general reliability of cycling computers...



alienator said:
And yes, it is doubly nice that to use it, you don't have to buy a specific crank or use a particular hub. The theory behind it is solid.

The only short coming is that people who do targeted interval training etc more on the trainer, me for example, aren't going to see this as a solution.

It might be interesting to see though what a decent price effective product does to prices on more traditional units. Maybe nothing, though maybe we'll see new low end models that will compete on the price point.

--brett
 
sideshow_bob said:
The only short coming is that people who do targeted interval training etc more on the trainer, me for example, aren't going to see this as a solution.

It might be interesting to see though what a decent price effective product does to prices on more traditional units. Maybe nothing, though maybe we'll see new low end models that will compete on the price point.

--brett

You're right about people on trainers, but I suspect that those people make up the smaller segment of the market.

As for the effect on prices, I don't think iBike's pricing will affect the pricing of traditional units at all. The big difference between iBike and the other units is that the other units require much more expensive hardware with much tighter tolerances.

And who knows what patents iBike has received or applied for. If they have a patent or an application in for a patent, that could make it difficult and/or expensive for someone to produce a similar product using similar methods.
 
Anyone found any comparisons on the resolution and accuracy of the unit? I understand Polar's unit is the least accurate of that lot with ±10% and the pricing reflects it. If iBike can get to that point or better at its price point... Wow!

"iBike", "iBook"... Wonder if Steve Jobs should take a look. ;)
 
alienator said:
As for the effect on prices, I don't think iBike's pricing will affect the pricing of traditional units at all. The big difference between iBike and the other units is that the other units require much more expensive hardware with much tighter tolerances.

I guess what I meant is if the iBike was to become quite popular, would the PowerTap people see there is a market for a low cost alternative that might be a percentage point or two lower in accuracy, and a little heavier etc and introduce a competing product, that used cheaper hardware, with lower tolerances etc as an entry level item, even if it meant for them a lower margin on the item? I'd suspect they'd see a business benefit in it, given that in any commoditizing consumer model theres certain benefits in acquiring the customer and moving them up the value chain over time. Of course putting significant downward price pressure on a start up competitor is also an equally valid reasoning.

Of course I could be completely wrong and Powertap, SRM et al will simply ignore them.

--brett
 
Match the competition or exit the market, isn't that's the law of business. The question really is just how good and accurate iBike is?
 
sogood said:
Match the competition or exit the market, isn't that's the law of business. The question really is just how good and accurate iBike is?

From what I understand, the iBike is just as accurate as those other units, and more importantly, just as precise, especially after the latest firmware upgrade. Accuracy is much less important than precision, because being precise means being able to repeatedly report a value that within the desired range. Something can be accurate but have poor precision, and something can be inaccurate but have great precision. The difference is that with good precision and poor accuracy, good accuracy can be derived by just finding how much the reported data is offset from absolute accurate data. However, as I stated, the prevailing opinion of users so far is that the iBike is both precise and accurate.

The firmware upgrade that happened was done to condition the signal out of the accelerometer. The initial firmware settings were such that the signal out of the accelerometer would read the noise from roads causing vibrations of a certain frequency, losing the desired signal in this noise. Apparently one thing that the latest firmware upgrade did was to damp the response of the accelerometer so that it wasn't sensitive to the higher frequency vibes of the road (which are many orders of magnitude different than the frequency spectra expected from human supplied power). One user 'round these parts said that the firmware upgrade did the trick.

The difficult thing for the other power meter makers will be keeping the precision and accuracy of their units WHILE lowering costs. If the iBike is indeed as accurate and precise as the Ergomo, the SRM, and/or the PowerTap, then those companies will either have to find a technological trick to allow them to drop prices and maintain their level of performance or they will have to accept a lower level of performance.

The iBike approach is very interesting since the only hardware it relies on for power calculation is the accelerometer and a pressure sensor. Both of those devices are well known and can easily be "calibrated" with software. They can also be easily "filtered" with software filters so that the desired data isn't lost in noise. Also, they can be made accurate by just testing the units to find how much their results are offset from known accurate results and then by just adding a software "offset" to bring the results to the required level of accuracy. This is a tried and true technique with all sorts of electronic measurements.

