Garmin Vector Press release

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by 82zman, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. 82zman

    82zman New Member

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  2. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    I'm more disappointed in having to use Garmin pedals. Having to switch pedals, in my opinion, is worse than switching a rear hub, cranks, or the spider.. seems like a deal breaker unless you happen to already be riding those type cleats.

    I don't race, but I do like measuring power. I was pretty sold on this product when I still thought it would be compatible with Speedplay :)
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I use Look Keo pedals, but I am surprised they did not go with Speedplay or go to the market with both pedal styles. Quarq has the option of SRAM or FSA for the crank set.

    I thought price would be more enticing, but this is suggested retail so it will be interesting of the cost once it starts to show up on eBay or online sellers. I was holding out on this product to jump up to ANT+ but got tired of waiting so I just got a new PT wheel. Glad I did and for a lot less. Plus it will be a while before we see all the other more important details like reliability, accuracy and calibration.

    The one thing that caught my attention has more to do with the Edge 800 & 500 and that TSS / IF / NP will be added in a new firmware update this year. I was thinking about upgrading my 705 to the 800. I will sell the 705 to one of my friends that is not interested in training with power and just needs GPS mapping.

    I am still getting used to using the 705 for the head unit. I was so used to using the little yellow Cervo that on Saturday's ride I forgot to hit the timer start after a store stop (since you cannot use autopause) and lost 10 miles worth of data. ARGH!!!!!

    I later read from one person to avoid this issue just leave the unit running and then cut the data from WKO.
    He also advised that if one stops for 1 to 3 minutes leave it running, but if you stop for up to 10 minutes or more stop the timer.
    I am not sure what is the right protocol. For the Cervo the PT hub goes to sleep and the unit stops collecting data. From there it all seems to work out okay in WKO, but with the Edge you have to manage this differently. It has not become habit for me yet.
     
  4. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    I'm aware of the supposed problems with the auto-start feature, but I have yet to have a problem with it. I use TP and WKO 3.0 and haven't had an issue with either one. That being said, mine rarely auto-stops and even when it does it is for a second or two.. perhaps that's the reason I don't have an issue.
     
  5. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    It's unlikely the Speedplay folks will take part in a pedal based power system. They are pretty damned protective--possibly even paranoid--about Speedplay stuff. No matter which pedal system Garmin selected, there were going to be users of other pedals that would be disappointed.
     
  6. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    Fair point, I suppose I got my hopes up a little because the first time I read about the product (before Garmin purchased it) it was being developed to fit in the spindle of a speedplay.. I was pretty excited :)
     
  7. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    The best hope for Speedplay users (in terms of pedal based power measurement) will be the Brim Brothers system, if and when it makes it to market.

    http://www.brimbrothers.com/
     
  8. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    I appreciate the link, I had not seen that before. It does look like it might be interesting...we'll see how it develops. Thanks again.
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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  10. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking forward to reading reviews of the Vector in actual use. It will also be interesting to see what Brim's final product form will be. What they showed at the bike shows was in a highly developed state, and they hinted at a wireless system that would, in this case, rid the system of the wire from the cleat to the sending unit on top of the shoe.
     
  11. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    That will be interesting. I was thinking today the potential advantage for some power users that travel or do spin classes.
    I have several friends that travel to Europe each year, rent high end bikes and do the epic climbs. Imagine the ease of having the PM travel as light as a pair of shoes that you will take with you.
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Certainly with spin classes since so many bear little resemblance to anything relevant to cycling.
     
  13. sitzmark

    sitzmark Member

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    Not sure how Brim would eliminate the wire between the cleat and sending unit. For wireless, the cleat needs to have a radio sending unit and that needs to be powered in some way. Too small of a battery/radio to build into the stress shim?? Seems like it would require an external module on the bottom of the shoe also. Add to that the need to charge the data logger/sending unit battery on the top of the shoe and it would make for a complicated approach. However, I can see future integration of a "wire tunnel" built into shoes to accommodate the connection of the two modules (cleat and sender).

    Waited for the specifics of the Vector for a long time, but it is a bust. Unless one wants to use a specific pedal for road, cross, and mtb, there isn't any real advantage. Easier to transfer bike-to-bike than a power crank for sure, but has the same limitations as a hub/wheel. No price advantage either. So fits none of my needs. If Brim can expand their breadth of cleat options (road/cross/mtb), that is clearly the winning platform ... if it works. Working prototype at Interbike suggested they are well on their way.
     
  14. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Well, there's little price advantage given Garmin's stated price; however, it's a bit early to know what the real price will be and how much that price will drop over time.

