Gels vs Gatorade

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by scottt, Jul 19, 2004.

  1. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    [...]

    > Let me try:
    >
    > The Protein Myth
    >
    > The Building Blocks of Life
    >
    > Protein is an important nutrient required for the building,
    > maintenance, and repair of tissues in the body. Amino acids, the
    > building blocks of protein, can be synthesized by the body or ingested
    > from food. There are 20 different amino acids in the food we eat, but
    > our body can only make 11 of them. The 9 essential amino acids which
    > cannot be produced by the body must be obtained from the diet. A
    > variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables can also provide all of the
    > essential amino acids our bodies require. It was once thought that
    > various plant foods had to be eaten together to get their full protein
    > value, otherwise known as protein combining or protein complementing.
    > Intentional combining is not necessary to obtain all of the essential
    > amino acids.1 As long as the diet contains a variety of grains,
    > legumes, and vegetables, protein needs are easily met.


    Citing an article promoting *vegetarianism* no less! It is to laugh. I
    don't suppose your article acknowledges that your body doesn't digest as
    much of the low quality vegetable protein as it does high quality meat
    proteins? I thought not.

    > Protein Requirements
    >
    > With the traditional Western diet, the average American consumes about
    > double the protein her or his body needs. Additionally, the main
    > sources of protein consumed tend to be animal products which are also
    > high in fat and saturated fat. Most individuals are surprised to learn
    > that protein needs are actually much less than what they have been
    > consuming. The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein for the
    > average, sedentary adult is only 0.8 grams per kilogram of body
    > weight.2 To find out your average individual need, simply perform the
    > following calculation:


    The key word there is "sedentary". The RDA is pathetically inadequate for
    active people. That includes cyclists. Let me cite here one of the top
    researchers in the field:

    "...These data suggest that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance
    exercise should be about 1.2-1.4 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass
    (150%-175% of the current RDA) and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein/kilogram of
    body mass per day (212%-225% of the current RDA) for strength exercisers."

    Lemon, PW, "Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for
    individuals with a physically active life style?" Nutr. Rev. 54:S169-175,
    1996.

    > * Body weight (in pounds) X 0.36 = recommended protein intake
    >
    > However, even this value has a large margin of safety, and the body's
    > true need is even lower. Protein needs are increased for women who are
    > pregnant or breastfeeding. In addition, needs are also higher for
    > active persons. As these groups require additional calories, increased
    > protein needs can easily be met through larger intake of food consumed
    > daily. Extra serving of legumes, tofu, meat substitutes, or other high
    > protein sources can help meet needs that go beyond the current RDA.


    Ever seen a vegetarian bodybuilder? No? I wonder why.

    > The Problems with High-Protein Diets
    >
    > High protein diets for weight loss, disease prevention, and enhanced
    > athletic performance have been greatly publicized over recent years.
    > However, these diets are supported by little scientific research.


    Utter bullshit. Here's some comparative diet studies:

    Abbasi, F., McLaughlin, T., Lamendola, C., et al., "High Carbohydrate Diets,
    Triglyceride-Rich Lipoproteins, and Coronary Heart Disease Risk," The
    American Journal of Cardiology, 85, 2000, pages 45-48.

    Ball, S.D., Keller, K.R., Moyer-Mileur, L.J., et al., "Prolongation of
    Satiety After Low Versus Moderately High Glycemic Index Meals in Obese
    Adolescents," Pediatrics, 111(3), 2003, pages 488-494.

    Bravata, D.M., Sanders, L., Huang, J., et al., "Efficacy and Safety of
    Low-Carbohydrate Diets: A Systematic Review," The Journal of the American
    Medical Association, 289(14), 2003, pages 1837-1850.

    Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D'Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low
    Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College
    of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.
    This Information was presented at the 2002 Annual Meeting of the American
    Dietetic Association and the 2001 Annual Meeting of the North American
    Association for the Study of Obesity. The results have not yet been
    published.

    Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., Daniels, S.R., et al., "A Randomized Trial
    Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet
    on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women," The
    Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 88(4), 2003, pages
    1617-1623.

    Brown, R.C., Cox, C.M., "Effects of High Fat Versus High Carbohydrate Diets
    on Plasma Lipids and Lipoproteins in Endurance Athletes," Medicine and
    Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(12), 1998, pages 1677-1683.

