Gels vs Gatorade

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by scottt, Jul 19, 2004.

  1. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 27 Jul 2004 14:24:20 -0700, [email protected] (Douglas Landau)
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    > >
    > >You mean -you- need good hydration and a full tank of calories for a 2
    > >hour ride. I hopped on late saturday morning on an empty stomach and
    > >rode 80 miles in 95 degree sun with no problem.

    >
    > If you practiced proper hydration and feeding you would have gone
    > faster, or done the rider more easily.
    >
    > JT


    Also, it deppends on how hard you ride. The body can go for quite a
    long time on stored fat alone, as long as the exertion level is not
    too intense. Fat is the most efficient producer of energy, I think
    (Andy, don't hesitate to blast me if I say something dumb). So, you
    could probably ride a century w/o eating anything if you stay in a
    relaxed aerobic pace. Problem is that once you increase intensity, fat
    metabolism is too slow and breaking down sugar, although, not as
    efficient, is a lot faster. But, as soon as the sugar is gone, you
    cannot pedal fast anymore. So, you either get more sugar, or you slow
    down the pace. Bonking is just that. Once you bonk, you don't have any
    more sugar to give you energy for intese riding. However, if you slow
    down the pace, you can keep riding for several more hours by reverting
    to getting energy from fat sources.

    I remember reading that in the late eighties they wanted to get
    cyclists to be more efficeint fat burners. So, they used to have andy
    Hampsten and company ride long rides with no carb intake so that the
    body would get better at metabolizing fat. I don't know how well it
    worked. This is also the principle of Atkins. Because there are no
    sugars to break down, the body is forced to metabolize fat. But Atkins
    is not a good diet for intense sports. Also, Atkins will destroy your
    kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer.

    Andres
     


  2. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    [...]

    > is not a good diet for intense sports. Also, Atkins will destroy your
    > kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer.


    What a load of crap.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  3. Don Wagner

    Don Wagner Guest

    [email protected] (andres muro) wrote:
    >Also, it deppends on how hard you ride. The body can go for quite a
    >long time on stored fat alone, as long as the exertion level is not
    >too intense.


    But stored energy and hydration are two different birds. You can sit
    still in hot, humid weather and become dehydrate rather quickly.
    Riding uses up fluids at a stupendous rate if you are pushing it.

    >Because there are no sugars to break down, the body is forced to metabolize fat.


    Doesn't fat stop burning when the lactic threshold is exceeded?
    Essentialy you run out of oxygen to burn (aerobic vs. anaerobic).
    Working off of an old article and from memory, so I could be dead
    wrong.
    ;-)

    > Also, Atkins will destroy your kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer.


    I knew there was something I liked about Atkins.
    ;-)

    What if I brewed a Bacon Beer?
    --Don--
    The beatings will continue until morale improves.
     
  4. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    [email protected] (Don Wagner) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (andres muro) wrote:
    > >Also, it deppends on how hard you ride. The body can go for quite a
    > >long time on stored fat alone, as long as the exertion level is not
    > >too intense.

    >
    > But stored energy and hydration are two different birds. You can sit
    > still in hot, humid weather and become dehydrate rather quickly.
    > Riding uses up fluids at a stupendous rate if you are pushing it.


    If it is 95 degrees and you are going to do a long ride, you need to
    drink water. Technically, with water alone, you should be able to
    finish if you don't go beyond aerobic. Your body should be able to use
    fat for fuel. I guess that if you only sweat very little, you may be
    able to finish the ride with little water, but I wouldn't recommend
    trying it.
    >
    > >Because there are no sugars to break down, the body is forced to metabolize fat.

    >
    > Doesn't fat stop burning when the lactic threshold is exceeded?
    > Essentialy you run out of oxygen to burn (aerobic vs. anaerobic).
    > Working off of an old article and from memory, so I could be dead
    > wrong.


    Correcto! This is the reason that you need sugar to increase your
    intensity. So, you cannot do an intense ride on fat alone because once
    you cross the aerobic threashhold your body stops being able to
    metabolize fat. however, since Atkins prohibits you from eating sugar
    you cannot metabolize anything else. So, no fuel = bonk. So, when you
    are doing the atkins diet, you don't have sugar to give you energy at
    higher intensity. Therefore, with atkins, you have to stay aerobic all
    the time. This is how I understand it.

    > ;-)
    >
    > > Also, Atkins will destroy your kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer.

