gary fisher nirvana 2003 or 2004? Please help



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jbloos

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Oct 13, 2003
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I am trying to decide what gary fisher nirvana bike to buy. The XXL size (25 inch) that I need is now available as 2003 and 2004 model. The 2003 model looks great in red and the 2004 model is black.

The few differences as far as I can see are:
2003 (550 euro (this is -10%))
Gripshift Centera
Fork Insync Odesa168 45 mm
Front and rear rim Matrix 750
Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c
Saddle Oasis CRZ+

2004 (599 euro)
Shifters Shimano Alivio
Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm travel
Front and rear rim Alex ACE19 (?)
Bontrager Select Invert Hardcase | 700x35c
Saddle Bontrager CRZ+

The fork is slightly better I think, since it was already mounted on the more expensive utopia model in 2003.

The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004 model I saw has spokes connected to the rims in a different, i think stronger, manner (double butted???).

Can someone help me understand the differences between both models.

Thanks,
Jan
 
if you're tall enough to ride a 25", it seems logical to me that you'd be heavy enough to bottom out
a 45mm fork pretty easily... just for that reason alone you should get the new 2004? "jbloos"
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I am trying to decide what gary fisher nirvana bike to buy. The XXL size (25 inch) that I need
> is now available as 2003 and 2004 model. The 2003 model looks great in red and the 2004 model
> is black.
>
> The few differences as far as I can see are: 2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera
> Fork Insync Odesa168 45 mm Front and rear rim Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c Saddle
> Oasis CRZ+
>
> 2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm travel Front and rear rim
> Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+
>
> The fork is slightly better I think, since it was already mounted on the more expensive utopia
> model in 2003.
>
> The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004 model I saw has spokes
> connected to the rims in a different, i think stronger, manner (double butted???).
>
> Can someone help me understand the differences between both models.
>
> Thanks, Jan
>
>
>
> --
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com
 
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168 45 mm Front and rear rim
> Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c Saddle Oasis CRZ+
>
> 2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm travel Front and rear rim
> Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+
>
> The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004 model I saw has spokes
> connected to the rims in a different, i think stronger, manner (double butted???).

The bikes are pretty similar. You have a tough decision!
- I prefer Shimano shifters over Gripshift, but that's just personal preference.
- The Matrix 750 rim is a little heavier and might be stronger than the Alex ACE19.
- The "Hardcase" tires have molded strip at the rim's edge as a little more protection against
pinch flats, but the larger air volume of the 38mm tires gives a little more protection compared
to the 35mm.
- The saddles are likely identical except for markings.
- Double butted spokes are good: lighter and help rims last longer in fatigue.

Except for the shifting and maybe the fork, sounds like they're even to me. Which color do you like?

Good luck!
 
Originally posted by Dianne_1234
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168 45 mm Front and rear rim
> Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c Saddle Oasis CRZ+
>
> 2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm travel Front and rear rim
> Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+
>
> The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004 model I saw has spokes
> connected to the rims in a different, i think stronger, manner (double butted???).

The bikes are pretty similar. You have a tough decision!
- I prefer Shimano shifters over Gripshift, but that's just personal preference.
- The Matrix 750 rim is a little heavier and might be stronger than the Alex ACE19.
- The "Hardcase" tires have molded strip at the rim's edge as a little more protection against
pinch flats, but the larger air volume of the 38mm tires gives a little more protection compared
to the 35mm.
- The saddles are likely identical except for markings.
- Double butted spokes are good: lighter and help rims last longer in fatigue.

Except for the shifting and maybe the fork, sounds like they're even to me. Which color do you like?

Good luck!


I like the red model very much, but it is the older model so that's the problem. The black one is not bad either though. I selected the Nirvana or Trek7300FX in the first place because these are made in the 25 inch size, that's important for me (196 cm, 6'6"). Both are black this year by the way.

They are very similar. In the shop, the tyres on the 2004 model where the same as on the 2003 model. The spokes are not double butted, I just found out. The rims are different however, and the spokes are connected to the rims through a small bus. The spokes go through it into the rim? Do you know how this works, I think it is easier to maintain this type of wheel?

Thanks for the reply,
Jan
 
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The rims are different however, and the spokes are connected to the rims through a small bus. The
> spokes go through it into the rim? Do you know how this works, I think it is easier to maintain
> this type of wheel?

I'm having a hard time understanding. Got a picture?
 
Originally posted by Dianne_1234
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The rims are different however, and the spokes are connected to the rims through a small bus. The
> spokes go through it into the rim? Do you know how this works, I think it is easier to maintain
> this type of wheel?

I'm having a hard time understanding. Got a picture?

I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in the Alex ACE 19 rims are extra reinforced by small cylindrical bus inserts in these holes. That's all. I do not know how this constuction is called in english. The tires are a bit smaller (700x35) on the 2004 model compared to the 2003 model. That may be a reason for changing the wheel type in the new model. Also, I found out that the Rockshox fork is not the exactly same type used in the more expensive utopia model of 2003.

Anyway, assuming the new model will at least be slightly better equipped and a further evolved design, I asked the shop to order the new 25" 2004 model for me to try out and see how it fits my size without obligations (I already tried the 22.5" model). It could arrive already friday. I will let you know how.

Thanks,
Jan
 
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in the Alex ACE 19 rims are extra
> reinforced by small cylindrical bus inserts in these holes.

Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer them, but there is often no practical
difference. Rims without eyelets can last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce the rim there.
In my opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent in that regard.

