Getting skinny

[Carrera]

Here's a weird one. As most people know, I'm one of those dudes who used to be a bodybuilder and then jumped to cycling after many years. I guess it would be true to say I enjoy cycling more than gyming, except when I crash, of course.
Well, here's the point: Do ex-bodybuilders or other folks share my own personal difficulties over shedding all those muscles as a result of miles and miles in the saddle? It's not that I want to remain muscle-bound as I used to be but there are times I see myself as being a bit too skinny these days. Obviously, as I spend more and more time riding, I find I look more and more "normal" - lean and normal sized.
The catch 22 is if I put the muscle back on, it will be more weight for me in the hills to lug about and the simple fact is cyclists aren't meant to be brawny, correct? I've heard some cyclists on this forum say they get huge legs just cycling but that's not my case. When I cycle my legs tend to get thinner as I'm naturally ectomorphic.
Is this a dumb post or does it push any buttons?

 

[kmavm]

Here's a weird one. As most people know, I'm one of those dudes who used to be a bodybuilder and then jumped to cycling after many years. I guess it would be true to say I enjoy cycling more than gyming, except when I crash, of course.
Well, here's the point: Do ex-bodybuilders or other folks share my own personal difficulties over shedding all those muscles as a result of miles and miles in the saddle? It's not that I want to remain muscle-bound as I used to be but there are times I see myself as being a bit too skinny these days. Obviously, as I spend more and more time riding, I find I look more and more "normal" - lean and normal sized.
The catch 22 is if I put the muscle back on, it will be more weight for me in the hills to lug about and the simple fact is cyclists aren't meant to be brawny, correct? I've heard some cyclists on this forum say they get huge legs just cycling but that's not my case. When I cycle my legs tend to get thinner as I'm naturally ectomorphic.
Is this a dumb post or does it push any buttons?

Like most training questions, it depends what you want to get out of cycling. Most male cyclists trade off some of their masculine appearance for cycling performance; endurance cycling makes pretty meager demands in terms of strength, so being fully adapted to cycling means having less muscle mass than athletes in most other sports. Also, high-volume endurance training reduces testosterone levels. That's acceptable to some folks, not so to others. It depends how badly you want to ride your bike fast, vs. how badly you want to look like a huge Manly Man . Only you can answer that...

 

[wilmar13]

Also, high-volume endurance training reduces testosterone levels.

Unless you are Floyd Landis in which case it can increase dramatically

 

[Carrera]

Now you started something! I've mentioned this before. My sex drive has fallen so much since I started hard cycling training. I don't know if it has to do with the cycling or my age but certainly sex drive is lower.
My doctor told me I was wrong. He said exercise increases testosterone and, therefore, sex drive.

Like most training questions, it depends what you want to get out of cycling. Most male cyclists trade off some of their masculine appearance for cycling performance; endurance cycling makes pretty meager demands in terms of strength, so being fully adapted to cycling means having less muscle mass than athletes in most other sports. Also, high-volume endurance training reduces testosterone levels. That's acceptable to some folks, not so to others. It depends how badly you want to ride your bike fast, vs. how badly you want to look like a huge Manly Man . Only you can answer that...

 

[Carrera]

That's an interesting point in itself. Some cyclists argue that the testosterone only normalises levels. Let's face it if you ride 6 hours a day in the Tour, chances are your body will be under stress and testosterone will drop. It could go below the normal accepted level.
A friend saw the Tour results on the news, looked at Landis and expressed the view he looked awful, drawn and pale. I explained that was because of the stresses involved in the Tour and the huge demands made on the body.

Unless you are Floyd Landis in which case it can increase dramatically

 

[rayhuang]

This may sound crazy, but if your a strong rider and have a great sprint, then your specialty is sprinting and hauling the big gears on the flats. If you choose to put on more muscle mass for whatever reason, with any luck it wont affect your good cycling points as much. I have known many good sprinters who could just hang on enough in the hills to be able to chase back on when it flattened out.


I cannot sprint, never could and never will. I am now 40 lbs over my racing weihgt of 20 years ago, so I assume I will never climb like I did too. I accept that and will train to be a more powerful rider now than light and fast.

My point being, what are you good at and what are you bad at? Whats genetic and what can you hope to get better at w/ training?

