Giro D'Italia 2008 : Stage 21 - June 1st : Cesano Maderno => Milano (ITT), 28.5 km

[RdBiker]

But why did US Postal in an era of systematic doping never have a failed test in or out of competition and then when riders leave the team they fail dope tests. Contador is a rider i would have liked 10yrs ago like as he is a climber but the whole Armstrong, Bruyneel, Astana, Sainz, Puerto, anymore... It stinks.

I've understood that atleast the top guys were working with Doctor Ferrari. He doesn't get paid all that money for nothing and I've also understood that he is one of the best in the world at beating doping tests. That might explain why the people under his supervision didn't get caught but when they moved to another team and doped without him they got caught...

 

[Denia]

Denia, I wouldn't bother trying to argue a point, you have journo's, amateur riders and some couch potatoes on here, most of which would get blown out of the back within 10k's on a GT, yet are experts in the field

I agree, people on here have developed such polarised opinions that any attempt to demonstrate that shades of grey rather than black and white are the order of the day is doomed to fail. The same hatred towards the "opposition" can be found across most sports. If another team succeeds it must be because they cheat. If they are dominant it is because they are in collusion with the authorities, the referees, the bookmakers or the pharmacists - something their own team. of course, would never do. Sport is corrupt, why be hypocritical and turn one rider into a hate figure while supporting his equally guilty rivals?

 

[TheDarkLord]

I agree, people on here have developed such polarised opinions that any attempt to demonstrate that shades of grey rather than black and white are the order of the day is doomed to fail. The same hatred towards the "opposition" can be found across most sports. If another team succeeds it must be because they cheat. If they are dominant it is because they are in collusion with the authorities, the referees, the bookmakers or the pharmacists - something their own team. of course, would never do. Sport is corrupt, why be hypocritical and turn one rider into a hate figure while supporting his equally guilty rivals?

If it was a level playing field with everyone being treated equally by the governing authority, then it is ok, and there wouldn't be any opposition to any particular team other than personal likes and dislikes. But that is not the way things actually are...

 

[RdBiker]

disagree,

Brajkovic
Horner
Gusev
Colom

etc etc etc

But where were they when the road went up? (Well some of them weren't even in Italy but the ones who were) Atleast on the stages I watched Leipheimer was dropped pretty quickly and then when one of the favourites attacked Klöden was spit out of the back. Contador was completely alone on most of the climbs and he could have lost the Giro on one of them (can't remember the name but the one where Ricco gained about 30secs and Di Luca a little bit less)
Klöden actually reminded me of himself in the Tour last year. Although he could keep up a little longer. Contador instead had Popo to drive him to the base of the last climb - and the first 5Ks up. And then Leipheimer could keep up with him and a group of five to ten top riders until Rasmussen attacked. That is the kind of support I'm talking about.

 

[RdBiker]

If it was a level playing field with everyone being treated equally by the governing authority, then it is ok, and there wouldn't be any opposition to any particular team other than personal likes and dislikes. But that is not the way things actually are...

Do we know that for sure? I mean we can be pretty sure everyone in the peloton dopes (and that is why I don't understand why people believe that Millar is clean anymore than Contador is) but is there some hard evidence about bribery or something like that? I atleast haven't seen any real stuff about that so I'd gladly read about that if you or anyone else knows some place to find it.

 

[Denia]

Others with more inside information such as cyclingheroes (where is he anyway?) can add to this: but the collusion is between JB and UCI. Labs usually do not know whom they are testing. They just report the test results to the UCI who then do whatever they want with it. So, it is not so much as JB having some magic potion that others don't have, as it is with the ability to dope without fear of being caught. There have been umpteen threads on this subject several months back... The best evidence for continuing collusion is the way in which McQuaid has spoken up in favor of Contador being clean, etc. in spite of the possible link to Operation Puerto. At the end of last Tour, Contador even offered his DNA to prove that it wasn't his blood in the OP blood bag labeled A.C. Then, this year, when the Spanish authorities announced that riders could volunteer DNA to clear their names, we didn't exactly see him come forward to take the offer. In spite of all this, UCI is heavily behind him. Why? Why are they persecuting other riders to the point of destruction and choosing to help a chosen few, many of whom are associated with the Hog?

