Girl=Pastel

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Sascha Bates, Apr 5, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sascha Bates

    Sascha Bates Guest

    I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am ready
    to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something nifty
    and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm currently
    riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD design.

    So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one more powder blue or lavender bike, I will vomit.
    I can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they never
    look clean.

    So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I can't even think about one of
    their bikes since they seem to start in the 50cm range. Yuck. I hope someone from the cycling
    companies takes a look at these news groups once in a while. I'd like them to understand that just
    because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or yellow, or that really nifty
    maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago. I'd even settle for that Trek grey, red and black.

    Ok. I feel better...needed to rant. But I'm still not thinking I want to buy a bike as long as
    pastel is my only choice. It may be shallow, but I'm the one who'll have to look at it for the
    next 10 years!

    Sascha (cranky cyclist)
     
    Tags:


  2. In article <[email protected]>, "Sascha Bates"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    > ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something
    > nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm
    > currently riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD design.
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    > bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one more powder blue or lavender bike, I will
    > vomit. I can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they
    > never look clean.
    >
    > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I can't even think about one
    > of their bikes since they seem to start in the 50cm range. Yuck. I hope someone from the cycling
    > companies takes a look at these news groups once in a while. I'd like them to understand that
    > just because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or yellow, or that really
    > nifty maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago. I'd even settle for that Trek grey, red
    > and black.
    >
    > Ok. I feel better...needed to rant. But I'm still not thinking I want to buy a bike as long as
    > pastel is my only choice. It may be shallow, but I'm the one who'll have to look at it for the
    > next 10 years!
    >
    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)

    I hear ya, but I don't have your problem because I'm average height. I hate pink anyways, maybe if
    you're on Team Telekom but aside from that, yeccch. I hate pastels. Did you not like the Treks? I
    saw one at my LBS, one of those women's bikes specifically made for small women like you, they even
    have brakes designed for small hands. And the colors were not pastel, it was a normal paint job. Did
    you give it a try? I guess it could also be a money thing, I don't know how expensive they are.

    This reminds me of the time I was in a Warner Brother's store (we don't have them in canada that I
    know of ) and I wanted to get a t-shirt with Daffy Duck (my favorite) or maybe the singing frog or
    even the Coyote! But all the girls and women's t-shirts had Petunia pig or Tweety Bird. I hate
    Tweety Bird. Even when i was a kid I hated Tweety. So I looked at guy's t-shirts but they didn't
    have a t-shirt with Daffy Duck in any size that would fit me. But why do they assume all females
    like Tweety or Petunia pig!

    In the meantime, you could try sending your rants to bike companies- tell them what you think! Email
    or call customer service. It can't hurt. And it's not shallow at all, it's your money and you're
    right, you have to ride it and look at it!
     
  3. Cori

    Cori Guest

    Sascha Bates wrote:
    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    > ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something
    > nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm
    > currently riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD design.
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    > bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one more powder blue or lavender bike, I will
    > vomit. I can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they
    > never look clean.
    >
    > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I can't even think about one
    > of their bikes since they seem to start in the 50cm range. Yuck. I hope someone from the cycling
    > companies takes a look at these news groups once in a while. I'd like them to understand that
    > just because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or yellow, or that really
    > nifty maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago. I'd even settle for that Trek grey, red
    > and black.
    >
    > Ok. I feel better...needed to rant. But I'm still not thinking I want to buy a bike as long as
    > pastel is my only choice. It may be shallow, but I'm the one who'll have to look at it for the
    > next 10 years!
    >
    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)
    >
    >
    >

    There's a woman specific Specialized Allez Vita that's maroon with burgundy zebra. Very nice. Or you
    could do what I did and get a Specialized Sequoia. Silver.

    Cori
     
  4. Because woman get the cool clothes and shoes.

    "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema
    for
    > three years and am ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and
    > looking for something nifty and attractive out
    there.
    > I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm currently riding a 43cm bike and I
    > like the WSD design.
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who
    says
    > that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one
    > more powder blue or lavender bike, I will vomit.
    I
    > can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they never
    > look clean.
    >
    > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I
    can't
    > even think about one of their bikes since they seem to start in the 50cm range. Yuck. I hope
    > someone from the cycling companies takes a look at these news groups once in a while. I'd like
    > them to understand that just because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or
    yellow,
    > or that really nifty maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago.
    I'd
    > even settle for that Trek grey, red and black.
    >
    > Ok. I feel better...needed to rant. But I'm still not thinking I want to buy a bike as long as
    > pastel is my only choice. It may be shallow, but
    I'm
    > the one who'll have to look at it for the next 10 years!
    >
    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)
     
  5. > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who
    says
    > that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one
    > more powder blue or lavender bike, I will vomit.
    I
    > can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they never
    > look clean.