 

[Carrera]

To give you an idea. I can level off at around 26 mph on the flat although I'm usually riding between 19 - 21 mph.
On smallish climbs I checked myself at about 16 mph.
On steep climbs I can manage about 7 mph.
My weight is around 185 pounds but I should lose my slight beer gut, I guess.
My fitness is my weakest point. I'm prone to exhaustion and virtual bonk if I overtax myself in a sprint e.t.c.
My strongest point is that at my best, I can hold my own on the climbs and maybe only fall slightly back but I can drop people on the descent with my body weight being higher and the fact my bike isn't carbon.
I'm 42 so no spring chicken. I enjoy cycling a lot and that includes the training as well as the bike mechanics aspect.

This may sound crazy, but if your a strong rider and have a great sprint, then your specialty is sprinting and hauling the big gears on the flats. If you choose to put on more muscle mass for whatever reason, with any luck it wont affect your good cycling points as much. I have known many good sprinters who could just hang on enough in the hills to be able to chase back on when it flattened out.


I cannot sprint, never could and never will. I am now 40 lbs over my racing weihgt of 20 years ago, so I assume I will never climb like I did too. I accept that and will train to be a more powerful rider now than light and fast.

My point being, what are you good at and what are you bad at? Whats genetic and what can you hope to get better at w/ training?

 

[Carrera]

How much endurance work do you think a sprinter should do? I understand sprinters tend to go flat out on certain days but they do easy days too, correct?

This may sound crazy, but if your a strong rider and have a great sprint, then your specialty is sprinting and hauling the big gears on the flats. If you choose to put on more muscle mass for whatever reason, with any luck it wont affect your good cycling points as much. I have known many good sprinters who could just hang on enough in the hills to be able to chase back on when it flattened out.


I cannot sprint, never could and never will. I am now 40 lbs over my racing weihgt of 20 years ago, so I assume I will never climb like I did too. I accept that and will train to be a more powerful rider now than light and fast.

My point being, what are you good at and what are you bad at? Whats genetic and what can you hope to get better at w/ training?

 

[rayhuang]

To give you an idea. I can level off at around 26 mph on the flat although I'm usually riding between 19 - 21 mph.
On smallish climbs I checked myself at about 16 mph.
On steep climbs I can manage about 7 mph.
My weight is around 185 pounds but I should lose my slight beer gut, I guess.
My fitness is my weakest point. I'm prone to exhaustion and virtual bonk if I overtax myself in a sprint e.t.c.
My strongest point is that at my best, I can hold my own on the climbs and maybe only fall slightly back but I can drop people on the descent with my body weight being higher and the fact my bike isn't carbon.
I'm 42 so no spring chicken. I enjoy cycling a lot and that includes the training as well as the bike mechanics aspect.

I am 40 and havent trained in 15 years, strangely the same number years I have been married-coincidence?? no laziness. When i got married I was a 132lb hill climbing machine on a 22 lb bike. Yesterday I went out for my 2nd ride of the year and at 171 lbs, I rode 19 miles in the 90 deg heat and I was whooped when i got home. The one climb of about 3/4 miles and the rollers had me almost seeing stars!! My ave speed was a paltry 13 mph....Climbing came easy to me even early in the season back then. I dont want to be 132 lbs again as I was a a rail. I am shooting for 165 lbs and strengthening my upper body soon with weight training, but losing some body fat along the way. I just ordered a 17.5 lb bike! At least my bike lost 4 lbs while I gained 20.

Basically I think I'll be standing up more on climbs if I am to stick in with group rides.....pretty much adpating to my "new" older body.

 

[rayhuang]

How much endurance work do you think a sprinter should do? I understand sprinters tend to go flat out on certain days but they do easy days too, correct?

Ive been out of it for awhile, but back when all us racers did the exact same training. Wed sprint and do intervals one morning and some days wed go for 60 to 80 miles of hard, but not crazy miles.

Maybe nowadays people have much more targeted training, but if your hardcore-I would think you would do it all. as I recall we did rcing or big rides on the weekend. Spin easy for 40 miles on Monday. Wednesday was a longer ride and Thursday morning was hell day (intervals). Easy ride Friday and Saturday and start over. I'd usually take one day off a week, maybe two.

 

[kmavm]

How much endurance work do you think a sprinter should do? I understand sprinters tend to go flat out on certain days but they do easy days too, correct?