A good point but the UCI, like any organisation, is subject to changes in personnel and to conflicts of opinion, disgruntled staff etc. etc. McQuaid and JB may or may not have some form of agreement but I don't buy that it would remain a secret for 8+ years. Too many people would need to be involved in the conspiracy and selfish interest would ensure someone would have blown the whistle by now.

I appreciate the argument has been done to death and I stress, once again, I'm not a doping apologist or in denial as to its widespread use. Nor do I know anything about PED programs or the inner workings of the UCI. Perhaps it's time to debate something else? I'm done on this one.

 

[TheDarkLord]

Do we know that for sure? I mean we can be pretty sure everyone in the peloton dopes (and that is why I don't understand why people believe that Millar is clean anymore than Contador is) but is there some hard evidence about bribery or something like that? I atleast haven't seen any real stuff about that so I'd gladly read about that if you or anyone else knows some place to find it.

I think one person who can point to real evidence would be cyclingheroes.

 

[hawkeye87]

But where were they when the road went up?

Both Colom and Kloden were with Contador long enough for him to have good enough legs to manage the rest. Years ago under other JB squads, even Lance had to face his competition, near the latter part of the race, alone.

 

[thoughtforfood]

I appreciate the argument has been done to death and I stress, once again, I'm not a doping apologist or in denial as to its widespread use. Nor do I know anything about PED programs or the inner workings of the UCI. Perhaps it's time to debate something else? I'm done on this one.

Well, then go debate something else, that was my point all along. What was yours now? Oh yea, you are happy Contadope won....well good for you and Spain. It appears that your gynecologists have examined the vaginas of many of your riders, and are satsified that there were not problems.

As to morons like ad9898, well, there is no accounting for willfull ignorance. Our society is full of people like you.

 

[missile]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!

I've read posts in the past that you invite opinions other than your own to post in these forums. That the people on this forum invite and encourage open debate, but as soon as anyone does post an opinion you don't agree with, you invite them to go elsewhere and insult them.

This is why I don't post very often here, not that I agree with them or disagree with you, but I don't care for the way people with differing opinions are treated as though they are stupid morons and the more common posters have the answer to all things cycling.

 

[thoughtforfood]

This is why I don't post very often here,

Keep up the good work...

My point was that if you come here and ***** about the things posted, then go somewhere else. IF you want to debate the issue, well now that is another matter entirely. Please, feel free to do so.

 

[missile]

Keep up the good work...

My point was that if you come here and ***** about the things posted, then go somewhere else. IF you want to debate the issue, well now that is another matter entirely. Please, feel free to do so.

as I started out...

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

THE CIRCLE JERK CAN CONTINUE WITHOUT ME!!

You guys are actually pretty boring usually, I hadn't even peaked in over a week...Yawn.

 

[ad9898]

Well, then go debate something else, that was my point all along. What was yours now? Oh yea, you are happy Contadope won....well good for you and Spain. It appears that your gynecologists have examined the vaginas of many of your riders, and are satsified that there were not problems.

As to morons like ad9898, well, there is no accounting for willfull ignorance. Our society is full of people like you.

Lol.... you see Denia, the mentality of what your up against, just read this reasoned debate above, absolute utter ****.

 

[thoughtforfood]

as I started out...

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

THE CIRCLE JERK CAN CONTINUE WITHOUT ME!!

You guys are actually pretty boring usually, I hadn't even peaked in over a week...Yawn.

Oh... we will miss you and your tiny mental penis....

 

[thoughtforfood]

Lol.... you see Denia, the mentality of what your up against, just read this reasoned debate above, absolute utter ****.

I do however find your avatar appropriate.

 

[thoughtforfood]

Lol.... you see Denia, the mentality of what your up against, just read this reasoned debate above, absolute utter ****.

BTW you do realize Fuentes is a gyneocologist....right?

 

[hawkeye87]

Lol.... you see Denia, the mentality of what your up against, just read this reasoned debate above, absolute utter ****.

Kudos ad9898 on your avatar. It's perfect for you.

I had started a lengthy response and lost it but suffice it to say that a lot of the negativity you read here is disappointment that cycling is not clean and does not appear to be headed that way.

So long as groups of riders, SDs or team managers continue to find success using the old methods of doping that are largely successful, we will not have a clean pelaton.