    Campbell, L.V., Marmot, P.E., Dyer, J.A., et al., "The High-Monounsaturated
    Fat Diet as a Practical Alternative for NIDDM," Diabetes Care, 17(3), 1994,
    pages 177-182.

    Coulston, A.M, Liu, G.C., Reaven, G.M., "Plasma Glucose, Insulin and Lipid
    Responses to High-Carbohydrate Low-Fat Diets in Normal Humans," Metabolism,
    32(1), 1983, pages 52-56.

    Dawson-Hughes, B., Harris, S.S., Rasmussen, H., et al., "Effect of Dietary
    Protein Supplements on Calcium Excretion in Healthy Older Men and Women",
    Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 89(3), 2004, pages
    1169-1173.

    Dreon, D.M., Fenstrom, H.A., Campos, H., et al., "Change in Dietary
    Saturated Fat Intake Is Correlated With Change in Mass of Large
    Low-Density-Lipoprotein Particles in Men," American Journal of Clinical
    Nutrition, 67, 1998, pages 828-836.

    Dreon, D.M., Fernstrom, H.A., Miller, B., et al., "Low-Density Lipoprotein
    Subclass Patterns and Lipoprotein Response to a Reduced-Fat Diet in Men,"
    The FASEB Journal, 8(1), 1994, pages 121-126.

    Dreon, D.M., Fernstrom, H.A., Williams, P.T., et al., "A Very-Low-Fat Diet
    Is not Associated With Improved Lipoprotein Profiles in Men With a
    Predominance of Large, Low-Density Lipoproteins," American Journal of
    Clinical Nutrition, 69, 1999, pages 411-418.

    Dreon, D.M., Frey-Hewitt, B., Ellsworth, N., et al., "Dietary Fat:
    Carbohydrate Ratio and Obesity in Middle-Aged Men," American Journal of
    Clinical Nutrition, 47, 1988, pages 995-1000.

    Facchini, F.S., Saylor, K.L., "A Low-Iron-Available, Polyphenol-Enriched,
    Carbohydrate-Restricted Diet to Slow Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy,"
    Diabetes, 52(5), 2003, pages 1204-1209.

    Fagan, T.C., Oexmann, M.J., "Effects of High Protein, High Carbohydrate, and
    High Fat Diets on Laboratory Parameters," Journal of the American College of
    Nutrition, 6(4), 1987, pages 333-343.

    Farnsworth, E., Luscombe, N.D., Noakes, M., et al., "Effect of a
    High-Protein, Energy-Restricted Diet on Body Composition, Glycemic Control,
    and Lipid Concentrations in Overweight and Obese Hyperinsulinemic Men and
    Women," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 78(1), 2003, pages 31-39.

    Foster, G.D., Wyatt, H.R., Hill, J.O., et al., "A Randomized Trial of a
    Low-Carbohydrate Diet for Obesity," The New England Journal of Medicine,
    348(21), 2003, pages 2082-2090.

    Fujita, Y., Gotto, A.M., Phil, D., et al., "Basal and Postprotein Insulin
    and Glucagon Levels During a High and Low Carbohydrate Intake and Their
    Relationships to Plasma Triglycerides," Diabetes, 24(6), 1975, pages
    552-558.

    Garg, A., "High-Monounsaturated-Fat Diets for Patients With Diabetes
    Mellitus: A Meta-Analysis," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition,
    67(Suppl), 1998, pages 577S-582S.

    Garg, A., Bantle, J.P., Henry, R.R., "Effects of Varying Carbohydrate
    Content of Diet in Patients With Non-Insulin-Dependent Diabetes Mellitus,"
    Journal of the American Medical Association, 271(18), 1994, pages 1421-1428.

    Garg, A., Grundy, S.M., Unger, R.H., "Comparison of Effects of High and Low
    Carbohydrate Diets on Plasma Lipoproteins and Insulin Sensitivity in
    Patients With Mild NIDDM," Diabetes, 41(10), 1992, pages 1278-1285.