    Funny thing there- many guys wish *they* could have a bike with the paint job found on the 2300WSD.
    It's almost the same color as the original OCLV. And the 2200WSD? Hardly pastel... very white white
    with dark-red details. The only one that might qualify as close to pastel might be the 2000WSD.

    But the thing is, no matter what color TREK chooses, many will wish it was something else. Doesn't
    matter if it's men's or women's. The safest thing might be to have both bikes the same color, but
    that causes considerable confusion on the sales floor, with customers potentially getting set up
    with an incorrect bike.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema
    for
    > three years and am ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and
    > looking for something nifty and attractive out
    there.
    > I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm currently riding a 43cm bike and I
    > like the WSD design.
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who
    says
    > that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one
    > more powder blue or lavender bike, I will vomit.
    I
    > can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they never
    > look clean.
    >
    > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I
    can't
    > even think about one of their bikes since they seem to start in the 50cm range. Yuck. I hope
    > someone from the cycling companies takes a look at these news groups once in a while. I'd like
    > them to understand that just because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or
    > yellow, or that really nifty maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago. I'd even settle for
    > that Trek grey, red and black.
    >
    > Ok. I feel better...needed to rant. But I'm still not thinking I want to buy a bike as long as
    > pastel is my only choice. It may be shallow, but
    I'm
    > the one who'll have to look at it for the next 10 years!
    >
    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>, "one of the six billion"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema
    > for
    > > three years and am ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and
    > > looking for something nifty and attractive out
    > there.
    > > I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm currently riding a 43cm bike and I
    > > like the WSD design.
    > >
    > > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE
    > > tell me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who

    > > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I
    > can't

    > Because woman get the cool clothes and shoes.

    Mortifying confession time: I wear a boring red jersey that I got a good deal on, but several times
    I have gone over the jersey racks at some local shop, found what I thought was a pretty nice jersey,
    only to see it was another Sugoi women's jersey.

    And I know what you're thinking, buy it anyways, but I really hope the cut wouldn't fit my upper
    body properly, and I'm not willing to find out.

    -RjC.
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  7. "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    > ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something
    > nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm
    > currently riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD

    Fuji does an Ace SE in 43cm with no bias to colour. But then, you're probably aiming higher
    than that.

    Wish I could help you out. I know Jamis does bikes (in not too objectionable colours) from about
    47cm (small enough to warrant a 26" front/700C back combination on that model of the Aurora,
    e.g.) so you might want to give that a try. I have a 2001 Aurora which I like, but then, I'm not
    very sporty.

    & all the lycra goddesses /I/ see seem to be riding non-pastel bikes.

    but if you've got the cash you could always go for this:

    http://www.merlinbike.com/english/bikes/cielo.html

    I'm sure the 'custom' option would do you fine. & looks pretty flash with a 'make your motorized
    friends faint with shock' pricetag.

    (me, I'd probably break the bike after a ride--not because I'm that strong a rider, but because I'm
    just that fat...)

    -Luigi *I* et all the pies.
     
  8. The Bianchi ML3 Al Donna Mirage comes in Bianchi Celeste or ... bright red. So not all are girlie
    pastels :)

    Cheers, helen s (my bianchi is celeste & yellow)

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

    Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
    ~~~~~~~~~~
     
  9. Jchase

    Jchase Guest

    Sascha Bates wrote:

    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    > bike for crying out loud!

    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)

    Huh?- I just scanned a local shop's online catalogue, and found woman's road bikes in silver, blue,
    and red/silver (including Trek)- couldn't find any pink bikes except in very lowend price ranges.
    Then I checked Terry's site and the only unusual color I found was "orchid", which is a nice enough
    color, and definitely NOT "pink".

    I do admit, however that the MTB's tend to have the more outrageous schemes.
     
  10. Rick

    Rick Guest

    "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    > bike for crying out loud! If I have to look at one more powder blue or lavender bike, I will
    > vomit. I can't say I'm terribly attracted to white either. White bikes are like white cars--they
    > never look clean.
    >
    >
    > Sascha (cranky cyclist)

    Try Cannondale. Even though there yearly models come in two colors choice, you can order a custom
    paint job.
     
