glucosamine -- what about MSM, Chondroitin

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Ignoramus11308, Dec 8, 2003.

  1. Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?

    Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some reading,
    I suppose...

    Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo healthy
    male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?

    i
     
    Tags:


  2. Joann Evans

    Joann Evans Guest

    Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    >
    > Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >
    > Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    > reading, I suppose...
    >
    > Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo healthy
    > male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    >
    > i

    I've had a definite subjective benefit from a daily gram of MSM alone...

    --

    You know what to remove, to reply....
     
  3. Jmk

    Jmk Guest

    On 12/7/2003 11:12 PM, Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    > Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >
    > Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    > reading, I suppose...
    >
    > Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo healthy
    > male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?

    Glucosamine is supposed to stimulate your body to build more cartilage. Condroitin is supposed to
    inhibit the cartilage-destroying enzymies (and reduce inflamation). In other words, one helps build
    cartilage and the other helps to keep it from being torn down.

    --
    jmk in NC
     
  4. Wendy

    Wendy Guest

    >> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?

    I just went and bought some with MSM added in. Someone on MFW suggested
    it. My shoulder is still sore (though a little less so) and I figure it won't hurt.

    A weird new thing has happened, though, and I have no reason to think it's related to the Gluc/Chond
    combo, but that's the only thing new that I've started taking so maybe it is... my sense of smell
    seems to be better. I can't think why.

    Wendy
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>, Joann Evans wrote:
    > Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    >>
    >> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >>
    >> Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    >> reading, I suppose...
    >>
    >> Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo
    >> healthy male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    >>
    >> i
    >
    >
    > I've had a definite subjective benefit from a daily gram of MSM alone...
    >
    >

    Benefit improving what condition?

    i
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>, jmk wrote:
    > On 12/7/2003 11:12 PM, Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    >> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >>
    >> Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    >> reading, I suppose...
    >>
    >> Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo
    >> healthy male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    >
    > Glucosamine is supposed to stimulate your body to build more cartilage. Condroitin is supposed to
    > inhibit the cartilage-destroying enzymies (and reduce inflamation). In other words, one helps
    > build cartilage and the other helps to keep it from being torn down.
    >

    I thought chondroitin was supposed to help build and improve connective tissue and help with joint
    flexibility. In my mind, glucosamine was for cartilage (lining of joints) and chondroitin was for
    the connective tissue. Can you clarify it?

    Also, what is MSM for? I am reading web articles about it right now.

    Thanks!

    i
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, Wendy wrote:
    >
    >>> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >
    > I just went and bought some with MSM added in. Someone on MFW suggested
    > it. My shoulder is still sore (though a little less so) and I figure it won't hurt.

    how many milligrams of either are you taking per day?

    I also have a shoulder problem from a posthole digger mishap last summer.

    > A weird new thing has happened, though, and I have no reason to think it's related to the
    > Gluc/Chond combo, but that's the only thing new that I've started taking so maybe it is... my
    > sense of smell seems to be better. I can't think why.

    amazing stuff...

    i
     
  8. Jmk

    Jmk Guest

    On 12/8/2003 10:35 AM, Ignoramus25226 wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, jmk wrote:
    >
    >>On 12/7/2003 11:12 PM, Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    >>
    >>>Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >>>
    >>>Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    >>>reading, I suppose...
    >>>
    >>>Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo
    >>>healthy male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    >>
    >>Glucosamine is supposed to stimulate your body to build more cartilage. Condroitin is supposed to
    >>inhibit the cartilage-destroying enzymies (and reduce inflamation). In other words, one helps
    >>build cartilage and the other helps to keep it from being torn down.
    >>
    >
    >
    > I thought chondroitin was supposed to help build and improve connective tissue and help with joint
    > flexibility. In my mind, glucosamine was for cartilage (lining of joints) and chondroitin was for
    > the connective tissue. Can you clarify it?

    Glucosamine for Arthritis http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/glucosamine.html

    "Laboratory studies suggest that glucosamine may stimulate production of cartilage-building
    proteins. Other research suggests that chondroitin may inhibit production of cartilage-destroying
    enzymes and fight inflammation too. Glucosamine supplements are derived from shellfish shells;
    chondroitin supplements are generally made from cow cartilage. Human studies have shown that
    either one may relieve arthritis pain and stiffness with fewer side effects than conventional
    arthritis drugs"

    Product Review: Joint Supplements (Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and MSM)
    http://www.consumerlab.com/results/gluco.asp "Glucosamine is thought to promote the formation and
    repair of cartilage. Chondroitin is believed to promote water retention and elasticity in cartilage
    and inhibit enzymes that break down cartilage. In veterinary medicine, glucosamine and chondroitin,
    often in combination, are commonly used in the treatment of degenerative joint disease — typically
    in older dogs and cats as well as in horses."

    >
    > Also, what is MSM for? I am reading web articles about it right now.
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > i

    --
    jmk in NC
     
  9. Joann Evans

    Joann Evans Guest

    Ignoramus25226 wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>, Joann Evans wrote:
    > > Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    > >>
    > >> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    > >>
    > >> Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    > >> reading, I suppose...
    > >>
    > >> Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo
    > >> healthy male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    > >>
    > >> i
    > >
    > >
    > > I've had a definite subjective benefit from a daily gram of MSM alone...
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Benefit improving what condition?
    >
    > i

    Just minor knee and elbow stiffness that disappeared very soon after I began. (FWIW, I'm about a
    month away from being 50.) I've not discontinued it for more than a day or two, so I don't know
    if it might return if I did. Nor is it the only supplement I take (I just don't use chrondrotin
    at this point), so there may or may not be other interactions going on.