> The tires are a bit smaller (700x35) on the 2004 model compared to the 2003 model. That may be a
> reason for changing the wheel type in the new model. Also, I found out that the Rockshox fork is
> not the exactly same type used in the more expensive utopia model of 2003.

These are probably the differences that might matter more, but in my opinion they are still less
important than color. ;-)

> Anyway, assuming the new model will at least be slightly better equipped and a further evolved
> design, I asked the shop to order the new 25" 2004 model for me to try out and see how it fits my
> size without obligations (I already tried the 22.5" model).

Good. Riding is a great way to compare bikes!
 
anonymous writes:

>> I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in the Alex ACE 19 rims are
>> extra reinforced by small cylindrical bus inserts in these holes.

> Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer them, but there is often no
> practical difference. Rims without eyelets can last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce
> the rim there. In my opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent in that regard.

A good example of whether sockets have any value is seen on the Mavic MA-3 that has double walled
bed but only eyelets. These rims although similar in cross section to the old MA-2, the worlds most
widely used sport rim, fail as spokes break out of the single walled support. Since there are so
many eyelet only rims sold these days, people are wondering if their spokes are too tight. That
makes an about face on wheel strength and durability.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> anonymous writes:
>
> > Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer them, but there is often no
> > practical difference. Rims without eyelets can last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce
> > the rim there. In my opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent in that regard.
>
> A good example of whether sockets have any value is seen on the Mavic MA-3 that has double walled
> bed but only eyelets. These rims although similar in cross section to the old MA-2, the worlds
> most widely used sport rim, fail as spokes break out of the single walled support. Since there are
> so many eyelet only rims sold these days, people are wondering if their spokes are too tight. That
> makes an about face on wheel strength and durability.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected]

Yes, I agree the MA3 is a good example of a rim with eyelets, that needs sockets and eyelets.
Compared to the robust MA2 with sockets and eyelets.

However, the two rims on the bikes in questions are likely very much like the ones shown under
Products, then Trekking at http://www.alexrims.com/ In fact, I think the Matrix 750 might actually
*be* the same rim as the Alex DA16, and I can't find a ACE19, but ACE18 has eyelets.

The wall thickness on those two rims, and my personal experience, suggest to me that they might have
roughly equivalent spoke-hole fatigue life.

I still say the OP could do wore than consider color as a tiebreaker. ;-)
 
Originally posted by Dianne_1234
[email protected] wrote in message

Yes, I agree the MA3 is a good example of a rim with eyelets, that needs sockets and eyelets.
Compared to the robust MA2 with sockets and eyelets.

However, the two rims on the bikes in questions are likely very much like the ones shown under
Products, then Trekking at http://www.alexrims.com/ In fact, I think the Matrix 750 might actually
*be* the same rim as the Alex DA16, and I can't find a ACE19, but ACE18 has eyelets.

The wall thickness on those two rims, and my personal experience, suggest to me that they might have
roughly equivalent spoke-hole fatigue life.

I still say the OP could do wore than consider color as a tiebreaker. ;-)

I found the ACE 19 rim under MTB sport section along with the ACE 18 rim! I do not have the background to
use the extra information though.

May be they changed the rims on the 2004 model simply because a black rim looks better on a black bike?

I'm interested how to test the bike (25 inch frame) and what is important for a good fitting, I am 197 cm.

Thanks
Jan
 
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I found the ACE 19 rim under MTB sport section along with the ACE 18 rim! I do not have the
> background to use the extra information though.

Good find! The only difference I see is insignificant, in my opinion: the sidewalls are convex,
rather than concave.

> May be they changed the rims on the 2004 model simply because a black rim looks better on a
> black bike?

I think that's quite likely, actually.

> I'm interested how to test the bike (25 inch frame) and what is important for a good fitting, I
> am 197 cm.
>
> Thanks Jan

Not even 2 meters tall? ;-) You might not "need" the largest size. But only you can tell. Formulas
are mostly based on racers, and buying a city bike, it's clear you're not a racer. However, see this
link for how to test ride a bike: http://www.chainreaction.com/roadbiketestrides.htm
 
Originally posted by Dianne_1234
jbloos <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I found the ACE 19 rim under MTB sport section along with the ACE 18 rim! I do not have the
> background to use the extra information though.

Good find! The only difference I see is insignificant, in my opinion: the sidewalls are convex,
rather than concave.

> May be they changed the rims on the 2004 model simply because a black rim looks better on a
> black bike?

I think that's quite likely, actually.

> I'm interested how to test the bike (25 inch frame) and what is important for a good fitting, I
> am 197 cm.
>
> Thanks Jan

Not even 2 meters tall? ;-) You might not "need" the largest size. But only you can tell. Formulas
are mostly based on racers, and buying a city bike, it's clear you're not a racer. However, see this
link for how to test ride a bike: http://www.chainreaction.com/roadbiketestrides.htm

Not even 2 m, so I'm only a little above average over here, but still, I thought the 22.5 inch I tried was to a bit too small and trek and fisher make these 25 inch bikes anyway.

Not a racer, but I thought this could be a very good fitness bike as well - and if I want to be in a slightly more upright position in traffic it might be better to have the 25 inch, because it allows me to raise the steering bar more?

After reading the article you mentioned, I think, I will have to watch the correct top tube and stem length in relation to the torso and arm lenght. Probably more important than seat tube length for me, but the top tube increases only a little bit from 22.5 to 25 inch.

New problem: how can I leave such a bike in the center without it being stolen. Will have to lock seat and front wheel to frame and frame to fixed world and even then it appears that any lock can be opened. I think I will never leave it unattended.

Thanks again,
Jan
 
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