    >
    > I knew there was something I liked about Atkins.
    > ;-)


    This part, I am not too sure of. Atkins is a high protein diet. What I
    understand is that protein is hard to diggest and you end up with lots
    of calcium deposits in your kidneys. Technically you need to flush
    them down by drinking lots of fluids. Beer is supossed to be a good
    way to flush your kidneys. However, beer is high in carbs so it may
    contradict Atkins to begin with :-(

    Andres


    >
    > What if I brewed a Bacon Beer?
    > --Don--
    > The beatings will continue until morale improves.
     
  5. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    Dough robert Shelby, or is it Daniel richard shoughnesey, or Dilbert
    raul silverstein, or Dagoberto ronaldo stark counteropined to my
    opinion with

    "What a load of crap."

    Hey, whatever your name is, thanks for the constructive retort. Could
    you clarify, for our edification, which part consisted of a bunch of
    fecal matter and why? thnx,

    Andres
     
  6. Don Wagner

    Don Wagner Guest

    [email protected] (andres muro) wrote:
    >If it is 95 degrees and you are going to do a long ride, you need to
    >drink water. Technically, with water alone, you should be able to
    >finish if you don't go beyond aerobic.


    Not too sure about that. I've been on such rides (high temp, metric
    centuries, 15+mph) where people have entered a state where they are
    properly hydrated but nearly dead due to electrolyte depletion.

    A mix of sports drinks and water plus and energy bar would have saved
    them an afternoon in the emergency room.

    >This part, I am not too sure of. Atkins is a high protein diet. What I
    >understand is that protein is hard to diggest and you end up with lots
    >of calcium deposits in your kidneys.


    Not too sure about that one either. Some proteins are more difficult
    to digest then others, this is true. Red meat can sit undigested in
    your body for a hideously long time. Most common fish breaks down
    pretty easy.

    Calcium deposits in the kidneys are often associated with an gross
    overabundance of vit. D. Oddly enough, vit D also is one of the
    primary regulators of calcium absorbsion.
    --Don--
    The beatings will continue until morale improves.
     
  7. S o r n i

    S o r n i Guest

    andres muro wrote:
    > Dough robert Shelby, or is it Daniel richard shoughnesey, or Dilbert
    > raul silverstein, or Dagoberto ronaldo stark counteropined to my
    > opinion with
    >
    > "What a load of crap."
    >
    > Hey, whatever your name is, thanks for the constructive retort. Could
    > you clarify, for our edification, which part consisted of a bunch of
    > fecal matter and why? thnx,


    Why did you delete all the context from this?!?

    Bill "baffled" S.
     
  8. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > andres muro wrote:
    > > Dough robert Shelby, or is it Daniel richard shoughnesey, or Dilbert
    > > raul silverstein, or Dagoberto ronaldo stark counteropined to my
    > > opinion with
    > >
    > > "What a load of crap."
    > >
    > > Hey, whatever your name is, thanks for the constructive retort. Could
    > > you clarify, for our edification, which part consisted of a bunch of
    > > fecal matter and why? thnx,

    >
    > Why did you delete all the context from this?!?
    >
    > Bill "baffled" S.



    Sorry, that was rude of me. this is what DRS quoted from me:

    "[...]

    > is not a good diet for intense sports. Also, Atkins will destroy your
    > kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer."


    Andres
     
  9. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    [email protected] (Don Wagner) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (andres muro) wrote:
    > >If it is 95 degrees and you are going to do a long ride, you need to
    > >drink water. Technically, with water alone, you should be able to
    > >finish if you don't go beyond aerobic.

    >
    > Not too sure about that. I've been on such rides (high temp, metric
    > centuries, 15+mph) where people have entered a state where they are
    > properly hydrated but nearly dead due to electrolyte depletion.


    I agree, but I have also seen people that don't sweat too much
    finishing on water alone. I don't recommend it but it can happen.
    >
    > A mix of sports drinks and water plus and energy bar would have saved
    > them an afternoon in the emergency room.
    >
    > >This part, I am not too sure of. Atkins is a high protein diet. What I
    > >understand is that protein is hard to diggest and you end up with lots
    > >of calcium deposits in your kidneys.

    >
    > Not too sure about that one either. Some proteins are more difficult
    > to digest then others, this is true. Red meat can sit undigested in
    > your body for a hideously long time. Most common fish breaks down
    > pretty easy.
    >
    > Calcium deposits in the kidneys are often associated with an gross
    > overabundance of vit. D. Oddly enough, vit D also is one of the
    > primary regulators of calcium absorbsion.


    There is a lot of literature about this on the internet if you do a
    search on atkins and kidney stones. The argument is that protein rich
    diets are also rich in sulfur based amino acids resulting in high
    levels of sulfuric acid. sulfuric acid causes calcium erosion of the
    bones that ends up accumulating in your kidneys. It may also lead to
    osteoporosis.

