Gen Wes Clark's Adaptive Motor bicycle

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Garyaiki, Sep 11, 2003.

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  1. Garyaiki

    Garyaiki Guest

    Today's New York Times has an article about General Wes Clark promoting bicycle warfare.
    http://www.nytimes.com/pages/technology/index.html (registration required)

    He's Chairman of the board of WaveCrestLabs who make electronic motors that dynamicaly optimize
    performance at any rpm or load http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/technology/overview.html. The bicycle is
    a way to bootstrap the company into larger motors for hybrid cars.

    It seems to be microprocessor controlled electromagnets like a particle accelerator. I'm a bit
    surprised electromagnets could be much more efficient than permanent magnets.
     
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  2. N2vx Jim

    N2vx Jim Guest

    On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:28:36 GMT, "garyaiki" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Today's New York Times has an article about General Wes Clark promoting bicycle warfare.
    >http://www.nytimes.com/pages/technology/index.html (registration required)
    >
    >He's Chairman of the board of WaveCrestLabs who make electronic motors that dynamicaly optimize
    >performance at any rpm or load http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/technology/overview.html. The bicycle
    >is a way to bootstrap the company into larger motors for hybrid cars.
    >
    >It seems to be microprocessor controlled electromagnets like a particle accelerator. I'm a bit
    >surprised electromagnets could be much more efficient than permanent magnets.

    Looks like one more expensive and heavy thing to break down. Anybody want to bet how many
    billions he will scam from the taxpayers? And then what do you do with a 60+ lb bike after the
    batteries run down?

    All this has been done before and done better.

    Jim
     
  3. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    "Jim, N2VX" <[email protected]> in Message-id:
    <[email protected]> writes:

    . . .

    >>It seems to be microprocessor controlled electromagnets like a particle accelerator. I'm a bit
    >>surprised electromagnets could be much more efficient than permanent magnets.

    Aren't alternators and ac motors electromagnets?

    >Looks like one more expensive and heavy thing to break down.

    It might get real cheap real fast.

    >Anybody want to bet how many billions he will scam from the taxpayers?

    We definitely need to be openminded on transportation alternatives. Maybe DARPA shouldn't be passing
    out blank checks, but if you cannot quickly prove it is 100% valueless . . .

    >And then what do you do with a 60+ lb bike after the batteries run down?

    Save $50.00 in towing fees compared to a motor vehicle breaking down?

    Bret Cahill
     
  4. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    You want something that doesn't put out a plume of heat that can be seen 200 miles away on IR.

    That was the complaint about shirt button sized gas turbine engines to power computers out in
    the field.

    "garyaiki" <[email protected]> in Message-id:
    <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >Today's New York Times has an article about General Wes Clark promoting bicycle warfare.
     
  5. Garyaiki

    Garyaiki Guest

    "BretCahill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Aren't alternators and ac motors electromagnets?
    >
    You're right I only took DC motors apart, no picture in brain of AC motor.

    > >Looks like one more expensive and heavy thing to break down.
    >
    > It might get real cheap real fast.

    Does anyone want to speak up for any battery powered bicycles?

    Gary
     
  6. meb

    meb New Member

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    Electromagnets have long been employed in DC motors.
    Series and Shunt wound motors use electro-magnets rather than permanent magnets. Compund motos rely on both permanent and electromagnets together working with the armature. Even in a simple motor, the permanent magnets interact with the electromagnet of the armature.

    AC motors almost always rely on electro-magnets.
    Brushless motors are a new technology that I’m less familiar with. I believe you could make them with permanent magnets, but I believe most are made with electromagnets only.

    You find them in you disk drives, CD’s, anything you need
    They don’t wear out like brushed DC motors. My electric bike is made by Currie who was the first ebike maker to go to brushless DC motors. They regulate power by varying the widths of the pulses (Pulse Width Modulation or PWM). Brushed DC motors have narrower rpm window than brushed DC motors which in turn is narrower than AC motors. An AC motors works at its best efficiency when receiving sine wave input, so if you generate it from battery, you need more sophisticated electronics than the train of square wave pulses used with brushless DC.

    They are the newest approach in electric bikes because you can efficiently regulate RPM since you generally control brushed dc speed by an inefficient resistive load. Also you don’t need to worry about replacing brushes every 5000-10000miles. The down side is you need microprocessor based technology to control the pulses. And power electronics are about the least reliable semiconductors, so you do take a reliability hit.

    Other than small frictional losses associated with the brushes, a brushed DC motor ought not be more efficient than a brushless DC or an AC motor. The brushless DC motors and AC motors are more powerful per pound than brushed motors with permanent magnets, and on a mobile platform weight savings is of benefit.

    The hub motor approach used by Wavecrest is one of the more efficient electric drive train approaches being used and has the benefit of also not adding resistance when the electric drive is not in use.

    As for what you do when once the batteries are dead, you recharge or pedal. Pedalling a 60 lb bike is not desirable, but it isn't incomprehensibly difficult. I've frequently traveled 15 miles after the batteries are dead. Some manufactures have portable solar chargers. Sanyo and Rabbittools have regenerative braking systems, so the rider could recharge the batteries back by pedaling if they used that technology.

    I’ve never seen anybody put a battery in the front hub. Seems in a military setting, you might want the battery on the frame where most other ebike makers put them so you could quickly discard an 8-12 lb dead battery if circumstances called for less weight or change out a battery pack.
     
  7. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    meb <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I?ve never seen anybody put a battery in the front hub. Seems in a military setting, you might
    > want the battery on the frame where most other ebike makers put them so you could quickly discard
    > an 8-12 lb dead battery if circumstances called for less weight or change out a battery pack.

    Those are folding frames. I bet that the location of the battery was chosen on the basis of it not
    increasing the folded size of the bike.

    Chalo Colina
     
  8. meb

    meb New Member

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    May have more to do with folding/unfolding speed for this particular bike than size. A dealer is touting these for the folding speed and ease-1 quick release lever.

    Montague used this same frame on their DARPA electrics using a Currie electric system. They mounted the battery pack below the top tube, but folded they needed to seperately remove the battery pack, front tire and release the top tube folding latch. Probably would take 20-30 seconds. Wavecrest system probably folds in 5-10 secs.

    That dealer is also has an optional range extending second battery pack, so 15 miles may not be the extent. That dealer often custom makes range extending battery packs and Y-connections for electric bikes so that may not necessarily be a Wavecrest option. No price listed, but they say its more than twice as much as any other electric bike (not sure if they meant twice as much as any of thier own product line, the $1395 Panasonic is their highest price model, or twice as much as any on the market- I've seen some electric recumbent bike over $3000 and electric recumbent trikes over $4000).
     
  9. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    Use a generator to charge up the batteries going downhill or braking.

    Better still, do it the same way as hybrid race cars, as an electric "turbocharger."

    When the cyclist is stationary or moving slowly he can charge up the batteries.

    Bret Cahill
     
  10. meb

    meb New Member

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    Finally seen the price listed as $2600 to the general public, Nov. 2003 availability.
     
  11. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    meb <[email protected]> in
    >Message-id: <[email protected]> writes:

    . . .

    >Finally seen the price listed as $2600 to the general public, Nov. 2003 availability.

    Checker Auto Parts sells a battery bike for < $180.

    9 mile range @ ~15 mph.

    Bret Cahill
     
  12. meb

    meb New Member

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    What model?
     
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