I find the spin that Bruyneel passed off on the media for the Giro to be absolutely sick. It has been made even worse as those media outlets (mostly in the U.S. but some in the U.K.) have not only swallowed it up, but repeat it like a mantra every chance they get.

How probable do you think it is that a team that only had 1 weeks notice turns around and wins a Grand Tour and, if not for the highly suspicious CSF team, would have won the team competition too?

But we don't need to test Alberto Contador, we already know he's clean. Just ask Pat McQuaid of the UCI. He declared Contador was clean more than a month ago. He's never declared that about any other rider in recent memory but he has the inside scoop on Astana's inner workings. Wouldn't you find that fishy if the head of the organization set to certify testing singles out one rider as clean?

It's impossible to prove that a rider is clean. You can show the lack of negative tests or blood values. But, the fact is, none of those have been made public. Only CSC published results and that has been more than a year ago now. They have seemed to have gone underground with this as well.

 

[Denia]

Well, then go debate something else, that was my point all along. What was yours now? Oh yea, you are happy Contadope won....well good for you and Spain. It appears that your gynecologists have examined the vaginas of many of your riders, and are satsified that there were not problems.

As to morons like ad9898, well, there is no accounting for willfull ignorance. Our society is full of people like you.

No, that was part of my point. The other part was to question the hypocrisy of the AC haters who slam him for doping while supporting his rivals and to ask why it was okay to support Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Hamiltion, Vinokourov, Landis etc. yet demonize Armstrong. You say Armstrong's speech about "not believing in miracles" makes you sick but isn't that what the rest of them have effectively said? Haven't all of the top riders denied doping even in the face of positive tests? Didn't they all offer excuses and explanations for irregular results? Armstrong has only spun out the same story as the rest - no better, no worse. Why bother following pro cycling if doping disgusts you - you know they all do it and you know it has always been thus.

I am happy to support one rider over another, or diss another rider because of his loud mouth or style of riding. But I won't delude myself that there is a worldwide masterplan that ensures only those that ride for the Hog are going to evade dope tests and win Grand Tours. AC was a shade better than his rivals this Giro, he didn't perform super-human feats, he didn't blast his opponents apart and he didn't win with any panache - but he won and that's what counts.

As far as the Spanish doctors go, perhaps you can point me in the direction of the countries where doctors routinely fail to give professional cyclists a clean bill of health. I don't recall the medics in the US, the UK, France, Holland or Italy playing a leading role in getting riders disqualified.

 

[poulidor]

For bribery and collusion with UCI... just recall:
- Armstrong's money to UCI (or to Verbbruggen?)
- some teams, especially US, have done testing in spanish WADA lab,
- how is acting, speaking UCI is something like a corrupted system,
- the positive test leaked because they risked to be "cleared" by UCI

There is a lot of clues in the last years that have showed the anormality and the corruption of the system.

 

[hawkeye87]

No, that was part of my point. The other part was to question the hypocrisy of the AC haters who slam him for doping while supporting his rivals and to ask why it was okay to support Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Hamiltion, Vinokourov, Landis etc. yet demonize Armstrong. You say Armstrong's speech about "not believing in miracles" makes you sick but isn't that what the rest of them have effectively said? Haven't all of the top riders denied doping even in the face of positive tests? Didn't they all offer excuses and explanations for irregular results? Armstrong has only spun out the same story as the rest - no better, no worse. Why bother following pro cycling if doping disgusts you - you know they all do it and you know it has always been thus.

I was a former Armstrong fan. I still have the yellow armband, though it sits tucked in a drawer and not worn anymore.

I admired Ullrich's talent but he was a competitor to Armstrong so was never in his camp.

Vino was incredible. His attacking style was dynamic to watch. He would light up everything with his performances.

The trouble is, while cheering for those performances then, I cannot look back at them with fondness anymore because the plain and simple fact is those performances occurred with the aid of either drugs or blood-doping. If those methods did not have all of the baggage as being dangerous to an athletes current or long-term health and setting a horrible precedent for youths to follow (do a google search on former MLB pitcher Bert Hooten who lost his teenage son to suicide from steriod use), I'd say fine, let them all dope.

But I guess I have some naivety in thinking that perhaps cycling was truly going to clean up.

I probably will have less and less interest in cycling as it appears they are not interested in cleaning it up. But, U.S. fans are not the real target audience. They won't be back in droves unless another American wins 7 Tours and has the potential to top it with 8.