>,
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>Most came to the conclusion that the war was the right thing to do
>based on the evidence at hand at the time.


There was no _evidence_ justifying an invasion.
There was spin, hype, propaganda and repression of dissent.
There was Chalabi's lies and a plagiarised term paper massaged by the
neo con agenda. There were assurances that the assault on Iraq would
last a week and you'd be welcomed as liberators.

Conservatives are, at best, dupes and at worst, criminals for
perpetrating the slaughter of Iraqis on the pretense of fighting
terrorism.
--
zk