Getting fatter while on ketosis ?

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Hueyduck, Feb 3, 2006.

  1. Hueyduck

    Hueyduck Guest

    Hi everyone,

    I was wondering something very simple.
    Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    answer.

    The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    big lunch.
    Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    really fat.

    Thanks for your answers.

    Huey
     
    Tags:


  2. Susan

    Susan Guest

    x-no-archive: yes

    Hueyduck wrote:
    > Hi everyone,
    >
    > I was wondering something very simple.
    > Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    > For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    > answer.


    Yes, and I gained 20 lbs while in ketosis when I tried Atkins induction
    levels. You can be in ketosis burning dietary, not body fat, and adding
    fat if your calories are too high.

    >
    > The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    > ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    > much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    > big lunch.
    > Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    > really fat.


    Ketostix will not help you evaluate your diet or weight loss; they don't
    distinguish between fat you eat and body fat you burn, nor do they tell
    you if you've just burned off ketones rather than peeing them out. They
    don't measure ketosis, they only measure ketonuria (ketones in the urine).

    Your clothes and your tape measure are far more useful measures, and
    cheaper. :)

    Susan
     
  3. Hueyduck wrote:
    >
    > Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.


    While the answer to that question is yes ...

    > But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    > big lunch.


    "Quite big lunch" is far too little to be able to do it.

    Ketosis gives some amount of resistance to depositing new
    stored fat because ketosis means the glucagon level is high
    and the direction of fat is out of storage. Not even 500
    calories extra in a day will be enough to push fat into storage
    for most folks in ketosis, though 100 calories extra a day
    would be enough. You don't eat an entire stick of butter as
    a snack right? Doing that would be enough extra.

    The advantage of ketosis is it cuts into appetite making it
    less likely. Your meals are probably fewer calories than
    before you started.

    If you want to count calories feel free.
     
  4. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    "Doug Freyburger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hueyduck wrote:
    >>
    >> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.

    >
    > While the answer to that question is yes ...
    >
    >> But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    >> big lunch.

    >
    > "Quite big lunch" is far too little to be able to do it.
    >
    > Ketosis gives some amount of resistance to depositing new
    > stored fat because ketosis means the glucagon level is high
    > and the direction of fat is out of storage.


    > Not even 500
    > calories extra in a day will be enough to push fat into storage
    > for most folks in ketosis, though 100 calories extra a day
    > would be enough.


    What? Assuming you meant 1000, where did you get these numbers?

    > You don't eat an entire stick of butter as
    > a snack right? Doing that would be enough extra.
    >
    > The advantage of ketosis is it cuts into appetite making it
    > less likely. Your meals are probably fewer calories than
    > before you started.
    >
    > If you want to count calories feel free.
    >
     
  5. "4. Roger Zoul Feb 3, 10:30 pm

    What? Assuming you meant 1000, where did you get these numbers? "

    I suspect they came from the usual place... :)
     
  6. "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > x-no-archive: yes
    >
    > Hueyduck wrote:
    >> Hi everyone,
    >>
    >> I was wondering something very simple.
    >> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    >> For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    >> answer.

    >
    > Yes, and I gained 20 lbs while in ketosis when I tried Atkins induction
    > levels. You can be in ketosis burning dietary, not body fat, and adding
    > fat if your calories are too high.
    >
    >>
    >> The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    >> ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    >> much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    >> big lunch.
    >> Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    >> really fat.

    >
    > Ketostix will not help you evaluate your diet or weight loss; they don't
    > distinguish between fat you eat and body fat you burn, nor do they tell
    > you if you've just burned off ketones rather than peeing them out. They
    > don't measure ketosis, they only measure ketonuria (ketones in the urine).
    >
    > Your clothes and your tape measure are far more useful measures, and
    > cheaper. :)
    >
    > Susan


    Absolutely Susan. Calories count! Watch your levels of fat, it's not the
    demon they say it is (especially the better fats) but it's still almost
    twice as calorically dense as carbs or protein.

    Forcing myself to eat vegetables and lunch and dinner seems to really take
    the weight off too.
     
  7. "Joe the Aroma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> x-no-archive: yes
    >>
    >> Hueyduck wrote:
    >>> Hi everyone,
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering something very simple.
    >>> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    >>> For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    >>> answer.

    >>
    >> Yes, and I gained 20 lbs while in ketosis when I tried Atkins induction
    >> levels. You can be in ketosis burning dietary, not body fat, and adding
    >> fat if your calories are too high.
    >>
    >>>
    >>> The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    >>> ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    >>> much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    >>> big lunch.
    >>> Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    >>> really fat.