    BTW, take this for whatever it is worth. I am not a physiologist. I am
    just parroting what I've read and it wasn't in peer reviewed
    publications. For the ultimate knowledge in this stuff you need to ask
    andy Coggan.

    Andres

    > --Don--
    > The beatings will continue until morale improves.
     
  10. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Dough robert Shelby, or is it Daniel richard shoughnesey, or Dilbert
    > raul silverstein, or Dagoberto ronaldo stark counteropined to my
    > opinion with
    >
    > "What a load of crap."
    >
    > Hey, whatever your name is, thanks for the constructive retort. Could
    > you clarify, for our edification, which part consisted of a bunch of
    > fecal matter and why? thnx,


    The bit I left in and you cut out. The idea that high protein diets cause
    kidney disease is utter bullshit.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  11. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Don Wagner wrote:

    > [email protected] (andres muro) wrote:
    >
    >>If it is 95 degrees and you are going to do a long ride, you need to
    >>drink water. Technically, with water alone, you should be able to
    >>finish if you don't go beyond aerobic.

    >
    >
    > Not too sure about that. I've been on such rides (high temp, metric
    > centuries, 15+mph) where people have entered a state where they are
    > properly hydrated but nearly dead due to electrolyte depletion....


    Hyponatremia feels bad enough that one may temporarily feel that death
    is preferable. :(

    --
    Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
     
  12. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    since I am not a doctor, I cannot contest your claim, however, I did a
    google search and this is what came out;

    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=high+protein+kidney+stones

    you'll get links to lots of info about this. since I don't know your
    credentials, or who you are, it is hard for me to put any credibility
    in your statement, so, can you back it up? Or am I to presume that
    "DRS" means "doctors" and, hence you possess the knowledge of many
    physicians.

    Andres



    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Dough robert Shelby, or is it Daniel richard shoughnesey, or Dilbert
    > > raul silverstein, or Dagoberto ronaldo stark counteropined to my
    > > opinion with
    > >
    > > "What a load of crap."
    > >
    > > Hey, whatever your name is, thanks for the constructive retort. Could
    > > you clarify, for our edification, which part consisted of a bunch of
    > > fecal matter and why? thnx,

    >
    > The bit I left in and you cut out. The idea that high protein diets cause
    > kidney disease is utter bullshit.
     
  13. DRS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> is not a good diet for intense sports. Also, Atkins will destroy your
    >> kidneys unless you drink a lot of beer.

    >
    > What a load of crap.


    for most american beers, yes, but there are a few exceptions. probably.
    --
    david reuteler
    [email protected]
     
  14. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > since I am not a doctor, I cannot contest your claim, however, I did a
    > google search and this is what came out;
    >
    >

    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=high+protein+kidney+stones
    >
    > you'll get links to lots of info about this. since I don't know your
    > credentials, or who you are, it is hard for me to put any credibility
    > in your statement, so, can you back it up?


    The question is, since you made the original claim, can you back it up?
    Sheer number of hits on Google is evidence of nothing in particular. The
    net is a great way to propagate urban myths, like that protein causes kidney
    problems. You clearly don't know how to evaluate the quality of the
    material Google dredged up. Unhappily for you scaremongers it's trash.

    What the published peer-reviewed studies in reputable journals show is that:

    1. High protein with insufficient calcium leads to net calcium loss
    2. High protein with sufficient calcium leads to net calcium gain

    IOW, you cannot just point at the amount of protein and say it's the culprit
    in either osteoporosis (weight bearing exercise or lack of it matters most
    here) or kidney stones (urinary volume matters most even in people
    predisposed to them). It's multifactorial.

    eg.

    "Increasing protein intake may have a favorable effect on change in [bone
    mineral density] in elderly subjects supplemented with calcium citrate
    malate and vitamin D"

    Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Apr;75(4):773-9
    Comment in: Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Apr;75(4):609-10.
    Calcium intake influences the association of protein intake with rates of
    bone loss in elderly men and women.
    Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS.
    Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory, Jean Mayer US Department of
    Agriculture
    Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston, MA
    02111,
    USA. [email protected]
    PMID: 11916767

    If the protein intake is very high, carb and water intake low, decreases in
    blood pH can increase the risk for kidney stones. About 10% of the
    population is predisposed towards kidney stones. Most doctors don't
    recommend limiting calcium consumption even in people prone to them. The
    major factor, even in that subgroup, is low urinary volume. If you are
    sufficiently hydrated (ie, if you piss often enough) then you run no
    particular extra risk of kidney stones just because you're on a high protein
    diet. If it were otherwise then weightlifters, who as a group have lived on
    high protein diets for decades, should report statistically significantly
    higher rates of kidney stones.