  11. Gary Smiley

    Gary Smiley Guest

    In this brainwashed country, they just assume that boys like Daffy Duck and girls like Petunia Pig.
    But it goes way far beyond that- look at how other things are marketed- they know what the public
    will "like" years ahead of time- like music, cars, and even war.

    Marlene Blanshay wrote:

    > This reminds me of the time I was in a Warner Brother's store (we don't have them in canada that I
    > know of ) and I wanted to get a t-shirt with Daffy Duck (my favorite) or maybe the singing frog or
    > even the Coyote! But all the girls and women's t-shirts had Petunia pig or Tweety Bird. I hate
    > Tweety Bird. Even when i was a kid I hated Tweety. So I looked at guy's t-shirts but they didn't
    > have a t-shirt with Daffy Duck in any size that would fit me. But why do they assume all females
    > like Tweety or Petunia pig!
     
  12. Sascha

    Sascha Guest

    Ok, so I exaggerated a little on the pink thing. It was a symbolic color for all of the powder
    blues, etc I'm running into. For instance, Terry's road bikes this year are french blue, pearl
    white, blue lagoon, etc... Trek bikes are cumulus blue (read sky blue), pearl white (with some red
    trim, it's true), and coastal blue. There's not a primary color among them. I have looked at the
    Specialized Allez Vita and it does have the nifty red and black design. I just feel very limited in
    my options. I've seen yellow treks on bike rides...where are they now?

    And while I appreciate the person who suggested the Bianchi bike, I read their philosphy about the
    color blue they use, but, IMO, that philosophy doesn't make the color any less unattractive.

    I guess maybe this is the year for blue bikes. I see a lot of the non-wsd models that are blue as
    well. Guess I should keep my Carema another year as it's a very nice, non-pastel, blue. Funny, the
    only color I've really see that I liked was the new Carema which is kind of a bright lime green with
    creme accents. Unfortunately, I don't like the components offered on that bike and don't feel that
    REI did a good job fitting me last time. I watched my boyfriend at the time get fitted for his Trek
    at a local shop and we actually spent the whole afternoon there fitting and accessorizing.

    I did just check out the Cannondales, and the R2000 Fem triple is pretty spiffy looking. A couple of
    the others are pretty spiffy too! I didn't see an MSRP but I've got a pretty good feel after window
    shopping for what components go on which price range of bike.

    I appreciate everyones input and help with my frustration.

    Sascha

    "jchase" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Sascha Bates wrote:
    >
    > > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on
    looking.
    > > Can someone PLEASE tell me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who
    says
    > > that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink bike for crying out
    loud!
    >
    > > Sascha (cranky cyclist)
    >
    > Huh?- I just scanned a local shop's online catalogue, and found woman's road bikes in silver,
    > blue, and red/silver (including Trek)- couldn't find any pink bikes except in very lowend price
    > ranges. Then I checked Terry's site and the only unusual color I found was "orchid", which is a
    > nice enough color, and definitely NOT "pink".
    >
    > I do admit, however that the MTB's tend to have the more outrageous
    schemes.
     
  13. John Everett

    John Everett Guest

    On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:41:00 -0600, "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    >ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something
    >nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. (snip)
    >Can someone PLEASE tell me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only?

    How much are you prepared to spend? I have a friend who has a petite custom Waterford that fits her
    to a tee. In addition is has one of the coolest paint jobs I've seen. She designed the paint scheme
    herself and Waterford applied it.

    jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3
     
  14. "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    > ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for something
    > nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm
    > currently riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD design.
    >
    > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE tell
    > me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have a pink
    > bike for crying out loud!

    See if you can find a Marinoni dealer nearby. You can order off-the-shelf sizes with custom paint
    and chrome, and for a bit extra they'll make a frame to measure. You can choose between Shimano
    or Campagnolo as well.

    Of course, if Marinoni "made to measure" is like the LAST mtm suit I bought :-(

    > > Sascha
    > (cranky cyclist)

    Maybe they're just pulling your chain ?

    (while we're punning around)
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (mark
    freedman) wrote:

    > "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema for three years and am
    > > ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and looking for
    > > something nifty and attractive out there. I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso
    > > besides. I'm currently riding a 43cm bike and I like the WSD design.
    > >
    > > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE
    > > tell me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who says that because I'm a chick, I have to have
    > > a pink bike for crying out loud!
    >
    > See if you can find a Marinoni dealer nearby. You can order off-the-shelf sizes with custom
    > paint and chrome, and for a bit extra they'll make a frame to measure. You can choose between
    > Shimano or Campagnolo as well.
    >
    > Of course, if Marinoni "made to measure" is like the LAST mtm suit I bought :-(
    >
    I should have suggested Marinoni- custom made AND you can get any color you want. In fact, I have
    yet to see two with the same paint job!