    >>
    >> Ketostix will not help you evaluate your diet or weight loss; they don't
    >> distinguish between fat you eat and body fat you burn, nor do they tell
    >> you if you've just burned off ketones rather than peeing them out. They
    >> don't measure ketosis, they only measure ketonuria (ketones in the
    >> urine).
    >>
    >> Your clothes and your tape measure are far more useful measures, and
    >> cheaper. :)
    >>
    >> Susan

    >
    > Absolutely Susan. Calories count! Watch your levels of fat, it's not the
    > demon they say it is (especially the better fats) but it's still almost
    > twice as calorically dense as carbs or protein.
    >
    > Forcing myself to eat vegetables and lunch and dinner seems to really take
    > the weight off too.


    and lunch = at lunch
     
  8. "Hueyduck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi everyone,
    >
    > I was wondering something very simple.
    > Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    > For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    > answer.
    >
    > The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    > ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    > much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    > big lunch.
    > Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    > really fat.
    >
    > Thanks for your answers.
    >
    > Huey


    You can get fatter eating too many calories of anything. You eat enough
    celery you will get fat (although it'd have to be mind boggling amounts).
    The emphasis on ketosis is unfortunate in the LC world and I'd suspect it's
    derailed many LC dieters. Ketosis does have one advantage and that is it's
    appetite suppressing mechanism, which not everyone experiences.
     
  9. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    "Joe the Aroma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> x-no-archive: yes
    >>
    >> Hueyduck wrote:
    >>> Hi everyone,
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering something very simple.
    >>> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    >>> For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    >>> answer.

    >>
    >> Yes, and I gained 20 lbs while in ketosis when I tried Atkins induction
    >> levels. You can be in ketosis burning dietary, not body fat, and adding
    >> fat if your calories are too high.
    >>
    >>>
    >>> The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    >>> ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    >>> much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    >>> big lunch.
    >>> Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    >>> really fat.

    >>
    >> Ketostix will not help you evaluate your diet or weight loss; they don't
    >> distinguish between fat you eat and body fat you burn, nor do they tell
    >> you if you've just burned off ketones rather than peeing them out. They
    >> don't measure ketosis, they only measure ketonuria (ketones in the
    >> urine).
    >>
    >> Your clothes and your tape measure are far more useful measures, and
    >> cheaper. :)
    >>
    >> Susan

    >
    > Absolutely Susan. Calories count! Watch your levels of fat, it's not the
    > demon they say it is (especially the better fats) but it's still almost
    > twice as calorically dense as carbs or protein.
    >
    > Forcing myself to eat vegetables and lunch and dinner seems to really take
    > the weight off too.


    That's absolutely true. Those very low carb fibrous veggies are a good way
    to fill the belly. I like eating raw veggies and meat with it.
     
  10. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    "Joe the Aroma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Hueyduck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> Hi everyone,
    >>
    >> I was wondering something very simple.
    >> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    >> For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    >> answer.
    >>
    >> The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    >> ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    >> much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    >> big lunch.
    >> Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    >> really fat.
    >>
    >> Thanks for your answers.
    >>
    >> Huey

    >
    > You can get fatter eating too many calories of anything. You eat enough
    > celery you will get fat (although it'd have to be mind boggling amounts).
    > The emphasis on ketosis is unfortunate in the LC world and I'd suspect
    > it's derailed many LC dieters. Ketosis does have one advantage and that is
    > it's appetite suppressing mechanism, which not everyone experiences.


    I don't think ketosis is all of the problem...but somehow people have gotten
    the notion that one can eat as much LC fatty food as they *want* and not
    gain weight. I know I can. Some of us just like to eat, which is an
    altogether different issue than eating because of bloor sugar swings.

    Of course, it's complex too. For example, I never binge on steak but I can
    binge on nuts. And nuts have some carbs (which, btw, seems to vary all over
    the map depending on one's source for nutritional info). Eat a lot of nuts
    and you start to get significant amounts of carbs AND fat. So, some of it
    could be just do to sloppy LCing...
     
  11. [email protected] wrote:
    > "4. Roger Zoul Feb 3, 10:30 pm
    >
    > > What? Assuming you meant 1000, where did you get these numbers? "


    Thanks for correcting the typo.

