Gels vs Gatorade

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by scottt, Jul 19, 2004.

  1. Terry Morse <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Welcome to the subtle art of argument. I have no skin in this game,
    > and I'm ready to be convinced by evidence--one way or the other. The
    > "that's what successful athletes use"(*) argument was pretty weak,
    > for obvious reasons. So I shot it down.


    Earlier posts in this thread made it sound as if simple sugars
    were undesirable because the rider has to walk (ride?) a fine line
    between underfueling and bonking, or inducing a blood sugar
    spike and crash. Many people do long rides successfully
    without worrying too much about sucrose vs. maltodextrin or the
    glycemic index and concentration of their energy drink and/or food.
    So in that respect it is useful evidence that simple sugars are not
    an evil which must be avoided. Hell, I'm told Jobst rides on Snickers
    and Coke (but Jobst is an outlier in most respects, so perhaps we
    shouldn't go there).

    Now if we want to refine the problem to "what is the ideal fuel
    for the last two hours of an eight hour ride when you're half dead"
    or "does maltodextrin have benefits over sucrose in certain
    circumstances" maybe some agreement can be reached.

    BTW, I think it is difficult to drink enough Gatorade to get the
    necessary carbohydrates on a long ride, but it could be useful to
    provide _some_, because it reduces the amount of solid food you
    need to eat. Esp. important for people who have difficulty
    eating or keeping down solid food during hard rides.

    I've found Monique Ryan's nutrition columns on Velonews.com to
    have information that seems well-justified and is low in hype.

    ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
    For a quality usenet news server, try DNEWS, easy to install,
    fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class
    installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow!
    ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dnews.htm ----
     


  2. scottt

    scottt Guest

    Paul Kopit <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 19 Jul 2004 17:11:17 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech you wrote:
    >
    > >Any clue as to what works best...? I ride between two and four-hours a
    > >ride--a few times a week (also teach spinning classes twice-a-week). I
    > >average about 80-100 rpm and also push around 16-20 mph.I always
    > >hydrate before I ride and bring at least one large bottle of water and
    > >a bottle of mixed accelerade. Last year, as well into this season, I
    > >have been using Hammer gel as another source of fuel (especially on
    > >longer rides).I'm feeling great, and pose this question to see if
    > >anyone has better results with a mix of water/gels, or bars and
    > >water/energy drinks or any other combo. My Tri buddy swears by eating
    > >a good breakfast and drinking only Gatorade...He also mentioned that
    > >one dosen't get any more bag for your buck/carbs etc. using sport
    > >drinks and gels. Is he more loopy that usual?

    >
    > The Hammergel is lower glycemic index than the Gatorade and takes a
    > bit longer to get into your system. It costs $1 for 100 calories.
    > The Gatorade provides very little calories per bottle but you will
    > hydrate better on a weak sugar solution than on plain water.
    >
    > For your 2 hour ride, you need good hydration and a full tank of
    > calories when you start. At your steady pace, you won't need that
    > much additional calories. For your 4 hour ride, a pop tart or two, a
    > bagel, or candy bar will do fine. Look to get about 400 calories/hr.
    > of something that lasts a while. 150 calories of soda pop doesn't
    > last long. It's better to eat small amounts often than a 230 calorie
    > energy bar in one shot.


    Thanks Paul... Sounds simple enough.

    Scottt
     
  3. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Terry Morse:

    > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    >
    > > I know it makes me look like a petty asshole, but I've got to repost
    > > this, which was written earlier this this thread by someone else:
    > >
    > > "Everything I've described is the state of the art when it comes to
    > > nutrition for the endurance athlete. Dozens of studies have looked
    > > at these issues, in the lab and out. What you have described is
    > > nonsense."

    >
    > That someone else was yours truly, thank you. Got the discussion
    > going, didn't it?


    Now you're stating that you've made the above statement to provoke a
    discussion, rather than as a result of your lack of knowledge on the
    subject. Do you really manage to convince people using this dodge?

    > Now we all know more than we did before.


    Not "we all"; obviously Tomlinson, Coggan and others already knew.

    > What John
    > described wasn't in the end nonsense, he just couldn't defend it
    > very well.


    Which doesn't make him wrong.
     
  4. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Terry Morse:

    > Welcome to the subtle art of argument. I have no skin in this game,
    > and I'm ready to be convinced by evidence--one way or the other.


    Calling others' arguments as "nonsense" does not seem like an open mind
    ready to be convinced.

    > The "that's what successful athletes use"(*) argument was pretty weak,
    > for obvious reasons. So I shot it down.


    Equally weak is the flawed, biased publication attempted to be passed
    off as "state of the art".