    Greene, P., Willett, W., Devecis, J., et al., "Pilot 12-Week Feeding
    Weight-Loss Comparison: Low-Fat vs Low-Carbohydrate (Ketogenic) Diets,"
    Abstract Presented at The North American Association for the Study of
    Obesity Annual Meeting 2003, Obesity Research, 11S, 2003, page 95OR.
    Greene, P.J., Devecis, J., Willett, W.C., "Effects of Low-Fat Vs
    Ultra-Low-Carbohydrate Weight-Loss Diets: A 12-Week Pilot Feeding Study,"
    abstract presented at Nutrition Week 2004, February 9-12, 2004, in Las
    Vegas, Nevada.

    Heilbronn, L.K., Noakes, M., Clifton, P.M., "Effect of Energy Restriction,
    Weight Loss, and Diet Composition on Plasma Lipids and Glucose in Patients
    With Type 2 Diabetes," Diabetes Care, 22(6), 1999, pages 889-895.

    Hu, F.B., Stampfer, M.J., Manson, J.E., et al., "Dietary Protein and Risk of
    Ischemic Heart Disease in Women," The American Journal of Clinical
    Nutrition, 70, 1999, pages 221-227.

    Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., "Response of Body Weight to a Low
    Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in Normal and Obese Subjects," The American
    Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.

    Kerstetter, J.E., O'Brien, K.O., Insogna, K.L., "Dietary Protein Affects
    Intestinal Calcium Absorption," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition,
    68(4), 1998, pages 859-865.

    Kerstetter, J.E., O'Brien, K.O., Insogna, K.L., "Low Protein Intake: the
    Impact on Calcium and Bone Homeostasis in Humans," The Journal of Nutrition,
    133(3), 2003, pages 855S-861S.

    Krauss, R.M., Dreon, D.M., "Low-Density-Lipoprotein Subclasses and Response
    to a Low-Fat Diet in Healthy Men," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition,
    62, 1995, pages 478S-487S.

    Langfort, J., Zarzeczny, R., Pilis, W., et al., "The Effect of a
    Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Performance, Hormonal and Metabolic Responses to a
    30-s Bout of Supramaximal Exercise," European Journal of Applied Physiology,
    76(2), 1997, pages 128-133.

    Layman, D.K., "The Role of Leucine in Weight Loss Diets and Glucose
    Homeostasis," The Journal of Nutrition, 133(1), 2003, pages 261S-267S.

    Layman, D.K., Shiue, H., Sather, C., et al., "Increased Dietary Protein
    Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in Adult Women During Weight Loss,"
    The Journal of Nutrition, 133(2),2003, pages 405-410.

    Lean, M.E.J., Han, T.S., Prvan, T., et al., "Weight Loss With High and Low
    Carbohydrate 1200 Kcal Diets in Free Living Women," European Journal of
    Clinical Nutrition, 51(4), 1997, pages 243-248.

    Leddy, J., Hovarth, P., Rowland, J., et al., "Effect of a High or a Low Fat
    Diet on Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Male and Female Runners," Medical
    Science and Sports Exercise, 29(1), 1997, pages 17-25.

    Marques-Lopes, I., Ansorena, D., Astiasaran, I., et al., "Postprandial de
    Novo Lipogenesis and Metabolic Changes Induced by a High-Carbohydrate,
    Low-Fat Meal in Lean and Overweight Men," American Journal of Clinical
    Nutrition, 73(2), 2001, pages 253-261.

    McLaughlin, T., Abbasi, F., Lamendola, C., et al., "Carbohydrate-Induced
    Hypertriglyceridemia: An Insight Into the Link Between Plasma Insulin and
    Triglyceride Concentrations," Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and
    Metabolism, 85(9), 2000, pages 3085-3088.

    Meckling, K.A., Gauthier, M., Grubb, R., et al., "Effects of a Hypocaloric,
    Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Weight Loss, Blood Lipids, Blood Pressure, Glucose
    Tolerance, and Body Composition in Free-Living Overweight Women," Canadian
    Journal of Physiology and Pharmacology, 80(11), 2002, pages 1095-1105.

    Meckling, K.A., O'Sullivan, C., Saari, D., "Comparison of a low-fat diet to
    a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss, body composition, and risk factors
    for diabetes and cardiovascular disease in free-living, overweight men and
    women", Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 89(6), 2004,
    pages:2717-2723.

    Moran, L.J., Noakes, M., Clifton, P.M., et al., "Dietary Composition in
    Restoring Reproductive and Metabolic Physiology in Overweight Women with
    Polycystic Ovary Syndrome", Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and
    Metabolism, 88(2), 2003, pages 812-819.