    > I suspect they came from the usual place... :)


    Atkins Center does occasionally gather data and they are the
    source. Several years ago their was an example on their web
    page of a person in ketosis who gained consistantly to the
    point it had to be new fat not water. After several weeks of
    questioning they finally got her to log everything she ate. Her
    nightly snack was a stick of butter with cinnamon. A stick of
    butter in the US is a quarter pound, about 115 grams of fat.
    That's a thousand extra calories rounded off. That's in
    addition to an otherwise common Atkins diet of low carb,
    medium protein, high fat.

    Ketosis may direct fat out of storage in the body because of
    the glucagon, but it can't do that in the face of over eating.

    Still, a big lunch is very unlikely to be that level of over eating.

    BTW, I notice you're still mentally incapable of quoting. Sigh.
    Not your fault the doctor dropped you on the head when you
    were born.
     
  12. Hueyduck

    Hueyduck Guest

    Joe the Aroma wrote:
    > "Hueyduck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >

    Thanks you for all your answers.

    Btw, I did know that ketosys could mean that I was buirning food fat :)
    But i just couldn't firgure out how a body could start the process of
    fat burning while it stores it at the same time.

    Now I know it is perfectly possiblie.

    Susan, don't take this the wrong way, but:
    how could you manage to stay in induction stage long enough to take 20
    pounds. It would have freakened me out so much I would have lost 'faith'
    (if you know what I mean) in less than it takes to gain half of that.


    Good night everyone and thanks again.

    Huey
     
  13. Susan

    Susan Guest

    x-no-archive: yes

    Hueyduck wrote:

    > Susan, don't take this the wrong way, but:
    > how could you manage to stay in induction stage long enough to take 20
    > pounds.


    I didn't, actually. I was slim and doing it to counter hypoglycemia and
    insulin resistance. What I didn't bargain for was that it lowered my T3
    thyroid so much that my metabolism slowed to a crawl and stayed there,
    even after I quit induction levels.

    > It would have freakened me out so much I would have lost 'faith'
    > (if you know what I mean) in less than it takes to gain half of that.


    I never had faith in the Atkins diet plan, but I did know that I had to
    low carb for my health. I just discovered the hard way that extreme low
    carb isn't for everyone.

    Susan
     
  14. jbuch

    jbuch Guest

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >>"4. Roger Zoul Feb 3, 10:30 pm
    >>
    >>
    >>>What? Assuming you meant 1000, where did you get these numbers? "

    >
    >
    > Thanks for correcting the typo.
    >
    >
    >>I suspect they came from the usual place... :)

    >
    >
    > Atkins Center does occasionally gather data and they are the
    > source. Several years ago their was an example on their web
    > page of a person in ketosis who gained consistantly to the
    > point it had to be new fat not water. After several weeks of
    > questioning they finally got her to log everything she ate. Her
    > nightly snack was a stick of butter with cinnamon. A stick of
    > butter in the US is a quarter pound, about 115 grams of fat.
    > That's a thousand extra calories rounded off. That's in
    > addition to an otherwise common Atkins diet of low carb,
    > medium protein, high fat.
    >
    > Ketosis may direct fat out of storage in the body because of
    > the glucagon, but it can't do that in the face of over eating.
    >
    > Still, a big lunch is very unlikely to be that level of over eating.
    >
    > BTW, I notice you're still mentally incapable of quoting. Sigh.
    > Not your fault the doctor dropped you on the head when you
    > were born.
    >



    Doug --

    Here is your original statement:

    > Not even 500
    > calories extra in a day will be enough to push fat into storage
    > for most folks in ketosis, though 100 calories extra a day
    > would be enough.


    Evidently, there is an obvious typo of 100 for 1000, or else you are
    quite inconsistent.....

    The figures that you quote above DO NOT substantiate that it requires
    1000 calories (rounded off)...... unless you are inconsistent and
    actually meant 100 calories would do it, but not even 500 calories would
    not be enough.

    I fully understand the poster who felt that your figures "came from the
    usual place".

    Perhaps, you can understand that reaction in people from carefully
    reading your writings on this matter.


    --
    1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
    2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
    3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
    book
    4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)
     
  15. Ernst Primer

    Ernst Primer Guest

    Roger Zoul wrote:
    > "Joe the Aroma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > "Hueyduck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> Hi everyone,
    > >>
    > >> I was wondering something very simple.
    > >> Is it possible for a body to produce fat while beeing in ketosis.
    > >> For me it would be a nonsense, but I'd rather ask if there is a known
    > >> answer.
    > >>
    > >> The reason I ask this is that I don't count calories, sometimes. Once my
    > >> ketostix show purple, I just watch what I eat in order not to get too
    > >> much carbs. But sometimes, without counting, it seems like I eat quite
    > >> big lunch.
    > >> Thus my question. I'm not talking about muscle or water weight, but
    > >> really fat.
    > >>
    > >> Thanks for your answers.
    > >>
    > >> Huey

    > >
    > > You can get fatter eating too many calories of anything. You eat enough
    > > celery you will get fat (although it'd have to be mind boggling amounts).
    > > The emphasis on ketosis is unfortunate in the LC world and I'd suspect
    > > it's derailed many LC dieters. Ketosis does have one advantage and that is
    > > it's appetite suppressing mechanism, which not everyone experiences.