    > (*) same argument used in years past to justify tied-and-soldered
    > spokes, ankling, etc.


    Ditto.
     
  5. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    Jose Rizal wrote:

    > Now you're stating that you've made the above statement to provoke a
    > discussion, rather than as a result of your lack of knowledge on the
    > subject. Do you really manage to convince people using this dodge?


    If I had been forthright up front and written "I received this
    booklet from a sports nutrition company that claims...", I doubt the
    discussion would have been as lively, or as informative. So please
    pardon the bit of subterfuge.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
     
  6. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:51:42 -0700, Terry Morse <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Jose Rizal wrote:
    >
    >> Now you're stating that you've made the above statement to provoke a
    >> discussion, rather than as a result of your lack of knowledge on the
    >> subject. Do you really manage to convince people using this dodge?

    >
    >If I had been forthright up front and written "I received this
    >booklet from a sports nutrition company that claims...", I doubt the
    >discussion would have been as lively, or as informative. So please
    >pardon the bit of subterfuge.


    Give it up. You weren't trying to elicit discussion and new info.
    You were trying to prove you were right and educate people with what
    you believed and end it there. Didn't work.

    JT
     
  7. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

    > Terry Morse wrote:
    >
    > >If I had been forthright up front and written "I received this
    > >booklet from a sports nutrition company that claims...", I doubt the
    > >discussion would have been as lively, or as informative. So please
    > >pardon the bit of subterfuge.

    >
    > Give it up. You weren't trying to elicit discussion and new info.
    > You were trying to prove you were right and educate people with what
    > you believed and end it there. Didn't work.


    Although you may think you're able to read my mind, you can't. Even
    I have trouble doing that sometimes. Thank you for the spirited
    discussion, and I hope you realize that I was aiming "above the
    neck".
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
     
  8. > >Any clue as to what works best...? I ride between two and four-hours a
    > >ride--a few times a week (also teach spinning classes twice-a-week). I
    > >average about 80-100 rpm and also push around 16-20 mph.I always
    > >hydrate before I ride and bring at least one large bottle of water and
    > >a bottle of mixed accelerade. Last year, as well into this season, I
    > >have been using Hammer gel as another source of fuel (especially on
    > >longer rides).I'm feeling great, and pose this question to see if
    > >anyone has better results with a mix of water/gels, or bars and
    > >water/energy drinks or any other combo. My Tri buddy swears by eating
    > >a good breakfast and drinking only Gatorade...He also mentioned that
    > >one dosen't get any more bag for your buck/carbs etc. using sport
    > >drinks and gels. Is he more loopy that usual?

    >
    > For your 2 hour ride, you need good hydration and a full tank of
    > calories when you start. At your steady pace, you won't need that
    > much additional calories. For your 4 hour ride, a pop tart or two, a
    > bagel, or candy bar will do fine. Look to get about 400 calories/hr.
    > of something that lasts a while. 150 calories of soda pop doesn't
    > last long. It's better to eat small amounts often than a 230 calorie
    > energy bar in one shot.


    You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.

    Fabs?

    Honestly, though, I must admit that I did fill one water bottle with
    Rice Dream(tm), and started drinking from it right away. I think that
    it would have been a very very different experience without that. My
    favorite sports drink is carrot juice, second favorite is Horchata
    (Mexican rice milk sweetened with sugar) and plain rice milk third.

    -dkl
     
  9. On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas Landau)
    wrote:


    >
    >You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    >hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    >rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.


    If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    faster, or done the rider more easily.

    JT
     
  10. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:31:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas Landau)
    >wrote:
    >
    >
    >>
    >>You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    >>hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    >>rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.

    >
    >If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    >faster, or done the rider more easily.


    Two hours doesn't require a feed. Just liquids depending on weather and how
    tanked up you were to start.

    Ron
     
  11. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:11:14 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:31:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas Landau)
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>>You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    >>>hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    >>>rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.

    >>
    >>If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    >>faster, or done the rider more easily.

    >
    >Two hours doesn't require a feed. Just liquids depending on weather and how
    >tanked up you were to start.


    Do you think the guy I was questioning did 80 miles in 95 degree
    weather in two hours?

    JT
     
  12. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:20:31 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:11:14 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:31:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas Landau)
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    >>>>hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    >>>>rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.
    >>>
    >>>If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    >>>faster, or done the rider more easily.

    >>
    >>Two hours doesn't require a feed. Just liquids depending on weather and how
    >>tanked up you were to start.

    >
    >Do you think the guy I was questioning did 80 miles in 95 degree
    >weather in two hours?


    You're right, he would've gone further if he'd eaten more. Probably should've
    brought an egg fu young with him in a zip-lock and eaten it between miles 37 and
    42.