    Muoio, D.M., Leddy, J.J., Hovarth, P.J., et al., "Effect of Dietary Fat on
    Metabolic Adjustments to Maximal VO2 and Endurance in Runners," Medical
    Science and Sports Exercise, 26(1), 1994, pages 81-88.

    O'Brien, K.D., Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., "Greater Reduction in Inflammatory
    Markers With a Low Carbohydrate Diet than with a Calorically Matched Low Fat
    Diet," Presented at American Heart Association's Scientific Sessions 2002 on
    Tuesday, November 19, 2002, Abstract ID: 117597.

    Parker, B., Noakes, M., Luscombe, N., et al., "Effect of a High-Protein,
    High-Monounsaturated Fat Weight Loss Diet on Glycemic Control and Lipid
    Levels in Type 2 Diabetes", Diabetes Care, 25(3), 2002, pages 425-430.

    Pasman, W.J., Blokdijk, V.M., Bertina, F.M., et al., "Effect of Two
    Breakfasts, Different in Carbohydrate Composition, on Hunger and Satiety and
    Mood in Healthy Men," International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic
    Disorders, 27(6), 2003, pages 663-668.

    Rabast, U., Kasper, H., Schonborn, J., "Comparative Studies in Obese
    Subjects Fed Carbohydrate-Restricted and High-Carbohydrate 1,000 Calorie
    Formula Diets," Nutritional Metabolsim, 22, 1978, pages 269-277.

    Rabast, U., Schönborn, J., Kasper, H., "Dietetic Treatment of Obesity With
    Low and High-Carbohydrate Diets: Comparative Studies and Clinical Results,"
    International Journal of Obesity, 3(3), 1979, pages 201-211.

    Reissell, P.K., Mandella, P.A., Poon-King, T.M.W., et al., "Treatment of
    Hypertriglyceridemia," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 19, 1966,
    pages 84-98.

    Rumpler, W.V., Seale, J.L., Miles, C.W., et al., "Energy-Intake Restriction
     


  2. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >


    Ok, let see if we can slow it downa little.

    I say that stkins may be harmful to kidneys unless you take specail
    pracautions

    you say, "utter BS"

    I post sopies of thre articles that support this. One is from the
    Journal of Kidney disease, the other from Physicians for social
    responsibility and the other from the university of chicago medical
    center. I think that this are farily credible sources.

    You say, "utter BS" and post 258,987,912 references to journal
    articles which, since I don't have with me, I have not idea what they
    say. However, I could probably find a large amount of references to
    credible sources that say the opposite. So, do any of this articles
    have abstracts? They did when I studied biology in college. So, could
    you post one sinlge abstract that says that atkins or high protein
    diets are not tough on your kidneys? Is there a single article or
    summary of one in the entire virtual world that says that atkins, or
    HP diets are not tough on your kidneys? Do you think that the anti
    atkins diet literature has been paid for by powerful fruit, wheat,
    rice, and potato corporations?


    Andres
     
  3. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >> "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]

    >
    > Ok, let see if we can slow it downa little.
    >
    > I say that stkins may be harmful to kidneys unless you take specail
    > pracautions


    That's not what you said.

    > you say, "utter BS"
    >
    > I post sopies of thre articles that support this. One is from the
    > Journal of Kidney disease, the other from Physicians for social
    > responsibility


    Don't you mean "Physicians for moronic justification of vegetarian diets"?

    > and the other from the university of chicago medical
    > center. I think that this are farily credible sources.
    >
    > You say, "utter BS" and post 258,987,912 references to journal
    > articles which, since I don't have with me, I have not idea what they
    > say.


    You posted an article perpetuating the myth that high protein diets have not
    been extensively studied. I gave you a partial list of the many, many
    studies which directly or indirectly relate to high protein diets. There's
    more if you want them.

    > However, I could probably find a large amount of references to
    > credible sources that say the opposite. So, do any of this articles
    > have abstracts?


    All of them. Every single one is in PubMed:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

    > They did when I studied biology in college. So, could
    > you post one sinlge abstract that says that atkins or high protein
    > diets are not tough on your kidneys? Is there a single article or
    > summary of one in the entire virtual world that says that atkins, or
    > HP diets are not tough on your kidneys?


