Getting to 300 watts?

[DancenMacabre]

After reaching some of my goals recently I am super excited about riding. Now, stuff I thought was far fetched or entirely out of reach seems at least semi-possible. Yeah, confidence is a good thing

May as well be ambitious so here is my goal: 300 watt FTP.

I know from reading the big killing me thread (and it damn near killed me reading all those posts!!!!!) that there is a genetic limit to what people can do. The coach on the big thread said that 250 was the limit for many people and to get to 300 you had to have good genetics.

I guess genetics determine the upper limit for vo2max so it follows that your FTP can only be so high depending on potential genetic vo2max.

I don't know how good my genetics are but I just got a little over 200 watts for a full-blown 60 minute TT (confirmed on the trainer no less). This is maybe 4-5 months into my cycling career.

So what would it take to get to 300 watts?
Does the formula or training mix change?
Should you regularly check/test 5 minute power?
Add vo2max work if/when L4 power stalls?
Do I need more volume and/or higher CTL?

From what I read on these pages, people seem to suggest vo2max work when FTP stalls or appears to plateau. So far for me, no plateau or stalling, just small but steady increases in FT. This on a purely L3/L4/SST training diet of about 9-10 hrs~ week, TSS in the 600-700 vicinity, about 68-70 TSS/hr. I can up the training time per week a few hours, maybe to 14-15 (thanks to work furloughs I have more time, but less money - that's the tradefoff).

I'm no 60 kg ballerina so 300 watts, if I could get there wouldn't make me some sort of champ, but it would be pretty amazing and I bet could do OK in races

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...I'm no 60 kg ballerina so 300 watts, if I could get there wouldn't make me some sort of champ, but it would be pretty amazing and I bet could do OK in races

Yeah 5 watts per kg would be quite handy in races, especially pure hillclimbs as it represents near world class performance for a female cyclist. Very cool to think big and shoot high but as an analogy I think you'll appreciate it's a lot like a rock climber with a season of experience setting a goal of on sight flashing 5.13 (french 8a, 8a+ a' vue) leads. A very cool but aggressive goal that you might or might not reach but you'll only find out by trying.

And like the climbing goal it's very unlikely many women will reach an FTP of 5 w/kg without several to many years of consistent well focused training. Sure some genetically gifted folks or crossover athletes might reach either goal sooner and you could be one of them but most that get there do so with years of hard work.

From that standpoint there is no one simple training mix to take you there but you can be sure a sucessful path will include a lot of Tempo/SST/Threshold work with periods of VO2 Max work and as it's likely you'll also race there'll be anaerobic development and pure sprint workout as well as group riding and racing skills, tactics work, etc. along the way.

If 5w/kg and racing sucess is really a goal you want to chase then I strongly recommend hiring a professional coach who can help assess your strengths and weaknesses, keep you on track, adjust training plans based on: a deep understanding of exercise physiology, your specific needs and the unique demands of your target events.

Until you hire that coach I'd second frenchyge's advice to stick with what's working and what you enjoy and not start chasing magic bullets or training fads. Your goals are lofty, but who knows how far you'll go if you don't shoot high?

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Meek One]

Dave, good response as usual, but I think you misread his last sentence. He is NOT 60kg, if he were he thought he'd do well (5wts/kg), but even at his current wt(unknown) would still do ok in races with a 300ftp. This is what I think he meant.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Dave, good response as usual, but I think you misread his last sentence. He is NOT 60kg, if he were he thought he'd do well (5wts/kg), but even at his current wt(unknown) would still do ok in races with a 300ftp. This is what I think he meant.

Ooops, well spotted.

Dancen, the main point above is that I do think it's best to think in terms of watts/kg instead of an absolute power number like 300 watts. That and the profile tables should give you an idea of how aggressive your goal is (might be more like on sighting 12s) but I suspect 300 watts is still a pretty aggressive goal for most women.

-Dave

 

[DancenMacabre]

Yeah 5 watts per kg would be quite handy in races, especially pure hillclimbs as it represents near world class performance for a female cyclist. Very cool to think big and shoot high but as an analogy I think you'll appreciate it's a lot like a rock climber with a season of experience setting a goal of on sight flashing 5.13 (french 8a, 8a+ a' vue) leads. A very cool but aggressive goal that you might or might not reach but you'll only find out by trying.