    > Or am I to presume that
    > "DRS" means "doctors" and, hence you possess the knowledge of many
    > physicians.


    Just stop top-posting.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  15. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > since I am not a doctor, I cannot contest your claim, however, I did a
    > > google search and this is what came out;
    > >
    > >

    > http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=high+protein+kidney+stones
    > >
    > > you'll get links to lots of info about this. since I don't know your
    > > credentials, or who you are, it is hard for me to put any credibility
    > > in your statement, so, can you back it up?

    >
    > The question is, since you made the original claim, can you back it up?
    > Sheer number of hits on Google is evidence of nothing in particular. The
    > net is a great way to propagate urban myths, like that protein causes kidney
    > problems. You clearly don't know how to evaluate the quality of the
    > material Google dredged up. Unhappily for you scaremongers it's trash.


    Yeah, and my original claim was that you needed to flush your kidneys
    if you went to a high protein diet. I suggested beer, because it is a
    good way to keep flushing them, and also to be humorous. My originaly
    claim wasn't about osteoporosis.

    You called my statement utter bs but never bothered to explain why,
    when in fact, high protein diets may be tough in your kidney unless
    you hydrate properly. Moreover, high protein diets, according to what
    you site, may pose risk of osteoporosis under certain circumstances.
    Your two references recommend high protein diets for the elderly
    supplemented with other stuff (is tis the best you can do?). While, we
    can extrapolate from your citations that you may apply this to other
    groups, scientifically, this is a no, no. this is ironic since you are
    trying to sound all mighty and ridicule my use of the internet while
    posting references from a nutrition journal, and then you generalize
    from two articles talking abouth the elderly under certain
    constraints.

    Essentially, what you are claiming is that high protein in combination
    with low hydration is tough on your kidneys. High protein with low
    calcium intake may decrease bone density. interestingly, low calcium
    intake and poor hydration are common habits. So, there are risks in a
    high protein diet, unless you supplement them accordingly.

    Regarding the websites that I listed, many are non commercial websites
    about health which refer to peer reviewed journals. I didn't click
    and post some selected ones because it was a pain in the butt to go
    back and forth, but, since you seem to read health related peer
    reviewed journals, I figure that you are able to go to the link and
    you'll find many sites that support my claim, and it turns out, yours
    too, that are legitimate non commercial sites. Do you really want me
    to do this for you? Since you are so sensitive about top posting, you
    are probably smart enough to navigate the internet yourelf.

    Since I am not in the health field, I do not have health related
    journals at home, so the way I get the info is to use the internet to
    identify sites that provide information and sort through them. this is
    what most of us do when we are not experts in a field. Finally, why
    the hell did you state that what I was saying was utter bullshit, and
    then you post references and make statements to the contrary? Are you
    illiterate like the incumbent, or simply uncertain like the
    challenger?

    Andres

    >
    > What the published peer-reviewed studies in reputable journals show is that:
    >
    > 1. High protein with insufficient calcium leads to net calcium loss
    > 2. High protein with sufficient calcium leads to net calcium gain
    >
    > IOW, you cannot just point at the amount of protein and say it's the culprit
    > in either osteoporosis (weight bearing exercise or lack of it matters most
    > here) or kidney stones (urinary volume matters most even in people
    > predisposed to them). It's multifactorial.
    >
    > eg.
    >
    > "Increasing protein intake may have a favorable effect on change in [bone
    > mineral density] in elderly subjects supplemented with calcium citrate
    > malate and vitamin D"
    >
    > Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Apr;75(4):773-9
    > Comment in: Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Apr;75(4):609-10.
    > Calcium intake influences the association of protein intake with rates of
    > bone loss in elderly men and women.
    > Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS.
    > Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory, Jean Mayer US Department of
    > Agriculture
    > Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston, MA
    > 02111,
    > USA. [email protected]
    > PMID: 11916767
    >
    > If the protein intake is very high, carb and water intake low, decreases in
    > blood pH can increase the risk for kidney stones. About 10% of the
    > population is predisposed towards kidney stones. Most doctors don't
    > recommend limiting calcium consumption even in people prone to them. The
    > major factor, even in that subgroup, is low urinary volume. If you are
    > sufficiently hydrated (ie, if you piss often enough) then you run no
    > particular extra risk of kidney stones just because you're on a high protein
    > diet. If it were otherwise then weightlifters, who as a group have lived on
    > high protein diets for decades, should report statistically significantly
    > higher rates of kidney stones.
    >
    > > Or am I to presume that
    > > "DRS" means "doctors" and, hence you possess the knowledge of many
    > > physicians.