    "The researchers concluded that, in contrast with the important therapeutic
    effect of low-protein intake on the progressive deterioration of kidney
    function in diseased kidneys, such a [unrestricted protein] diet does not
    significantly affect kidney function with "norm aging" in healthy subjects."

    Blum, M., Averbuch, M., Wolman, Y., et al., "Protein Intake and Kidney
    Function in Humans: Its Effect on 'Normal Aging'," Archives of Internal
    Medicine, 149(1), 1989, pages 211-212.

    IOW, high protein is not harmful to the kidneys of otherwise healthy adults
    but people with existing kidney conditions should not start high protein
    diets. This is not news except to all you ostriches.

    > Do you think that the anti
    > atkins diet literature has been paid for by powerful fruit, wheat,
    > rice, and potato corporations?


    A lot of the time, yes. The worst case is the grossly misnamed "Physicians
    Committee for Responsible Medicine", which is in fact a front for a radical
    vegan and animal-rights group.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  4. andres muro

    andres muro Guest

    To begin with, I ain't a vegetarian. In fact, I love beef. I am from
    Argentina, and we eat a lot of it. However, that does not mean that I
    am going to start to promote Atkins. However, I'll tell you something.
    You win. You are right, Atkins is good for you. So, all of you
    cyclists, eat Atkins or, follow a body builder's diet. Physiscians for
    responible medicine, vegetarians and vegans, are wimps and they are
    bad. in fact, they are all commies. meat eaters are good, ugh, ugh!!
    Saying that Atkins may be rough on your kidneys is wrong ugh! me muy
    macho, me eat beef, ugh, ugh. Attached are the 250,000 articles that
    support what I am saying ugh, ugh! Quantity makes might and makes
    truth ugh ugh! anyone against atkins is an anti american, vegan loving
    commie ugh, ugh.

    where is the beef!

    Andres






    "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "DRS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> "andres muro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]

    > >
    > > Ok, let see if we can slow it downa little.
    > >
    > > I say that stkins may be harmful to kidneys unless you take specail
    > > pracautions

    >
    > That's not what you said.
    >
    > > you say, "utter BS"
    > >
    > > I post sopies of thre articles that support this. One is from the
    > > Journal of Kidney disease, the other from Physicians for social
    > > responsibility

    >
    > Don't you mean "Physicians for moronic justification of vegetarian diets"?
    >
    > > and the other from the university of chicago medical
    > > center. I think that this are farily credible sources.
    > >
    > > You say, "utter BS" and post 258,987,912 references to journal
    > > articles which, since I don't have with me, I have not idea what they
    > > say.

    >
    > You posted an article perpetuating the myth that high protein diets have not
    > been extensively studied. I gave you a partial list of the many, many
    > studies which directly or indirectly relate to high protein diets. There's
    > more if you want them.
    >
    > > However, I could probably find a large amount of references to
    > > credible sources that say the opposite. So, do any of this articles
    > > have abstracts?

    >
    > All of them. Every single one is in PubMed:
    > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
    >
    > > They did when I studied biology in college. So, could
    > > you post one sinlge abstract that says that atkins or high protein
    > > diets are not tough on your kidneys? Is there a single article or
    > > summary of one in the entire virtual world that says that atkins, or
    > > HP diets are not tough on your kidneys?

    >
    > "The researchers concluded that, in contrast with the important therapeutic
    > effect of low-protein intake on the progressive deterioration of kidney
    > function in diseased kidneys, such a [unrestricted protein] diet does not
    > significantly affect kidney function with "norm aging" in healthy subjects."
    >
    > Blum, M., Averbuch, M., Wolman, Y., et al., "Protein Intake and Kidney
    > Function in Humans: Its Effect on 'Normal Aging'," Archives of Internal
    > Medicine, 149(1), 1989, pages 211-212.
    >
    > IOW, high protein is not harmful to the kidneys of otherwise healthy adults
    > but people with existing kidney conditions should not start high protein
    > diets. This is not news except to all you ostriches.
    >
    > > Do you think that the anti
    > > atkins diet literature has been paid for by powerful fruit, wheat,
    > > rice, and potato corporations?

    >
    > A lot of the time, yes. The worst case is the grossly misnamed "Physicians
    > Committee for Responsible Medicine", which is in fact a front for a radical
    > vegan and animal-rights group.
     
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