And like the climbing goal it's very unlikely many women will reach an FTP of 5 w/kg without several to many years of consistent well focused training. Sure some genetically gifted folks or crossover athletes might reach either goal sooner and you could be one of them but most that get there do so with years of hard work.

From that standpoint there is no one simple training mix to take you there but you can be sure a sucessful path will include a lot of Tempo/SST/Threshold work with periods of VO2 Max work and as it's likely you'll also race there'll be anaerobic development and pure sprint workout as well as group riding and racing skills, tactics work, etc. along the way.

If 5w/kg and racing sucess is really a goal you want to chase then I strongly recommend hiring a professional coach who can help assess your strengths and weaknesses, keep you on track, adjust training plans based on: a deep understanding of exercise physiology, your specific needs and the unique demands of your target events.

Until you hire that coach I'd second frenchyge's advice to stick with what's working and what you enjoy and not start chasing magic bullets or training fads. Your goals are lofty, but who knows how far you'll go if you don't shoot high?

Good luck,
-Dave

Wow, now this is enthusiasm and encouragement I can appreciate

Like you say, why not set an aggressive goal? If I fail to reach it then I will have at least known I gave it my all.

Yikes for rock climbing, I'm a strictly 5.8 infrequent climbing gym person

Definitely need oodles of experience in the tactics/racing skills department but I know to get that I need to, um, race...

Totally wish I could get a pro coach like you suggest. That's the catch with these furloughs, more time to train alright, so I can contemplate this 300 watt insanity, but also a lot less money coming in. I suppose I can deal with the compromise and try this on a self-coached basis.

I have checked on pro coach rates and they are quite high (for my budget). The ones I hear are pretty good like Frank Overton are well over $100/month plus startup fees, etc. Me no can afford...

Think I probably ought to keep tabs on 5 minute power periodically to make sure I'm not at some vo2max plateau or limit.

A slight confession in order though - I'm not 60 kg, wish I was. I'm more of a proud 70kg girl these days - think ex-volleyball player if that helps - and I say proud b'cuz I was over 85kg when I first started on this website and got serious about biking a few months ago.

So 300 w for me, at present weight would be around 4.3ish w/kg. Not as impressive as 5w/kg, but still pretty good if I could reach it and enough to get some decent race results I hope.

Dave, good response as usual, but I think you misread his last sentence. He is NOT 60kg, if he were he thought he'd do well (5wts/kg), but even at his current wt(unknown) would still do ok in races with a 300ftp. This is what I think he meant.

Um, sorry but I'm no dude.

 

[gman0482]

Hey DM, looks like you are definitely on the right track, which is where I am slowly and hopefully looking to be at. I'm in the same boat as far as pro coaching goes, especially at this time, now that I've spent $3K+ within the last 2 months on my bike. Next investment, Powertap. For the winter, my KK power comp will do but ony for indoors.

Just wanted to say good job and good luck. I also think by sticking to this forum, reading all the threads and asking all the Q's, is as good as it gets to self-coaching. Everyone on here (like Dave and others) is more than great with their input to help out.

-Greg

 

[frenchyge]

I think a couple things need to be pointed out:
1) He's a she.
2) Ballerinas are closer to 40kgs than 60 (the female variety anyway)

On the question at hand, one never really knows how fast the improvement will come, nor how long it will continue. Some people enjoy setting a lofty goal and can still be satisfied with great results, while others get discouraged when improvement starts to level off and it looks like their goal may not be achievable.

I think ~4 watts per kg of lean body mass is possible by a majority of folks (males anyway... I don't train with many women), albeit with a high degree of focus and years of training. Reaching beyond that would be more selectively dependent on one's genetic resume, in my estimation.