I had an experimental apparatus running that did optical testing of a mirror surface using liquid mirrors (aka, liquid mercury) as reference surfaces. The liquid mirrors were uber sensitive to the lowest amplitude vibrations, like air turbulence caused by temperature differentials in a 3 story room. By applying software "filters" we were able to remove the noise from turbulence to uncover the desired signal....which was of a much lower amplitutde. Again, this sort of thing is done all the time.

What makes the other powermeters so expensive is the need to have a highly accurately machined piece--a BB axle, hub axle, and etc--to which a strain guage is attached which measures deflections of that machined piece. It's that precise machining that makes the things so expensive. Also those powermeters require more hardware, specialty hardware, which only adds to the expense. For example, with SRM you can't just buy their bottom bracket with strain guage attached. You have to buy the computer and wiring harness AND the crankset. Power tap requires that you buy the computer, wiring harness, AND a specific hub. Ergomo requires the purchase of their BB and possibly a specific crankset (you definitely cannot choose any crankset.). The Polar unit isn't so expensive and doesn't require a lot of expensive equipment, BUT it is very sensitive to setup, sensor alignment, and a few other things. The Polar unit, because of its sensitivity to more factors, has more degrees of freedom and as result is less precise and less accurate.

I hope that iBike is the inspiration for a new trend of precise, accurate, and relatively cheap power meters. Power meters may be the greatest training tool for cyclists to date. As such, it's not good that their use is restricted to the wealthy, the well sponsored, or the racer crowd. Powermeters--especially the iBike--hold the possibility of improving cycling and opening possibilities for people with certain diseases. Diabetics, for example, might be able to use iBike to calibrate their own carbohydrate metabilization curve or blood sugar curve based on iBike readings. Even better, it might be possible for some slick software guy to write such a diabetic calibration software module that can be added to iBike software that would give periodic messages to the rider, like "Eat this much, now." This could revolutionize cycling for diabetics and non-diabetics. It could make bonks things of the past. Imagine, even for non-diabetics, how nice it would be to have software calibrate to your metabolism that alerted when and how much to eat or drink. That would truly optimize performance.
 
Yes, iBike is certainly very attractive at that price point. There's no way I'll consider those more expensive ones nor the Polar with its figety setup. Guess we'll just have to save up and wait for the side-by-side comparison. Of course, the best of all is it's fully Mac OS X compatible... Priceless! :D
 
sogood said:
Yes, iBike is certainly very attractive at that price point. There's no way I'll consider those more expensive ones nor the Polar with its figety setup. Guess we'll just have to save up and wait for the side-by-side comparison. Of course, the best of all is it's fully Mac OS X compatible... Priceless! :D

Finally, Mac compatibility is starting to happen on a large scale. Thank you M. Jobs for persevering! As a reward to Steven Jobs for the stellar job he's done of improving Apple's place in the computer world, I promise to buy one of the Power Macs with dual quad core chips when they become available in the next year (Can you imagine dual quad core chips...say, dual 3 GHz chips.....8 freakin' cores!....a MATLAB ***** like me gets all weak knee'd and juicy just thinking about that. That would be Photoshop heaven.). If nothing else, I promise that I'll at least buy one of the dual cored dual 3 Ghz chipped Power Macs that are out, now. And I promise to install 16 GB of RAM.

I used to hate computers until I bought a Mac. Mmmmm: it was love at first byte. That Mac made my last Wintel box seem like some head injured, red-headed step child. My 9 y.o. daughter is getting my current desktop (dual mirror doored G4 Power Mac, dual 1 GHz chips, 2 GB of RAM) when I make the desktop upgrade. I'll also give her my 22" Mitsubishi monitor so's I can make room for a 30" Apple HD Cinema Display. Mmmmmm, tasty.
 
alienator said:
I promise to buy one of the Power Macs with dual quad core chips when they become available in the next year (Can you imagine dual quad core chips...
I think you meant Mac Pro!!! ;)

Obviously His Holiness Steve J hasn't done enough Intel Mac marketing to reach you. :eek:
 
sogood said:
I think you meant Mac Pro!!! ;)

Obviously His Holiness Steve J hasn't done enough Intel Mac marketing to reach you. :eek:

Man, I don't need his marketing. All it took for me was seeing that my MATLAB code ran 2-3 times faster on a Mac similarly spec'd to Windowz box....oh, and having all that time go by with zero problems on a Mac helped, too.

Yeah, I meant Mac Pro....I haven't kept up with all the new names. I'm blinded by multiple cores and multiple processors, and also a fair helping of internet ****....