What people call "sprinters" in the sport of road cycling would not be considered "sprinters" by any normal exercise physiology type. Yes, professional "sprint specialists" aren't as ridiculously deficient in fast-twitch ability as your average roadie. However, in the grand scheme of things they're still really endurance athletes, who manage to keep a smidgen of sprint fitness on the side. Their training has more in common with that of marathon runners than that of 100m runners. The idea that these guys are "huge" is also not necessarily the case. Robbie McEwen is something like 145 pounds.

As for "exercise increasing testosterone," well, there are different sorts of exercise. Almost all exercise acutely raises testosterone. However, studies of hard-training endurance athletes (i.e., more than 8 hours a week) almost always show reduced levels of vitamin T. E.g.:

http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/34/4/273 ("...there was a significant negative correlation between total testosterone (r = -0.73, p<0.01) and free testosterone (r = -0.79, p<0.005) and running volume...")

Testosterone Is Significantly Reduced in Endurance Athletes without Impact on Bone Mineral Density: "Conclusion: Only the endurance training of CY (cyclists) and TR (triathletes) induced androgen deficiency without apparent alteration of BMD."

And so on. It's a pretty robust; most serious endurance athletes are at least a little bit hypogonadal. I am tempted to go so far as to say that this is part of a normal male's adaptation to endurance training...

 

[li0scc0]

Here's a weird one. As most people know, I'm one of those dudes who used to be a bodybuilder and then jumped to cycling after many years. I guess it would be true to say I enjoy cycling more than gyming, except when I crash, of course.
Well, here's the point: Do ex-bodybuilders or other folks share my own personal difficulties over shedding all those muscles as a result of miles and miles in the saddle? It's not that I want to remain muscle-bound as I used to be but there are times I see myself as being a bit too skinny these days. Obviously, as I spend more and more time riding, I find I look more and more "normal" - lean and normal sized.
The catch 22 is if I put the muscle back on, it will be more weight for me in the hills to lug about and the simple fact is cyclists aren't meant to be brawny, correct? I've heard some cyclists on this forum say they get huge legs just cycling but that's not my case. When I cycle my legs tend to get thinner as I'm naturally ectomorphic.
Is this a dumb post or does it push any buttons?

I figured you were an ex bodybuilder with the Mike Mentzer picture! I was a Mentzer protege, trained by him directly and met him numerous times.

I now weigh 180lbs. When I started cycling I was 220 pounds and cut. The 40 pounds I have lost have pretty much all been muscle, mostly torso mass.
Stay out of the gym. You are likely not too skinny. I made the mistake of going to the gym for 4 weeks in January of this year. When I walked in the first day I was 182.5, just 2.5 lbs over my racing weight (eventually I want to get to 172lbs, but all in time). On February 1st I was over 200 pounds. Your muscle has a memory, and lifting will trigger a quick muscle gain.
Compared to when I was 220 (and especially to when I weighed 268!!!) my legs look very small. Compared to most cyclists my legs are huge. If you actually have leg STRENGTH issues, then yes, lifting LEGS (squats and leg presses) might be beneficial. But don't worry about size, worry about strength. And stay away from your upper body lifting!

 

[Carrera]

It was sad to hear about the deaths of Mike and Ray Mentzer and Mike's philosophy I believe is as useful for cyclists as other athletes. Namely the idea that physical perfection in a sport should be combined with education of the mind, in science and logic.
Yes, he was truly an inspiration.
What can I say. This may sound humorous but as a cyclist I find girls are apparently more attracted to me, without a doubt. I think they find me more approachable as a normal sized individual whereas before I was beefy and seemed intimidating perhaps.
The thing about cyclists is they mostly appear normal. The freaky aspect of development you don't see with the naked eye - such as Armstrong's heart being a third the size of a normal man's and Indurain's lung size.
What does bothers me, though, is that most car-drivers wouldn't have dared say boo to me when I was bulked up whereas today they do. That's something that did strike me.

I figured you were an ex bodybuilder with the Mike Mentzer picture! I was a Mentzer protege, trained by him directly and met him numerous times.