    When I bought my bike a couple of years ago, marinoni was one of the bikes I tried and liked,
    although I ultimately got the GT, which I really love.
     
  16. If price is not an issue, you can order a TREK 5200 through their Project One program and have a
    choice of about 12 different paint jobs, most of which are definitely not "powder" colors or
    light blue.

    For what it's worth, the TREK 2200WSD... the one that's white with dark-red contrast elements... the
    one that has a color that is most definitely not "girly"... doesn't sell. Women either buy the bike
    above or below, because they don't like the color. If you're a manufacturer, sometimes you just
    can't win!

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
     
  17. Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > In article <[email protected]>, "one of the six billion"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> "Sascha Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >> > I've been thinking about a new road bike. I've had my REI Novara Carema
    >> for
    >> > three years and am ready to upgrade to something a little spiffier. So, I've been shopping and
    >> > looking for something nifty and attractive out
    >> there.
    >> > I'm petite at 5'1" and have a pretty short torso besides. I'm currently riding a 43cm bike and
    >> > I like the WSD design.
    >> >
    >> > So I looked at Terry bikes, I looked at Trek bikes and I kept on looking. Can someone PLEASE
    >> > tell me why all WSD bikes come in pastel only? Who
    >
    >> > So, the flip side of this is, why do guys get all the cool colors? I
    >> can't
    >
    >> Because woman get the cool clothes and shoes.
    >
    > Mortifying confession time: I wear a boring red jersey that I got a good deal on, but several
    > times I have gone over the jersey racks at some local shop, found what I thought was a pretty nice
    > jersey, only to see it was another Sugoi women's jersey.
    >
    > And I know what you're thinking, buy it anyways, but I really hope the cut wouldn't fit my upper
    > body properly, and I'm not willing to find out.
    >
    > -RjC.

    Go to Cheapskates, consignment bike stuff at Dunbar and 16th, they always have some jerseys
    in the back.
     
  18. On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:11:44 -0400, Sascha wrote:

    > I guess maybe this is the year for blue bikes. I see a lot of the non-wsd models that are blue as
    > well. Guess I should keep my Carema another year as it's a very nice, non-pastel, blue. Funny, the
    > only color I've really see that I liked was the new Carema which is kind of a bright lime green
    > with creme accents. Unfortunately, I don't like the components offered on that bike and don't feel
    > that REI did a good job fitting me last time. I watched my boyfriend at the time get fitted for
    > his Trek at a local shop and we actually spent the whole afternoon there fitting and
    > accessorizing.
    >
    > I did just check out the Cannondales, and the R2000 Fem triple is pretty spiffy looking. A couple
    > of the others are pretty spiffy too! I didn't see an MSRP but I've got a pretty good feel after
    > window shopping for what components go on which price range of bike.
    >
    > I appreciate everyones input and help with my frustration.

    Go for a custom, and get a perfect fit, your choice in components, and the color you love. There are
    many fine custom builders who can give you whatever you like. If you want something you'll never see
    coming at you down the road, feel a little adventurous, and also want the assurance of knowing the
    builder has a great track record with womens' frames, you might consider Chas Roberts in the UK. Or,
    I'm sure you'll find an excellent builder fairly close to where you live.
     
  19. Sascha wrote:
    >just because I'm a woman, I don't want a pastel bike. I want orange or yellow, or that really nifty
    >maroon that the men's Allez was a few years ago.

    Sascha, I remember seeing a Bianchi Eros Donna last year in a really nice shade of racing yellow.
    Maybe those are still around. Don't blame you for not wanting the girly colors-a lot of the women I
    know who cycle don't, either. HTH. Cheers,

    Tzahi Ben-Moshe

    Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
     
  20. Steve Palincsar <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Go for a custom, and get a perfect fit, your choice in components, and the color you love. There
    > are many fine custom builders who can give you whatever you like. If you want something you'll
    > never see coming at you down the road, feel a little adventurous, and also want the assurance of
    > knowing the builder has a great track record with womens' frames, you might consider Chas Roberts
    > in the UK. Or, I'm sure you'll find an excellent builder fairly close to where you live.

    Or, if you have an idea of a stock bike you like and a shop that will fit you well, and just hate
    the color, buy the bike and get it custom painted. Powdercoating is simple and probably not too
    expensive.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...