    >
    > Just stop top-posting.
     
  16. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message


    [...]

    >> The question is, since you made the original claim, can you back it
    >> up? Sheer number of hits on Google is evidence of nothing in
    >> particular. The net is a great way to propagate urban myths, like
    >> that protein causes kidney problems. You clearly don't know how to
    >> evaluate the quality of the material Google dredged up. Unhappily
    >> for you scaremongers it's trash.

    >
    > Yeah, and my original claim was that you needed to flush your kidneys
    > if you went to a high protein diet. I suggested beer, because it is a
    > good way to keep flushing them, and also to be humorous. My originaly
    > claim wasn't about osteoporosis.


    What you actually said: "Also, Atkins will destroy your kidneys unless you
    drink a lot of beer." That statement is bullshit.

    > You called my statement utter bs but never bothered to explain why,


    I'm tired of constantly explaining why.

    > when in fact, high protein diets may be tough in your kidney unless
    > you hydrate properly. Moreover, high protein diets, according to what
    > you site, may pose risk of osteoporosis under certain circumstances.
    > Your two references recommend high protein diets for the elderly
    > supplemented with other stuff (is tis the best you can do?). While, we
    > can extrapolate from your citations that you may apply this to other
    > groups, scientifically, this is a no, no. this is ironic since you are
    > trying to sound all mighty and ridicule my use of the internet while
    > posting references from a nutrition journal, and then you generalize
    > from two articles talking abouth the elderly under certain
    > constraints.


    Er, no. I did nothing of the sort. I gave a couple of examples to support
    my general contention, which is exactly the opposite to what you just said I
    did. I had no intention of posting a comprehensive list of the literature.
    The elderly are at particular risk of osteoporosis. If high protein diets
    were implicated in that disease it should show up in that population. It
    doesn't. Ditto for post-menopausal women (The Journal of Nutrition, 133(4),
    2003:1020-1026 "Controlled High Meat Diets Do not Affect Calcium Retention
    or Indices of Bone Status in Healthy Postmenopausal Women," Roughead, Z.,
    Johnson, L., Lykken, G., et al.). If you want to refer to the general
    population try American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37(6), 1983:924-929,
    "Further Studies of the Effect of a High Protein Diet as Meat on Calcium
    Metabolism," Spencer, H., Kramer, L., DeBartolo, M., et al. Etc., etc.,
    etc.

    > Essentially, what you are claiming is that high protein in combination
    > with low hydration is tough on your kidneys. High protein with low
    > calcium intake may decrease bone density. interestingly, low calcium
    > intake and poor hydration are common habits. So, there are risks in a
    > high protein diet, unless you supplement them accordingly.


    Poor hydration is not common in Western societies. We are a ridiculously
    over-hydrated society. However, since the "eight eight ounce glasses of
    water per day" urban myth does no harm doctors ignore it. That leaves low
    calcium intake as a potential problem, but one that is easily remedied and
    is not specifically related to high protein diets.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  17. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > [...]
    >
    >
    > What you actually said: "Also, Atkins will destroy your kidneys unless you
    > drink a lot of beer." That statement is bullshit.


    You are absolutely right, what I should have said is that atkins can
    be harmful to your kidneys unless you hydrate properly to flush them
    regularly. this may have been less drastic and more to your taste.
    >

    "Controlled High Meat Diets Do not Affect Calcium Retention
    > or Indices of Bone Status in Healthy Postmenopausal Women," Roughead, Z.,
    > Johnson, L., Lykken, G., et al.). If you want to refer to the general
    > population try American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37(6), 1983:924-929,
    > "Further Studies of the Effect of a High Protein Diet as Meat on Calcium
    > Metabolism," Spencer, H., Kramer, L., DeBartolo, M., et al. Etc., etc.,
    > etc.


    Do you really have difficulty reading or you are just arguing with me
    for the hell of it. You cited two earlier studies with titles
    suggesting that high protein diets were not harmful under certain
    circumstances. Which would imply that they may be harmful under other
    circumstances. When I tell you about this generalization, you deny
    making generalizations, and you refer me to another article with the
    title above. Now, the question is: if controlled meat diets are not
    harmful, how about uncontrolled meat diets?