    Any pedal based power meter is going to have the disadvantage that it won't transfer at all or well between road, cx, and mtb, but the power meter companies--in this case Garmin, Look, and in the near future, O-synce--know that. The riders that need such a power meter aren't the market those companies are working. I suspect that Grim will have the same issue. While they well might end up making versions for different pedals/cleats, it's difficult to see how a version to fit multiple different style cleats would work.

    Right now I'm on the fence between the Vector and Power2max. Grim could be added to that mix depending on how quickly their development moves along. SRM is way too expensive, and I'm not hip to the hub based solution of PowerTap.
     
  15. sitzmark

    sitzmark Member

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    I settled on Look Quartz for all bikes/shoes. Not for everyone but might be enough Crank Bros egg beater users to make a market. Other option is to work with a pedal manufacturer for a common spindle with swappable platforms. Might make for too much imprecision but if it could be controlled it would be an ideal system.
     
  16. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    You have to remember, though, that these companies have to choose pedal systems that have market share, especially since the power meter market isn't so big to being with. Given that Look, Look compatible stuff, and Speedplay are no-brainers. I don't know how big Egg Beater's overall market share is, but it's not very big with the road bike crowd. Unfortunately for those in mtb and cx, road bike users drive the power meter market, at least for now.

    Using a universal type axle would be tough, because switching between dissimilar pedal bodies would cause an error. Whether it be big or not would be dependent on the stiffness of the pedal bodies. I don't know how much pedal bodies flex, and none of the data released by anyone so far shows the variation in power readings between pedal bodies when using a single axle between said bodies.
     
  17. sitzmark

    sitzmark Member

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    Agreed - Look and Speedplay are the obvious road play. Have read very few posts/comments here or elsewhere that suggested existing roadie power users were intending to switch from crank meters to pedal. PT users users seem to feel the same. Because of the announced MSRP prospective PT users haven't been expressing an overwhelming interest to jump into the game. (Again just gut assessment of general forum/review comments). A sub $1,000 power solution had captured a lot of attention to grow the power base.. Lots of hope for a $500-$750 option - seemingly quenched by launch positioning.

    MTB and cx stays with existing power options until a company addressed their mud shedding needs. So what does a pedal/cleat based option do to expand the power market?? Or is it primarily a play to steal share? Will be interesting to see if the new form factor(s) have a more robust market value than opiners have expressed. Presumably Garmin and Brim have done their due diligence (and I haven't), so they may have this pegged. We'll see.
     
  18. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the Vector's price is determine by launch positioning. The early price estimates were from MetriGear. On top of that Garmin had to add the cost of buying MetriGear, completing the design, and coming to an agreement with Exustar (I'm sure neither Exustar or Look--for Polar--are in it without financial compensation). To top that off, the power meter market is a niche market, so Garmin has to be sure to make enough to cover its costs, especially if their gambit goes tits up. I think in a year, the price will come down, and I think it's likely the real cost on the street will be lower anyway.

    Brim's effort to have their power meter come in well below $1000 is admirable, but they still haven't brought anything to market, and they haven't completed development. Their concept is great, but the wire running from the sensor to the sending unit is naked and ripe for being disrupted in some fashion or another. It seems ripe for that, anyway. Also, I think sticking/gluing a velcro wire restraint to the shoe is a bit of a kludge. Hopefully they'll meet their technological and price goals, but I'm gonna hold off getting excited until their product hits the market.

    Pedal based power meters do have a few different selling points. They provide a power measurement closer to what the user is putting out. They're using piezo electric strain gauges which means said gauges will have a longer working life and a more constant measurement over that life. They provide left and right power measurements which should again make for a more accurate measurement (all else being equal). It's possible, with some at least, to analyze power or force as a function of crank angle. Whether these selling points will actually be valuable to the user is yet to be seen. I do think left/right power measurement will be useful for people who've had injury to one leg in that it'll help in training the weak leg. That's one reason why I'm interested. In order to repair a broken hip I had, the arthropod had to make a 6" incision at my hip, which went all the way to the femur, through the lateral aspect of my upper quadricep. That leg is noticeably weaker than the other, and I'd like to quantify the difference in order to gauge improvement.

    We'll see what the market looks like in three years.
     
  19. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    I'd be interested in left-right power info, but it's not a reason why overall pre-injury power can't be reclaimed/improved upon even if you have an "imbalance".
     
  20. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right, and I didn't mean to imply that a power meter w/ R/L readings is needed to correct an imbalance. As a science guy and geek, having that R/L balance reading would be tasty and another set of data to possibly use. As professors are fond of saying, that extra data doesn't have to go into the dissertation......in this case, the metaphorical dissertation. In that respect, power meters aren't necessary, but they've certainly shown themselves to be useful. Time will tell whether R/L readings are more than chum tossed into the waters of the market by ad people.

    Who knows, maybe Steve Hogg will be able to use R/L power reading to validate his "theory" about the scourge that charity bands are.
     
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