Gas cooktops - does one really need 15K BTUs?

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by TammyM, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. TammyM

    TammyM Guest

    I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    BTUs on that baby.

    From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.

    So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    any cook worth her salt?

    TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!
     
    Tags:


  2. Dimitri

    Dimitri Guest

    "TammyM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    > research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    > now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    > to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    > BTUs on that baby.
    >
    > From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    > an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    > appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    > cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    > I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    > compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    > burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    > All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    > the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    > advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    > boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    > present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.
    >
    > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    > any cook worth her salt?
    >
    > TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!


    There is no finite answer to your question. The average burner today is about
    9300 BTU. One of the burners on my cooktop is 11,000. 15K sure why not? The
    answer is how quick do you want to heat water? How quick do you want the water
    to recover to the boiling point? How much cooking do you do in a wok? Do you
    like Blackened food in an old cast iron pan? How much cooking do you do fro a
    crowd? Do you use a Dutch Oven as a Deep Fat Fryer?

    Dimitri
     
  3. sf

    sf Guest

    On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:22:41 GMT, TammyM wrote:

    > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    > any cook worth her salt?


    I don't use gas... but as far as I can tell, a lot of people like that
    kind of heat when they are wok cooking; however I manage wok cooking
    very nicely on my old electric cooktop.
     
  4. As said previously, it depends on your cooking habits. And by the way,
    real wok cooking burners put out more like 24K BTUs. But for the normal
    home, wok cooking is best with the highest BTU output you have.

    But besides wok cooking, how much boiling of liquids do you do? For
    example for things like pasta, jelly/jam making, etc. I have a 5 burner
    gas cooktop with one 17.5K BTU burner. I love it but it's not used
    daily. But when it's needed, nothing else comes close. I'm glad I have
    it and would miss it if I didn't have it.
     
  5. Debra Fritz

    Debra Fritz Guest

    On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:22:41 GMT, [email protected] (TammyM) wrote:

    snip

    >From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    >an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    >appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    >cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner.


    Go look and pick out 2 or 3 cook tops that you like...and then do more
    research. I went to at least 4 different places to compare products
    and prices...and I did research on the Web. I was amazed at the
    differences in pricing on the same things.

    > Aside from wok cooking for which
    >I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    >compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    >burner?


    IMO, no. It's nice to have..and I use it for some things, but if I
    didn't have it, I'd still be able to boil a pot of water or
    stirfry...as I did for years before I got the new CT.

    > Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?


    Sure...it would be just fine.

    >All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    >the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    >advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    >boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    >present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.


    When I was shopping for my new appliances, the 36"- 5 burner cook tops
    that had the features I wanted..simmer burners...sealed
    burners..continuous grates that were dishwasher safe..were all in the
    same price range. I didn't have a lot of choices... But that was
    over a year ago and I would guess there are more choices and better
    prices available today.
    >
    >So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    >any cook worth her salt?
    >

    Nope! Does it boil a stock pot full of water faster? Sure..but that's
    not a serious cooking issue, IMO. Can I do wok cooking? Yes, but I was
    doing some pretty good wok cooking on my old cook top that didn't have
    15K BTU's...

    It's all a question of what's important and budget. I had to spend a
    lot for the features I wanted...but you might not have to spend that
    much with the new choices available today.

    Debra
     
  6. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Guest

    TammyM wrote:
    > I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    > research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    > now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    > to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    > BTUs on that baby.
    >
    > From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    > an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    > appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    > cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    > I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    > compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    > burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    > All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    > the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    > advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    > boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    > present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.
    >
    > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    > any cook worth her salt?
    >
    > TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!



    I have a Kenmore gas stove with 4 sealed burners that I paid about $400
    for a few years ago; one of them is a little "simmer" burner and one of
    them is a high-output burner that I think is 12000 BTU's. I use those 2
    burners a lot more than the 2 normal burners. The high-output burner is
    nice even when you have it turned down low for coooking with big
    stockpots, 12" skillets, etc. because it spreads the heat over a larger
    area.

    A 15000 BTU burner (or even 18000) would be nice, but I wouldn't pay
    very much extra for it.

    Bob
     
  7. Curly Sue

    Curly Sue Guest

    TammyM wrote:

    > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    > any cook worth her salt?
    >
    > TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!


    I have a new range with a high-power (17K) burner and a simmer burner.
    I use the high power burner quite a bit. In addition to the obvious
    advantages for stir-frying and boiling water, it is nice for pan-frying
    meats because it vaporizes the juices quickly so the meat gets a nice
    browing without sitting in water. Same with vegetables. I haven't used
    the simmer burner at all but will at some point. However, I wasn't as
    anxious for that because I'd always used a flame diffuser and had no
    trouble with low heat items. I did notice that the flame on all of the
    burners on the new stove go way down without going out as well.