    Then, you refer me to another article with a no so revealing title,
    that I will not read, but why don't you tell us what it says since you
    already read it. I will guess that it says that high protein diets are
    not harmful if you do certain things. It'll probably suggest high
    calcium intake, high fiber intake and proper hydration to keep your
    kidneys clean. The idea is that you do certain things when you go on
    a diets otherwise they can be harmful. Again, I am speculating, but I
    am sure that you will share your insights, hopefully without
    contradicting the title of the article. So far that is what you have
    been doing. You keep refering me to articles with titles that
    contradict your generalizations. You either seem to not be able to
    read what you refer to like GW, or you do, but find it ambiguous and
    cannot make up your mind like Kerry.

    Andres
     
  18. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >


    >
    > What you actually said: "Also, Atkins will destroy your kidneys unless you
    > drink a lot of beer." That statement is bullshit.


    Lets see if this is any help:

    Diets that are heavy on protein-rich foods and
    skimp on carbohydrates can increase the risk of kidney stones and reduce the
    body's ability to absorb calcium after just 6 weeks, researchers report.

    Their findings come at a time when an increasing number of Americans,
    seduced by anecdotal accounts of fast weight loss, are turning to
    low-carbohydrate, high-protein (LCHP) diets. With an estimated 50% of
    American adults either overweight or obese, many are looking for a surefire
    way to shed pounds.

    But while LCHP diets have been shown to get the pounds off in the near term,
    these diets are less successful over the long run and may even be hazardous
    to health, researchers warn.

    For one, protein-rich foods can be high in fat, which increases the risk of
    heart disease and type 2 diabetes. A dearth of carbohydrate-rich foods such
    as fruits and vegetables can leave the body hungry for essential vitamins
    and minerals, while insufficient glucose (sugar) from carbohydrates, the
    body's preferred fuel source, can lead to fatigue and dizziness.

    And according to the new study, 6 weeks on an LCHP diet increased the acid
    load to the kidneys, raising the risk of kidney stones. Animal protein has
    been shown to boost urinary excretion of oxalate, a compound that combines
    with calcium and other compounds to form the deposits commonly known as
    kidney stones.

    At the same time, adults in the study had higher levels of calcium in their
    urine, suggesting a decreased absorption of the bone-building mineral and an
    increased risk of osteoporosis, according to the report in the August issue
    of the American Journal of Kidney Diseases.

    "Consumption of an LCHP diet for 6 weeks delivers a marked acid load to the
    kidney, increases the risk for stone formation, decreases estimated calcium
    balance, and may increase the risk for bone loss," write Dr. Shalini T.
    Reddy from the University of Chicago, Illinois, and colleagues.

    Their study included 10 healthy adults aged 21 to 52 who consumed their
    usual diet for 2 weeks, followed an LCHP diet for 2 weeks, and then followed
    a diet that restricted carbohydrates only moderately for 4 weeks. The
    protein-restricted diets included 3 liters of fluid a day.

    Study volunteers lost an average of 9 pounds, but most developed
    ketones--compounds that are formed when the body uses its own fat as fuel
    and can raise acid levels in the blood. Acid excretion, a marker of acid
    levels in the blood, rose by 90% in some volunteers but none of the dieters
    developed metabolic acidosis, a potentially life-threatening condition
    caused by excessive breakdown of fats, the report notes.

    There was also a sharp rise in urinary calcium levels during the LCHP and
    maintenance diets despite only a slight decrease in calcium intake. Urinary
    citrate, a compound that inhibits kidney stone formation, decreased.

    While it is not clear from the study whether bone mass was affected, the
    findings indicate that such diets may increase the risk of bone loss over
    the long term.

    "We already know that osteoporosis is going to be a major issue as the
    population ages, and if people are going to eat this kind of diet on a
    long-term basis, it's unknown what the implications would be for your
    bones," Dr. Chia-Ying Wang, a study author, said in a prepared statement.

    SOURCE: American Journal of Kidney Diseases 2002;40:265-274.
     
  19. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > [...]
    >
    > >> The question is, since you made the original claim, can you back it
    > >> up?


    Let me try:

    The Protein Myth

    The Building Blocks of Life

    Protein is an important nutrient required for the building,
    maintenance, and repair of tissues in the body. Amino acids, the
    building blocks of protein, can be synthesized by the body or ingested
    from food. There are 20 different amino acids in the food we eat, but
    our body can only make 11 of them. The 9 essential amino acids which
    cannot be produced by the body must be obtained from the diet. A
    variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables can also provide all of the
    essential amino acids our bodies require. It was once thought that
    various plant foods had to be eaten together to get their full protein
    value, otherwise known as protein combining or protein complementing.
    Intentional combining is not necessary to obtain all of the essential
    amino acids.1 As long as the diet contains a variety of grains,
    legumes, and vegetables, protein needs are easily met.