I now weigh 180lbs. When I started cycling I was 220 pounds and cut. The 40 pounds I have lost have pretty much all been muscle, mostly torso mass.
Stay out of the gym. You are likely not too skinny. I made the mistake of going to the gym for 4 weeks in January of this year. When I walked in the first day I was 182.5, just 2.5 lbs over my racing weight (eventually I want to get to 172lbs, but all in time). On February 1st I was over 200 pounds. Your muscle has a memory, and lifting will trigger a quick muscle gain.
Compared to when I was 220 (and especially to when I weighed 268!!!) my legs look very small. Compared to most cyclists my legs are huge. If you actually have leg STRENGTH issues, then yes, lifting LEGS (squats and leg presses) might be beneficial. But don't worry about size, worry about strength. And stay away from your upper body lifting!

 

[Carrera]

It's a long story but I took a year out of serious cycling when I winded up with a boat which I'm restoring. However, as the boat is quite far from where I live, deep in the country, I cycle there and back. It's quite a long ride and there are steep hills I can sprint up to keep myself in form.
Every so often, club riders may challenge me and speed past as I'm riding home so I do my best to respond.
At any rate, I do a lot of miles on the flat and a bit of climbing but serious training has been postponed. Certainly I've lost a lot of weight and virtually all my muscle that I used to carry.
At the moment cycling is all I do and that's it. I don't even have time for any other activity. I did notice with some satisfaction I was pushing 27 mph in a light wind the other week which seems not so bad - even if for short periods. But fitness is far from optimum.

I am 40 and havent trained in 15 years, strangely the same number years I have been married-coincidence?? no laziness. When i got married I was a 132lb hill climbing machine on a 22 lb bike. Yesterday I went out for my 2nd ride of the year and at 171 lbs, I rode 19 miles in the 90 deg heat and I was whooped when i got home. The one climb of about 3/4 miles and the rollers had me almost seeing stars!! My ave speed was a paltry 13 mph....Climbing came easy to me even early in the season back then. I dont want to be 132 lbs again as I was a a rail. I am shooting for 165 lbs and strengthening my upper body soon with weight training, but losing some body fat along the way. I just ordered a 17.5 lb bike! At least my bike lost 4 lbs while I gained 20.

Basically I think I'll be standing up more on climbs if I am to stick in with group rides.....pretty much adpating to my "new" older body.

 

[Carrera]

In short, do you feel cyclists have lower levels of testosterone than non-endurance athletes? I ride about 3 hours a day so would that affect my own levels or are we talking more serious riding?

What people call "sprinters" in the sport of road cycling would not be considered "sprinters" by any normal exercise physiology type. Yes, professional "sprint specialists" aren't as ridiculously deficient in fast-twitch ability as your average roadie. However, in the grand scheme of things they're still really endurance athletes, who manage to keep a smidgen of sprint fitness on the side. Their training has more in common with that of marathon runners than that of 100m runners. The idea that these guys are "huge" is also not necessarily the case. Robbie McEwen is something like 145 pounds.

As for "exercise increasing testosterone," well, there are different sorts of exercise. Almost all exercise acutely raises testosterone. However, studies of hard-training endurance athletes (i.e., more than 8 hours a week) almost always show reduced levels of vitamin T. E.g.:

http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/34/4/273 ("...there was a significant negative correlation between total testosterone (r = -0.73, p<0.01) and free testosterone (r = -0.79, p<0.005) and running volume...")

Testosterone Is Significantly Reduced in Endurance Athletes without Impact on Bone Mineral Density: "Conclusion: Only the endurance training of CY (cyclists) and TR (triathletes) induced androgen deficiency without apparent alteration of BMD."

And so on. It's a pretty robust; most serious endurance athletes are at least a little bit hypogonadal. I am tempted to go so far as to say that this is part of a normal male's adaptation to endurance training...

 

[Doctor Morbius]

... Do ex-bodybuilders or other folks share my own personal difficulties over shedding all those muscles as a result of miles and miles in the saddle? It's not that I want to remain muscle-bound as I used to be but there are times I see myself as being a bit too skinny these days. Obviously, as I spend more and more time riding, I find I look more and more "normal" - lean and normal sized....

Why would you want to lose all of the muscle mass that you worked so hard for years to build up? I'm not suggesting that you hulk up to Ronnie Coleman's grotesque size or anything, but what is wrong with maintaining some of that? For us recreational, non-competitive riders it's not that important unless you make it so.

For what it's worth I always state a similar viewpoint to non-competitive bodybuilders and powerlifters. Let's face it, 95% of us aren't going to amount to jack **** in the competitive world (especially in BB & PL) unless we are willing to take massive doses of roids and other agents.