In any case, a long-term goal like that is great, but keep in mind that it might be years in the making. It'll take many shorter term goals to remain motivated to persist in training for that length of time. I'd suggest that you formulate some shorter term goals which hold some personal sense of accomplishment. Wattage goals are nice, but are somewhat superficial in my mind -- like setting a bank account goal. Okay, you can produce 300w for an hour, but what can you really do with that? It's a means, rather than an end. Also, it's not the kind of thing that others in your life are going to relate to, share in your sense of accomplishment, or be inspired by....and there'll probably be times along the way when you'll need their support. Plus, it's fleeting... 3 months later that ability will be gone unless you keep training, but that's just a vicious cycle.

In summary, I guess I would encourage other types of goals for a newish rider. There are lots of great and inspiring things about cycling besides turning calories into heat at a high rate.

 

[gman0482]

What would you suggest for a more achievable training goal ? Before I start racing, I would like to set some goals I can complete on my own. One of them is hitting a certain FTP (once I figure out my current one, which I'm working on now). Could it be an LTHR goal ? or a TT goal ? Something like those ?

Thanks,
-Greg

 

[lanierb]

My response to this last post, and to the original poster as well, is to focus mainly on training goals instead of FTP goals. You can keep FTP goals in mind along the way, but who knows what you are capable of? If you train hard you will find out. And if you overdo it in search of a specific number, you might burn out/lose motivation.

I would suggest starting a high quality training regimen and slowly building up to a certain CTL (this is the power training forum after all) and holding that for a while to see what happens. Build the training around lots of FTP work and see where it leads you.

 

[DancenMacabre]

In any case, a long-term goal like that is great, but keep in mind that it might be years in the making.

So far...

130-->205w FT = 3 months
205-->300w = years?

Yikes! You talk about some non-linear progress. Guess I better get oh so cozy in the pain cave

Wattage goals are nice, but are somewhat superficial in my mind -- like setting a bank account goal. Okay, you can produce 300w for an hour, but what can you really do with that? It's a means, rather than an end.

Wait - this is a great problem to have. I mean let me have all this money sitting in the bank first and you betcha I'll come up with plenty to use it on. Yeap, a means to an end like you say. For me, how about it being a means to some good cat 3/4 placings, maybe even a win or two? That sounds pretty fun.

It'll take many shorter term goals to remain motivated to persist in training for that length of time. I'd suggest that you formulate some shorter term goals which hold some personal sense of accomplishment.

Gotta agree with you here. Looking at a 95 watt increase in FT by itself is kinda like staring up at a mountain. I think maybe 235 is a reasonable short term goal.

Hey DM, looks like you are definitely on the right track, which is where I am slowly and hopefully looking to be at. I'm in the same boat as far as pro coaching goes, especially at this time, now that I've spent $3K+ within the last 2 months on my bike. Next investment, Powertap. For the winter, my KK power comp will do but ony for indoors.

Just wanted to say good job and good luck. I also think by sticking to this forum, reading all the threads and asking all the Q's, is as good as it gets to self-coaching. Everyone on here (like Dave and others) is more than great with their input to help out.

-Greg

I am right there with you on the amount of money I've thrown into this habit, um, hobby recently. With the job situation what it is, I cannot afford to throw even more cash at it via a coach, much as that might be helpful.

Frankly however, I am not super impressed with some of these coaches I have talked to locally. One prominent local coach actually, said I ought to do strictly L1/L2 work...........all winter long. I was like why? Since when are level 3 and 4 non-sustainable. He says basically 'because I am the coach and that's what I tell my clients to do all winter'. Great rationale, no?

No way I am sitting on the trainer all winter noodling around at 120 watts for hours at a time. I dunno but it seems some people, especially women I have to say, put a whole lotta faith in coaches without asking some hard questions.

Anyhow I thought to myself, sheesh, I get way, WAY better advice than that on cyclingforums from some cool peeps, and it isn't costing me hundreds/month.

May as well launch my own little n = 1 experiment here and see how far I can take this FTP thing.

Thanks for the encouragement

 

[doctorSpoc]

DancenMacabre - the best thing you can do for your cycling fitness at this early stage is get on your bike as much as you can and put in as much temp and hard tempo (SST) as you can.. read, volume... you might want to join a club and most importantly have fun with it.. do some group rides etc. i honestly wouldn't start thinking about all this structure until 1-2 years into your training. what you really want to do is build your aerobic fitness/engine at this early stage. your fitness will increase very quickly at this early stage so it will be lots of fun to see your improvements.. but you just don't need all that structure at this point you need volume. after a while improvement will slow down.. then you might want to start thinking about introducing some more structure.