    Protein Requirements

    With the traditional Western diet, the average American consumes about
    double the protein her or his body needs. Additionally, the main
    sources of protein consumed tend to be animal products which are also
    high in fat and saturated fat. Most individuals are surprised to learn
    that protein needs are actually much less than what they have been
    consuming. The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein for the
    average, sedentary adult is only 0.8 grams per kilogram of body
    weight.2 To find out your average individual need, simply perform the
    following calculation:

    * Body weight (in pounds) X 0.36 = recommended protein intake

    However, even this value has a large margin of safety, and the body's
    true need is even lower. Protein needs are increased for women who are
    pregnant or breastfeeding. In addition, needs are also higher for
    active persons. As these groups require additional calories, increased
    protein needs can easily be met through larger intake of food consumed
    daily. Extra serving of legumes, tofu, meat substitutes, or other high
    protein sources can help meet needs that go beyond the current RDA.

    The Problems with High-Protein Diets

    High protein diets for weight loss, disease prevention, and enhanced
    athletic performance have been greatly publicized over recent years.
    However, these diets are supported by little scientific research.
    Studies show that the healthiest diet is one that is
    high-carbohydrate, low-fat, and moderate in protein. Increased intake
    of whole grains, fruits, and vegetables are recommended for weight
    control3 and preventing diseases such as cancer4 and heart disease.5
    High-carbohydrate, low-fat, moderate-protein diets are also
    recommended for optimal athletic performance.6 Contrary to the fad
    diets currently promoted by some popular books, a diet that is high in
    protein can actually contribute to disease and other health problems.

    Osteoporosis. Diets that are rich in protein, especially animal
    protein,7 are known to cause people to excrete more calcium than
    normal through their urine and increase the risk of osteoporosis.
    Plant-based diets, which provide adequate protein in addition to
    calcium through the consumption of leafy green vegetables, beans, and
    fortified fruit juices, can help protect against osteoporosis.

    Cancer. Although fat is the dietary substance most often singled out
    for increasing one's risk for cancer, animal protein also plays a
    role. Specifically, certain proteins present in meat, fish, and
    poultry, cooked at high temperatures, especially grilling and frying,
    have been found to produce compounds called heterocyclic amines. These
    substances have been linked to various cancers including those of the
    colon and breast.8-10 A diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and
    vegetables is important in decreasing cancer risk,4 not to mention
    adding more healthful sources of protein in the diet.

    Kidney Disease. When people eat too much protein, it releases nitrogen
    into the blood or is digested and metabolized. This places a strain on
    the kidneys which must expel the waste through the urine. Kidney
    problems may result in individuals who are susceptible to disease.

    Cardiovascular Disease. Diets high in fat and saturated fat can
    increase one's risk of heart disease. High-protein diets often
    encourage consumption of meat, eggs, and dairy products, which are all
    high in cholesterol, fat, and saturated fat. The most popular of the
    high-protein diets have been described as containing excessive amounts
    of these artery-clogging products.11 Adequate protein can be consumed
    through a variety of plant products which are cholesterol-free and
    contain only small amounts of fat.

    Weight Loss Sabotage. Many individuals see almost immediate weight
    loss as a result of following a high-protein diet. In fact, the weight
    loss is not a result of consuming more protein, but by simply
    consuming less calories. Over the long run, consumption of this type
    of diet is not practical as it can result in the aforementioned health
    problems. As with any temporary diet, weight gain is often seen when
    previous eating habits are resumed. To achieve permanent weight loss
    while promoting optimal health, the best strategy involves lifestyle
    changes including a low-fat diet of grains, legumes, fruits, and
    vegetables combined with regular physical activity.

    Protein Checklist

    High protein diets are unhealthy. However, adequate but not excess
    amounts of protein to maintain body tissues, including muscle, are
    still important and can be easily achieved on a vegetarian diet. If
    you are uncertain about the adequacy of protein in your diet, take
    inventory. Although all protein needs are individual, the following
    guidelines can help you to meet, but not exceed, your needs.