    Ron
     
  13. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:11:14 GMT, RonSonic

    <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:31:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >>On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas

    Landau)
    > >>wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>
    > >>>You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of

    calories for a 2
    > >>>hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty

    stomach and
    > >>>rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.
    > >>
    > >>If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have

    gone
    > >>faster, or done the rider more easily.

    > >
    > >Two hours doesn't require a feed. Just liquids depending on

    weather and how
    > >tanked up you were to start.

    >
    > Do you think the guy I was questioning did 80 miles in 95

    degree
    > weather in two hours?


    I have done 80 miles in less than two hours in 95 degree weather
    without drinking. It was somewhere around Sacramento. In my car.
    Man, was I parched after that. Slammed down a whole bottle of
    rice milk. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  14. > >>>You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    > >>>hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    > >>>rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.
    > >>
    > >>If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    > >>faster, or done the rider more easily.


    absolutely.

    > >Two hours doesn't require a feed. Just liquids depending on weather and how
    > >tanked up you were to start.


    This is true also.

    What I am beginning to question is the importance of having full tanks
    of calories and water at the outset versus the importance of establishing
    and maintaining the flow of them through you right from the start
     
  15. "Douglas Landau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > What I am beginning to question is the importance of having full tanks
    > of calories and water at the outset versus the importance of establishing
    > and maintaining the flow of them through you right from the start


    That was pretty much answered if you watched the Tour on OLN.
    You have to maintain the calories and fluid intake throughout your ride.
    -tom
     
  16. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:44:40 -0700, "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Douglas Landau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> What I am beginning to question is the importance of having full tanks
    >> of calories and water at the outset versus the importance of establishing
    >> and maintaining the flow of them through you right from the start

    >
    >That was pretty much answered if you watched the Tour on OLN.
    >You have to maintain the calories and fluid intake throughout your ride.


    If I were built anything like a TdF GC contender or rode anything like them,
    then I would have to eat like them. I don't spend six hours in the saddle, day
    after day.

    Now fluid intake can be another thing entirely, especially here in Florida. We
    can go through some water.

    Ron
     
  17. "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > If I were built anything like a TdF GC contender or rode anything like

    them,
    > then I would have to eat like them. I don't spend six hours in the saddle,

    day
    > after day.
    >
    > Now fluid intake can be another thing entirely, especially here in

    Florida. We
    > can go through some water.
    >
    > Ron


    So tell me, what's a TdF GC contender built like?
    There are many cyclist that aren't TdF GC riders who are in pretty good
    shape, and can easily spend 6+ hours in the saddle. We need to replenish
    our calories and fluid intake on long rides.
    -tom
     
  18. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:34:22 -0700, "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> If I were built anything like a TdF GC contender or rode anything like

    >them,
    >> then I would have to eat like them. I don't spend six hours in the saddle,

    >day
    >> after day.
    >>
    >> Now fluid intake can be another thing entirely, especially here in

    >Florida. We
    >> can go through some water.
    >>
    >> Ron

    >
    >So tell me, what's a TdF GC contender built like?


    No surplus body mass. To an extreme.

    >There are many cyclist that aren't TdF GC riders who are in pretty good
    >shape, and can easily spend 6+ hours in the saddle. We need to replenish
    >our calories and fluid intake on long rides.


    Yes, you do. I never said you didn't. Go back and notice words like "I" and "Me"
    in what I wrote.

    And riding 6 hours in a day is not the same as 6 hours every day. And it sure as
    hell isn't the 2-3 hour ride that many more people (like myself, who I was
    talking about) do. And again for that 2-3 hour ride it makes no sense to pretend
    you're a TdF rider and eat like one.

    Ron
     
  19. "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > And riding 6 hours in a day is not the same as 6 hours every day. And it

    sure as
    > hell isn't the 2-3 hour ride that many more people (like myself, who I was
    > talking about) do. And again for that 2-3 hour ride it makes no sense to

    pretend
    > you're a TdF rider and eat like one.
    >
    > Ron


    I think you're right, if you're just going out for a joy ride for 2-3 hours,
    then it probably doesn't matter how you prepare.
    -tom
     
  20. > I have done 80 miles in less than two hours in 95 degree weather
    > without drinking. It was somewhere around Sacramento. In my car.
    > Man, was I parched after that. Slammed down a whole bottle of
    > rice milk. -- Jay Beattie.


    Dam. Where did you find it in bottles?

    It's not exactly easy to find.

    I have gone so far as to make it in the blender. It comes out
    very chalky and lumpy that way but tastes okay if you add a bit
    of cinnamin sugar or chocolate milk powder. The texture is worth
    putting up with, IMHO

    dkl
     
Loading...
Loading...