So for those of us who don't compete, don't race, don't care to be either Mr. Olympia or the next Lance Armstrong we're better off focusing on being a healthy all rounder. What good is it to train your butt off so you can do single max bench presses and squats with phenomenally heavy weight if you can't walk up a damned flight of stairs without getting winded? MOST powerlifters fit into that classification!

On the other side of the argument, why would anyone wish to be as gaunt and horrible looking as Michael Rasmussen? The guy looks like he has osteoperosis for God's sake.

Somewhere in the middle is room for people like you and I, Carrera. There's plenty of space between the two extremes for being fit and a little buff. <now if I could only achieve that!>

 

[sideshow_bob]

What people call "sprinters" in the sport of road cycling would not be considered "sprinters" by any normal exercise physiology type. Yes, professional "sprint specialists" aren't as ridiculously deficient in fast-twitch ability as your average roadie. However, in the grand scheme of things they're still really endurance athletes, who manage to keep a smidgen of sprint fitness on the side. Their training has more in common with that of marathon runners than that of 100m runners. The idea that these guys are "huge" is also not necessarily the case. Robbie McEwen is something like 145 pounds.

McEwan is not really a good example as he's about 5 foot nothing. How much does Thor or Boonen weight?

They might not be huge but at their particular height you'll find they have 10-20% more mass than either the climbers or the more in the middle type generalists.

--brett

 

[dm69]

Carrera it sounds like you're a recreational rider who just wants to improve his fitness, good on you.

My advice is that you do what you want, if you feel like going to the gym then do it. If you hate hills then dont do it .

If you have ambitions to be a racer then it changes a lil bit.

You measure your performance in avg speed, this will not do if you want to get serious. Invest in a PM and post a message like "increasing max wattage" at the PM forum. Sounds like your not a true natural sprinter so for someone your size I would recommend a lot of TT work and avoid the gym (you've done enough of that already ). Eventually a bit of muscle will creep away and you could be a very strong tour's rider in the master's category races.

From your posts it sounds like your just enjoying riding but missing the weights a bit. You need to decide whether your going to get serious and race or not.

Good luck

 

[Carrera]

It's a strange situation. As I said, girls seem to like normal sized guys and definitely don't seem to go for the beefy look. However, I think what happens is this: Bodybuilders often develop an idea they are skinny when they no longer have arms that pop out from their lats. I ask people sometimes if they think I maybe got too thin and they all say, well, you look better. Despite that, I kind of feel light somehow. Much of it is in the mind, I guess.
There's a bit of ego on all sides here. There's an ego thing when you're out there riding, somebody comes whizzing past and then it's all about speed, endurance and how fit you are. In such cases, developed traps aren't worth a fig and just slow you down.
Then, when you're in a gym perhaps and you see someone pressing a decent weight, you also want to compete but then fitness isn't the factor that counts.
To be an all rounder or a specialist that is the question?

Why would you want to lose all of the muscle mass that you worked so hard for years to build up? I'm not suggesting that you hulk up to Ronnie Coleman's grotesque size or anything, but what is wrong with maintaining some of that? For us recreational, non-competitive riders it's not that important unless you make it so.

For what it's worth I always state a similar viewpoint to non-competitive bodybuilders and powerlifters. Let's face it, 95% of us aren't going to amount to jack **** in the competitive world (especially in BB & PL) unless we are willing to take massive doses of roids and other agents.

So for those of us who don't compete, don't race, don't care to be either Mr. Olympia or the next Lance Armstrong we're better off focusing on being a healthy all rounder. What good is it to train your butt off so you can do single max bench presses and squats with phenomenally heavy weight if you can't walk up a damned flight of stairs without getting winded? MOST powerlifters fit into that classification!

On the other side of the argument, why would anyone wish to be as gaunt and horrible looking as Michael Rasmussen? The guy looks like he has osteoperosis for God's sake.

Somewhere in the middle is room for people like you and I, Carrera. There's plenty of space between the two extremes for being fit and a little buff. <now if I could only achieve that!>

 

[Carrera]

That Thor guy is bigger than me. He's also a better cyclist than me. Not many guys of his size are as good as he is.

McEwan is not really a good example as he's about 5 foot nothing. How much does Thor or Boonen weight?

They might not be huge but at their particular height you'll find they have 10-20% more mass than either the climbers or the more in the middle type generalists.

--brett