    So, IMO, the high power burner is worth it. Although let's face it, we
    can make do with whatever we have :>

    But the real reason I picked out this model stove is for the triple
    burner, which extends from the front to the back. It consisists of
    three 9K burners that can be used in the configurations of 1 front
    single, 1 back single, middle plus back double burner (18K), or all
    three on at once. I debated between a range with a second (smaller)
    full-service oven but no triple burner, or this model with a warming
    drawer. I picked this one because I always hated the cold spot in the
    middle of my two-burner spanning griddle. I call the triple burner my
    "pancake burner" because that's what I use it for.

    The installation guy said it's a popular model with Chinese people
    because of the 27K burner, but don't get it because the 27K is spread
    out and not focused on one spot.
     
  8. Mark Thorson

    Mark Thorson Guest

    TammyM wrote:
    >
    > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary
    > for any cook worth her salt?


    If a man is paying for it, it's absolutely necessary.
    Think of the humilation of having only a 12K burner
    if somebody else you know has 15K.
     
  9. kalanamak

    kalanamak Guest


    >

    I have a Viking with 4 different strength burners. I appreciate them
    all, but I do wok.
    As for pasta, or any other boiling liquid, I have a "cook's choice"
    electric kettle that whumps ass in the boiling water department, and
    I usually get a pot hot on the stove with a finger full of water, and
    just keep adding the boiling pots of water from the kettle. I have timed
    it and it is HALF the time even on a hot burner....keeps the kitchen
    cooler, as well.
    I urge others to consider.
    blacksalt
     
  10. Bock

    Bock Guest

    Sadly, it is never the burner, it is what one does with the burners!
    From an electric stove to gas as recently as 3 years ago, it sure is
    nice. It is an average GE gas stove. The trick to duplicating good
    Chinese food from the restaurants is not the amount of heat but the
    magic of ingredients go into the "fire" that you are able to duplciate
    the flavour of the dish.



    Dimitri wrote:
    >
    > "TammyM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    > > research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    > > now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    > > to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    > > BTUs on that baby.
    > >
    > > From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    > > an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    > > appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    > > cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    > > I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    > > compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    > > burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    > > All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    > > the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    > > advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    > > boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    > > present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.
    > >
    > > So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    > > any cook worth her salt?
    > >
    > > TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!

    >
    > There is no finite answer to your question. The average burner today is about
    > 9300 BTU. One of the burners on my cooktop is 11,000. 15K sure why not? The
    > answer is how quick do you want to heat water? How quick do you want the water
    > to recover to the boiling point? How much cooking do you do in a wok? Do you
    > like Blackened food in an old cast iron pan? How much cooking do you do fro a
    > crowd? Do you use a Dutch Oven as a Deep Fat Fryer?
    >
    > Dimitri
     
  11. Dimitri

    Dimitri Guest

    "Bock" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Sadly, it is never the burner, it is what one does with the burners!
    > From an electric stove to gas as recently as 3 years ago, it sure is
    > nice. It is an average GE gas stove. The trick to duplicating good
    > Chinese food from the restaurants is not the amount of heat but the
    > magic of ingredients go into the "fire" that you are able to duplciate
    > the flavour of the dish.


    Bullshit: read the minimum BTU requirements recommended fro the different Wok
    sizes.

    http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/features/wok1.html

    Dimitri
     
  12. Dimitri

    Dimitri Guest

    "Bock" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Sadly, it is never the burner, it is what one does with the burners!
    > From an electric stove to gas as recently as 3 years ago, it sure is
    > nice. It is an average GE gas stove. The trick to duplicating good
    > Chinese food from the restaurants is not the amount of heat but the
    > magic of ingredients go into the "fire" that you are able to duplciate
    > the flavour of the dish.


    In addition:

    http://www.foodventure.com/Book_FirePower.htm


    Dimitri
     
  13. Curly Sue

    Curly Sue Guest

    Curly Sue wrote:

    > The installation guy said it's a popular model with Chinese people
    > because of the 27K burner, but don't get it because the 27K is spread
    > out and not focused on one spot.


    Ooops, that should have been "...27K burner, but I don't get it" (i.e.,
    I don't understand)!
     
  14. RoR

    RoR Guest

    On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:22:41 GMT, [email protected] (TammyM) wrote:

    >I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    >research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    >now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    >to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    >BTUs on that baby.
    >
    >From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    >an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    >appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    >cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    >I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    >compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    >burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    >All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    >the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    >advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    >boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    >present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.
    >
    >So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    >any cook worth her salt?
    >
    >TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!