 

[gman0482]

I've read that the 1st thing to start training on is cadence. Most of the winter should be focused on high and long rpm's, and after that's built up and trained (mostly in the high 90's to 100+'s) then I should focus on power. Does that sound right?

 

[frenchyge]

Wait - this is a great problem to have. I mean let me have all this money sitting in the bank first and you betcha I'll come up with plenty to use it on. Yeap, a means to an end like you say. For me, how about it being a means to some good cat 3/4 placings, maybe even a win or two? That sounds pretty fun.

Okay, then make those high placings the goals, rather than the FTP figure. Your FTP will sort itself out while you are working towards the high placings. The reason I suggest you think about it this way rather than the other way 'round is so you don't overlook the high cost (physical and mental) of striving towards those goals. Don't become a miser who wants to save a million dollars so that he can enjoy his life, only to grow old and die with $900k, having sacrificed the joy of his life in pursuit of the goal. Make the goal becoming an accomplished cyclist (or person, whatever) and you'll have a good chance to be successful whether your FTP ever reaches 300w or even 250w. If high placings are your goals, then start racing and learn what preparation it will really take to achieve them. You might find that chasing an FTP number is not all that it's cracked up to be.

For me it started as a century charity ride (the MS 150) which seemed like a tremendous feat when I signed up for it, and carried a big sense of accomplishment, benefitted others, and impressed friends and family. After that I wanted to better my previous year's time, and eventually sought bigger and more challenging rides. In training for those rides, I found that I was starting to keep up with, then challenge, some of the racers on the the club training rides around town and I was eventually recruited onto a startup race team. Yada, yada, yada.... win a race....yada, yada.... state championship, upgrade, etc. Sure my FTP has improved a lot during that time, but that's never been a goal in itself. I cherish every FTP bump like it will be my last.

When I look at the "It's killing me but....." thread from a big picture, I see a person who saw a lot of improvement, set a far reaching goal, continued to improve, started really enjoying his ability to ride fast and far, and then (because of the pressure of that goal) had to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind to finally reach it. Then, once the goal was achieved.... he was toast. Gone.

 

[lanierb]

I'm with frenchyge on this one. Wattage goals on the trainer won't keep your interest very long. (Nor will it impress your friends when you brag about holding 300w for an hour on the trainer. They'll just think you are nuts. )

 

[gman0482]

I'm looking for this thread but can't find it. Can you post a link to it? (It's killing me but...)

Thanks,
-Greg

 

[daveryanwyoming]

http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/314849-its-killing-me-but.html

 

[DancenMacabre]

Okay, then make those high placings the goals, rather than the FTP figure. Your FTP will sort itself out while you are working towards the high placings. The reason I suggest you think about it this way rather than the other way 'round is so you don't overlook the high cost (physical and mental) of striving towards those goals. Don't become a miser who wants to save a million dollars so that he can enjoy his life, only to grow old and die with $900k, having sacrificed the joy of his life in pursuit of the goal.

No way, I would spend that cool 900k long before my last days

Um, I know what you are saying here, I do really. The thing with high placings of course is that sure you can wheelsuck for 99% of a crit but in a hilly road race or TT, you are going to have the physical prowess and good to get the job done. Looking at a 4+/wkg FT I'd think my chances would be favorable in plenty of cat 3/4 events, assuming I was sensible about tactics and strategy.

Make the goal becoming an accomplished cyclist (or person, whatever) and you'll have a good chance to be successful whether your FTP ever reaches 300w or even 250w. If high placings are your goals, then start racing and learn what preparation it will really take to achieve them. You might find that chasing an FTP number is not all that it's cracked up to be.

For me it started as a century charity ride (the MS 150) which seemed like a tremendous feat when I signed up for it, and carried a big sense of accomplishment, benefitted others, and impressed friends and family. After that I wanted to better my previous year's time, and eventually sought bigger and more challenging rides. In training for those rides, I found that I was starting to keep up with, then challenge, some of the racers on the the club training rides around town and I was eventually recruited onto a startup race team. Yada, yada, yada.... win a race....yada, yada.... state championship, upgrade, etc. Sure my FTP has improved a lot during that time, but that's never been a goal in itself. I cherish every FTP bump like it will be my last.