    * Aim for 5 or more servings of grains each day. This may include
    1/2 cup of hot cereal, 1 oz. of dry cereal, or 1 slice of bread. Each
    serving contains roughly 3 grams of protein.
    * Aim for 3 or more servings of vegetables each day. This may
    include 1 cup of raw vegetables, 1/2 cup of cooked vegetables, or 1/2
    cup of vegetable juice. Each serving contains about 2 grams of
    protein.
    * Aim for 2 to 3 servings of legumes each day. This may include
    1/2 cup of cooked beans, 4 oz. of tofu or tempeh, 8 oz. of soymilk,
    and 1 oz. of nuts. Protein content can vary significantly,
    particularly with soy and rice milks, so be sure to check labels. Each
    serving may contain about 4 grams to 10 grams of protein. Meat
    analogues and substitutes are also great sources of protein that can
    be added to your daily diet.

    References
    1. Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets. J
    Amer Diet Assoc 1997;97(11):1317-21.
    2. Munoz de Chavez M, Chavez A. Diet that prevents cancer:
    recommendations from the American Institute for Cancer Research. Int J
    Cancer Suppl 1998;11:85-9.
    3. Position of the American Dietetic Association: weight management. J
    Amer Diet Assoc 1995;95:809.
    4. World Cancer Research Fund. Food, Nutrition and the Prevention of
    Cancer: A Global Perspective. American Institute for Cancer Research.
    Washington, D.C.: 1997.
    5. Ornish D, Brown SE, Scherwitz LW. Can lifestyle changes reverse
    coronary heart disease? Lancet 1990;336:129-33.
    6. Position of the American Dietetic Association: nutrition for
    physical fitness and athletic performance for adults. J Amer Diet
    Assoc 1993;93:691.
    7. Zemel MB. Calcium utilization: effect of varying level and source
    of dietary protein. Am J Clin Nutr 1988;48:880-3.
    8. Potter JD. Nutrition and colorectal cancer. Cancer Causes Control
    1996;7(1):127-46.
    9. Giovannucci E, Goldin B. The role of fat, fatty acids, and total
    energy intake in the etiology of human colon cancer. Am J Clin Nutr
    1997;66(6suppl):1564S-71S.
    10. De Stefami E, Ronco A, Mendilaharsu M, et al. Meat intake,
    heterocyclic amines, and risk of breast cancer: a case-control study
    in Uruguay. Cancer Epidem Biomark Prev 1997;6:573-81.
    11. Titchenal CA, Dobbs JC, Hetzler RK. Macronutrient composition of
    The Zone diet based on computer analysis. Med Sci Sport Exer
    1997;29(5):S126.

    07/12/99
     
  20. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > [...]
    >
    > >> The question is, since you made the original claim, can you back it
    > >> up?


    Here is some more. Will this suffice or shall I keep going?

    Low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets increase risk of kidney stones
    and may raise bone-loss risk


    August 1, 2002

    "Popular low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets may result in rapid
    weight loss, but they also appear to pose serious health problems,
    including increased risk of kidney stones and bone loss," report
    researchers from the University of Chicago and the University of Texas
    Southwestern in the August issue of the American Journal of Kidney
    Diseases.

    "High protein, low carbohydrate diets clearly produced changes that
    substantially increase the risk of kidney stone formation if continued
    over time. Our study was too brief to show diet induced osteoporosis,
    but our data suggests this may be another potential risk," said
    Shalini Reddy, M.D., assistant professor of medicine at the University
    of Chicago and lead author of the study.

    In this study, 10 healthy subjects ate a regular diet for two weeks.
    They followed that with two weeks on a highly restrictive diet that
    included some vegetables but no fruits and fewer than 20 grams of
    carbohydrates. Participants then ate a slightly less-restrictive diet
    for the final four weeks.

    A diet heavy on animal proteins and light on carbohydrates does
    increase fat metabolism--which can increase the amount of acid in the
    blood. The researchers found that acid excretion--a marker for the
    acid load in the blood--increased as much as 90 percent while subjects
    were on diets that severely restricted carbohydrates. They also found
    that calcium absorption was unchanged but calcium excretion increased.

    The diet produced changes in urine chemistry--higher levels of uric
    acid and calcium--that enhance the propensity to form stones. The
    increased acid load in the blood may also suppress the function of
    cells that make new bone and stimulate the cells that break down bone,
    suggesting that much of the calcium being excreted was leached from
    bone.

    "This short-term metabolic study stresses that a low-carbohydrate high
    protein diet may enhance the risk for stone formation and bone loss,"
    conclude the authors. Patients who pursue weight loss, they suggest,
    "should be made aware of a potential increase in risk for kidney stone
    formation and and unknown long-term risk to bone health." The study
    was funded in part by the United States Public Health Service.

    The University of Chicago Medical Center
    Office of Public Affairs
    5841 S. Maryland Avenue, MC6063
    Chicago, IL 60637
    Phone (773) 702-6241 Fax (773) 702-3171
     
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