    I bought the Jenn-Aire 36" cook top. It has:
    a 36" Sealed Burner Gas Cook top. One 9,200/9,000 BTU Burner (Left Rear), Two 5,000/4,000
    BTU Burner (Left Front and Right Rear), One 15,000/14,000 BTU Burner(Center), One
    12,500/10,500 BU Burner (Right Front)

    I love it. It has a good combination of BTU burners, so I can do what I want when I want.
    As I said before, the only thing I wish it had was a way to bridge two burners with a
    grill.
     
  15. sf

    sf Guest

    On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:57:19 GMT, RoR wrote:

    > I bought the Jenn-Aire 36" cook top. It has:
    > a 36" Sealed Burner Gas Cook top. One 9,200/9,000 BTU Burner (Left Rear), Two 5,000/4,000
    > BTU Burner (Left Front and Right Rear), One 15,000/14,000 BTU Burner(Center), One
    > 12,500/10,500 BU Burner (Right Front)
    >
    > I love it. It has a good combination of BTU burners, so I can do what I want when I want.
    > As I said before, the only thing I wish it had was a way to bridge two burners with a
    > grill.


    It sounds like Curly Sue has the ultimate answer to that "cold spot".
    Her 3 burners are a real selling point!

    My "old" electric cooktop (not a stove) has a double (bbq)
    grill/griddle arrangement built into the middle, so I don't care that
    my stovetop griddle/grill has a cold spot. However, it's old and
    should be updated. Unfortunately, all the new (electric)
    configurations I've seen are singles - so I'm not in a hurry to
    "update" yet because everything still works.

    If I could find a 48" electric cooktop with a double grill - I'd
    replace it (I'm one of the "there's absolutely NO WAY will I use gas"
    people)... so if anyone knows of one, please let me know. As it is, I
    think modular drop-ins are the only way to replicate my current
    arrangement. Remember: it's an old house (1926), old/smallish
    kitchen configuration and no way to enlarge the kitchen w/o dropping
    at least $100K because it's <basically> on the second story.
     
  16. "Bock" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Sadly, it is never the burner, it is what one does with the burners!
    > From an electric stove to gas as recently as 3 years ago, it sure is
    > nice. It is an average GE gas stove. The trick to duplicating good
    > Chinese food from the restaurants is not the amount of heat but the
    > magic of ingredients go into the "fire" that you are able to duplciate
    > the flavour of the dish.
    >
    >
    >


    True if you exclude wok stir fry. If you include stir fry dishes the amount
    of food that you can fry at once (ie the number of serves of a dish you can
    put on the table at once) depends directly on the power of the burner.

    David
     
  17. Sheldon

    Sheldon Guest

    Bock wrote:
    > Sadly, it is never the burner, it is what one does with the burners!
    > From an electric stove to gas as recently as 3 years ago, it sure is
    > nice. It is an average GE gas stove. The trick to duplicating good
    > Chinese food from the restaurants is not the amount of heat but the
    > magic of ingredients go into the "fire" that you are able to duplciate
    > the flavour of the dish.


    Actually it's everything... a million BTUs won't help with poor cooking
    skills and crappy recipes, but for proper stir frying high heat with
    *rapid recovery* is absolutely essential... even the best oriental chef
    will turn out little more than wimpy stews without the BTUs, so it IS
    the burner too.

    Those who claim to turn out great stir frys on their wimpy stove tops
    are fooling themselve but they're not fooling me... even 1500BTUs isn't
    close to enough unless you do stir fry one cup at a time. I can
    prepare a lot of good Chinese dishes with my ordinary stove top (chow
    mein, all sorts of soups, shrimp in lobster sauce etc.) but not stir
    fry... can't do fried rice without at least 30,000BTUs... okay,
    with 1500BTUs you can make one cup at a time. Trying to stir fry with
    only 15,000BTUs is like trying to toast a marshmallow with a match.

    Anyone going to spend big bucks for any conventional stove because they
    think it will do wok cooking is doing mental masturbation.

    Sheldon
     
  18. TammyM

    TammyM Guest

    Top posting!
    Thanks to everyone who responded, I appreciate your input. Like Curly
    Sue, burner configuration is important to me -- the one I'm leaning
    toward has 3 burners across the back. Like Debra Fritz, I'm really
    thinking that huge fire power would not be used sufficient to warrant
    the extra expense. I'm probably going to spend every penny saved
    (plus quite a few pennies on top of that!) an over-the-cooktop
    microwave (with vent) AND on my new countertops. No new cabinetry at
    this time, unless I win the lottery :)

    Thanks again, everyone!
    TammyM, scheming and dreaming of her newish kitchen

    p.s. to Squidboy: the only person paying for this kitchen is moi -
    there's no pathetic male with burner envy in the picture here ;-)


    On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:22:41 GMT, [email protected] (TammyM) wrote:

    >I've been following the previous cooktop thread, and also doing some
    >research in preparation for buying a new gas cooktop. The one I have
    >now is an O'Keefe and Merritt 4-burner, circa 1957 (?) It is a PITA
    >to clean. It has one high-power burner, I've no clue what are the
    >BTUs on that baby.
    >
    >From what little online research I've done (and I'm about to embark on
    >an in-person research expedition to the local "established in 1937"
    >appliance store), it would seem that cost goes up significantly for
    >cooktops that have a 15K BTU burner. Aside from wok cooking for which
    >I can understand that big fire power is desirable, is there a
    >compelling reason to spend the extra dosh to get a CT with a 15KBTU
    >burner? Or would something in the 11-12.5K range do me just ducky?
    >All of the medium price-range cooktops I've looked at with less than
    >the 15kBTUer have low simmer burners (and that strikes me as an
    >advantage that every cook here would enjoy!), closed burners (hoooooo
    >boy, does that seem like a huge advantage to me after cleaning my
    >present cooktop for 10 years!!!), and continuous dishwashable grates.
    >
    >So. What say ye? Is 15K BTU overkill, or absolutely necessary for
    >any cook worth her salt?
    >
    >TammyM, not looking to spend money unnecessarily!
     
  19. Dog3

    Dog3 Guest

    [email protected] (TammyM) wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Top posting!
    > Thanks to everyone who responded, I appreciate your input. Like Curly
    > Sue, burner configuration is important to me -- the one I'm leaning
    > toward has 3 burners across the back. Like Debra Fritz, I'm really
    > thinking that huge fire power would not be used sufficient to warrant
    > the extra expense. I'm probably going to spend every penny saved
    > (plus quite a few pennies on top of that!) an over-the-cooktop
    > microwave (with vent) AND on my new countertops. No new cabinetry at
    > this time, unless I win the lottery :)


    Tammy, just got in on this thread. Congrats on your decision. *sigh*, I
    want new everything in the kitchen but it's not in the cards right now. I
    do have a question for you. What made you decide on the over-the-cooktop
    microwave (with vent)? I've heard really bad things about them and I've
    heard really good things about them. I would really like to put one in,
    but don't want the waste the $ if I'm going to be unhappy with it. I would
    really, really like to free up the counter space the current nuker hogs up.


    >
    > Thanks again, everyone!
    > TammyM, scheming and dreaming of her newish kitchen
    >
    > p.s. to Squidboy: the only person paying for this kitchen is moi -
    > there's no pathetic male with burner envy in the picture here ;-)


    I have burner envy, big time =;o)

    Michael
     
  20. TammyM

    TammyM Guest

    On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:36:58 GMT, Dog3 <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] (TammyM) wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> Top posting!
    >> Thanks to everyone who responded, I appreciate your input. Like Curly
    >> Sue, burner configuration is important to me -- the one I'm leaning
    >> toward has 3 burners across the back. Like Debra Fritz, I'm really
    >> thinking that huge fire power would not be used sufficient to warrant
    >> the extra expense. I'm probably going to spend every penny saved
    >> (plus quite a few pennies on top of that!) an over-the-cooktop
    >> microwave (with vent) AND on my new countertops. No new cabinetry at
    >> this time, unless I win the lottery :)

    >
    >Tammy, just got in on this thread. Congrats on your decision. *sigh*, I
    >want new everything in the kitchen but it's not in the cards right now. I
    >do have a question for you. What made you decide on the over-the-cooktop
    >microwave (with vent)? I've heard really bad things about them and I've
    >heard really good things about them. I would really like to put one in,
    >but don't want the waste the $ if I'm going to be unhappy with it. I would
    >really, really like to free up the counter space the current nuker hogs up.


    I have the most pathetic hood in the hood :) It doesn't work AT ALL.
    And it looks cheesy. I could forgive it for looking cheesy if it
    WORKED! A friend of mine has the MW-vent thing, and it works great,
    and it's SO convenient having the MW and the CT in the same place.
    Plus it frees up counterspace - I have the wooly mammoth of
    microwaves. It was my grandmother's, and is 20-ish years old. I am
    really looking forward to more counterspace. I use my MW for a lot
    more than popcorn and leftovers, and I'm looking forward to enjoying
    the innovations in MWs compared to my Pleistocene era MW ;-)
    (note to Grandma: I have really appreciated that MW all these years,
    so please don't think I'm ungrateful! ;-) )

    Michael, the MW I'm looking at is the GE Profile. I don't know the
    model number but it does everything but sashay through the kitchen in
    a French maid's outfit :)

    >> Thanks again, everyone!
    >> TammyM, scheming and dreaming of her newish kitchen
    >>
    >> p.s. to Squidboy: the only person paying for this kitchen is moi -
    >> there's no pathetic male with burner envy in the picture here ;-)

    >
    >I have burner envy, big time =;o)


    It ain't the size, baby, it's what you do with it :))))))))))))))))
     
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