    >
    > I don't think ketosis is all of the problem...but somehow people have gotten
    > the notion that one can eat as much LC fatty food as they *want* and not
    > gain weight. I know I can. Some of us just like to eat, which is an
    > altogether different issue than eating because of bloor sugar swings.
    >
    > Of course, it's complex too. For example, I never binge on steak but I can
    > binge on nuts. And nuts have some carbs (which, btw, seems to vary all over
    > the map depending on one's source for nutritional info). Eat a lot of nuts
    > and you start to get significant amounts of carbs AND fat. So, some of it
    > could be just do to sloppy LCing...


    I have no problem with the notion that all diets essentially work on
    the same principle - more calories out than calories in, and you lose.
    Wreck that principle, and you gain. Kind of obvious.

    Anyways, a little OT digression - the story about the lady who ate
    the stick of butter with cinnamon reminded me of a 'Simpsons' reference
    (early on in the first season of the show).... I don't remember the
    context, but Homer takes 1) waffle mix, 2) some sort of hard candies
    (toffee?) 3) liquid smoke, and throws all three into a waffle iron.
    Then, after the mixture calcifies under the heat of the iron, he peels
    it out, wraps the whole mess around a stick of butter, and sticks the
    whole thing on a toothpick before eating it.

    Can anyone help me with this reference (or recipe)? It's been a
    while since I've watched the show.
     
  16. Hueyduck

    Hueyduck Guest

    Ernst Primer wrote:
    > Roger Zoul wrote:


    >
    > Can anyone help me with this reference (or recipe)? It's been a
    > while since I've watched the show.
    >

    It's season 4 episode 3, "Homer the Heretic".

    Huey
     
  17. jbuch wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > >>"4. Roger Zoul Feb 3, 10:30 pm
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>What? Assuming you meant 1000, where did you get these numbers? "

    > >
    > >
    > > Thanks for correcting the typo.
    > >
    > >
    > >>I suspect they came from the usual place... :)

    > >
    > >
    > > Atkins Center does occasionally gather data and they are the
    > > source. Several years ago their was an example on their web
    > > page of a person in ketosis who gained consistantly to the
    > > point it had to be new fat not water. After several weeks of
    > > questioning they finally got her to log everything she ate. Her
    > > nightly snack was a stick of butter with cinnamon. A stick of
    > > butter in the US is a quarter pound, about 115 grams of fat.
    > > That's a thousand extra calories rounded off. That's in
    > > addition to an otherwise common Atkins diet of low carb,
    > > medium protein, high fat.
    > >
    > > Ketosis may direct fat out of storage in the body because of
    > > the glucagon, but it can't do that in the face of over eating.
    > >
    > > Still, a big lunch is very unlikely to be that level of over eating.
    > >
    > > BTW, I notice you're still mentally incapable of quoting. Sigh.
    > > Not your fault the doctor dropped you on the head when you
    > > were born.
    > >

    >
    >
    > Doug --
    >
    > Here is your original statement:
    >
    > > Not even 500
    > > calories extra in a day will be enough to push fat into storage
    > > for most folks in ketosis, though 100 calories extra a day
    > > would be enough.

    >
    > Evidently, there is an obvious typo of 100 for 1000, or else you are
    > quite inconsistent.....
    >
    > The figures that you quote above DO NOT substantiate that it requires
    > 1000 calories (rounded off)...... unless you are inconsistent and
    > actually meant 100 calories would do it, but not even 500 calories would
    > not be enough.
    >
    > I fully understand the poster who felt that your figures "came from the
    > usual place".
    >
    > Perhaps, you can understand that reaction in people from carefully
    > reading your writings on this matter.
    >



    Now he attributes these numbers to Atkins Center? Link please. So
    based on memories of years ago of an alleged one person data point,
    advice and actual numbers are once again stated as if they were
    established fact. In fact, I don't think any of us have seen any
    similar numbers anywhere else.
     
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