Easy for you to say with a championship and a bunch of race wins under your belt !!!!!

Goals are good. I would like to reach or come close to attaining, my potential in this sport. I'm willing to work super hard to do it at that.

When I look at the "It's killing me but....." thread from a big picture, I see a person who saw a lot of improvement, set a far reaching goal, continued to improve, started really enjoying his ability to ride fast and far, and then (because of the pressure of that goal) had to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind to finally reach it. Then, once the goal was achieved.... he was toast. Gone.

In fairness to the old dude, I mean he did some great stuff and hey, he was like 65+. I can see where he might wanna fade into obscurity a bit. I'm nowhere near that age

For some people they just wanna climb the mountain you know? Set a super high goal and achieve it, then maybe do something else. That seems equally valid to sticking with a sport for years and year. Different motivations for people.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/314849-its-killing-me-but.html

No argument there Dave. It is one hella thread.

Thing is as I have reread it (and gotten more advice from you guys) is why was the older guy doing so much vo2max work so soon? And even L6 stuff too?

Everything I read from you fast guys tells me that L4/SST is the ticket to boosting FT. Meanwhile L5 is for boosting vo2max, usually when FT stalls, and also some for specific races. While L6 work is almost definitely solely for racing benefit. Yet he sure did a lot of this type of riding (L5/L6) at the expense of other training like SST I think. THe result speaks for itself but I wonder if it could have been more optimal/ideal and also, with less pain.

FInally it came across as though his volume was not very high at all. More power to him for reaching his goal on a lower training volume but my volume is already higher and I seem to get fitter as I train more.

His coach comes across as a super sharp dude and explained stuff with great detail, not just 'cause I said so' that some people use. Only thing that I didn't get about his training MO was the dislike for solid L3 work. For me it is a big staple and a low-pain/high reward part of training & CTL building.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...No argument there Dave. It is one hella thread.

Thing is as I have reread it (and gotten more advice from you guys) is why was the older guy doing so much vo2max work so soon? And even L6 stuff too?

Everything I read from you fast guys tells me that L4/SST is the ticket to boosting FT. Meanwhile L5 is for boosting vo2max, usually when FT stalls, and also some for specific races. While L6 work is almost definitely solely for racing benefit. Yet he sure did a lot of this type of riding (L5/L6) at the expense of other training like SST I think. THe result speaks for itself but I wonder if it could have been more optimal/ideal and also, with less pain.

FInally it came across as though his volume was not very high at all. More power to him for reaching his goal on a lower training volume but my volume is already higher and I seem to get fitter as I train more.

Actually I posted that in response to Greg who was looking for that link.

But since you bring it up, Tyson was doing a lot of L5 and L6 work and but RDO time and again had to get him back on track with L4 work and even had to keep reminding him to back off from the 100-105% L4 work to the more sustainable 91% variety. The early to mid pages of that thread are full of posts trying to get Tyson to back off and do higher volumes of solid SST/Threshold work and advised him to back off from the high end stuff he wanted to do.

Lydiard really did have it right, our bread and butter is sustainable power and that's best built through steady work that's sufficiently difficult to encourage adaptations but sufficiently easy that we can do a lot of it during a session and in subsequent sessions. Or in his words: "train don't strain"

The L5/L6 work can be great to change things up, to break through plateau's and to provide important icing on the cake for mass start racing but without a solid base of sustainable power that high end work doesn't mean much.

-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

For some people they just wanna climb the mountain you know? Set a super high goal and achieve it, then maybe do something else. That seems equally valid to sticking with a sport for years and year. Different motivations for people.

Sure it is. It's just tragic when someone spends so much time longing for the peak that it sours them to the beautiful scenery all around them in the meadow.

 

[gman0482]

Well put. Right now my goal (before my ultimate goal of being in a race) is to be able to breathe easier and to lower my LTHR. Not exactly sure how severe of a goal that is, but I think power is secondary for now. Unless you guys think otherwise .

-Greg