    --

    You know what to remove, to reply....
     
  10. In article <[email protected]>, Joann Evans wrote:
    > Ignoramus25226 wrote:
    >>
    >> In article <[email protected]>, Joann Evans wrote:
    >> > Ignoramus11308 wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> Also, what amout chondroitin, or MSM?
    >> >>
    >> >> Are they worth anything? They were sold at sams club for the same purpose. Need to do some
    >> >> reading, I suppose...
    >> >>
    >> >> Does chondroitin really help in improving flexibility? If I just work on stretching (32 yo
    >> >> healthy male), I can accomplish the same thing naturally, right?
    >> >>
    >> >> i
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > I've had a definite subjective benefit from a daily gram of MSM alone...
    >> >
    >> >
    >>
    >> Benefit improving what condition?
    >>
    >> i
    >
    > Just minor knee and elbow stiffness that disappeared very soon after I began. (FWIW, I'm about
    > a month away from being 50.) I've not discontinued it for more than a day or two, so I don't
    > know if it might return if I did. Nor is it the only supplement I take (I just don't use
    > chrondrotin at this point), so there may or may not be other interactions going on.
    >
    >

    Thanks all. I just bought two bottles of 120 pills each, 3 pills in a dose, which works out
    to 80 doses.

    Each dose contains 1500mg of glucosamine HCl (I am aware that some people think that sulfate is
    better, but it seems that in the hcl stomach environment, sulfate is replaced with hcl anyway),
    1200mg of chondroitin, and 500mg of MSM (anyone thinks it's low?).

    I will be taking them daily. I have recorded, in a computer file, a complete description of even
    minor but objectively noticeable joint issues that I have as of today, and will compare my condition
    after a month.

    i
     
  11. Mack

    Mack Guest

    The placebo effect is much stronger than most people think. Anyone who takes anything on a regular
    basis in the strong belief -- sometimes just hope -- that it will relieve pain is likely to get a
    positive reaction from it, at least for awhile, whether it actually has any physical effect on the
    body part or not. Combine that belief with a little medical ritual from a priest (doctor) in a white
    coat and the effect is hightened even more.

    All pain is a combination of physical factors and psychogenesis and much common back, butt, leg, and
    joint pain is 100% psychogenic -- related to the conscious and unconscious emotional state of the
    person, not physical problems with his body tissues.

    One person has a deteriorated knee joint and it causes pain, another person has the same or worse
    condition but it never causes pain. Often the origin of the pain is in the emotions, even though it
    usually locates at the site of a body part that has some old or new injury or other abnormality. The
    mind puts the pain where you would expect it to be.

    mack austin

    "Joann Evans" <[email protected]> wrote

    > Just minor knee and elbow stiffness that disappeared very soon after I began. (FWIW, I'm about
    > a month away from being 50.) I've not discontinued it for more than a day or two, so I don't
    > know if it might return if I did. Nor is it the only supplement I take (I just don't use
    > chrondrotin at this point), so there may or may not be other interactions going on.
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > You know what to remove, to reply....
     
  12. I will try to be objective in evaluating my condition. I wrote up a detailed description of my joint
    issues to be compared with the future. I know that memory is fallible.

    i In article <[email protected]>, Mack wrote:
    > The placebo effect is much stronger than most people think. Anyone who takes anything on a regular
    > basis in the strong belief -- sometimes just hope -- that it will relieve pain is likely to get a
    > positive reaction from it, at least for awhile, whether it actually has any physical effect on the
    > body part or not. Combine that belief with a little medical ritual from a priest (doctor) in a
    > white coat and the effect is hightened even more.
    >
    > All pain is a combination of physical factors and psychogenesis and much common back, butt, leg,
    > and joint pain is 100% psychogenic -- related to the conscious and unconscious emotional state of
    > the person, not physical problems with his body tissues.
    >
    > One person has a deteriorated knee joint and it causes pain, another person has the same or worse
    > condition but it never causes pain. Often the origin of the pain is in the emotions, even though
    > it usually locates at the site of a body part that has some old or new injury or other
    > abnormality. The mind puts the pain where you would expect it to be.
    >
    > mack austin
    >
    > "Joann Evans" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    >> Just minor knee and elbow stiffness that disappeared very soon after I began. (FWIW, I'm about
    >> a month away from being 50.) I've not discontinued it for more than a day or two, so I don't
    >> know if it might return if I did. Nor is it the only supplement I take (I just don't use
    >> chrondrotin at this point), so there may or may not be other interactions going on.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> You know what to remove, to reply....
     
  13. Ghost

    Ghost Guest

    For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    through you almost undigested (~15%).

    I am using the powder mixture of the three from www.Beyond-a-century.com which is very cheap
    relative to tablets. I just mix the powder in with the oils I take, flax, fish, CLA. mmmm! - well,
    not really.

    Yes I'm top-posting, sue me.
     
  14. Jmk

    Jmk Guest

    On 12/8/2003 10:24 PM, Mack wrote:
    > The placebo effect is much stronger than most people think. Anyone who takes anything on a regular
    > basis in the strong belief -- sometimes just hope -- that it will relieve pain is likely to get a
    > positive reaction from it, at least for awhile, whether it actually has any physical effect on the
    > body part or not. Combine that belief with a little medical ritual from a priest (doctor) in a
    > white coat and the effect is hightened even more.

    On the one hand, I understand what you are saying and I agree but on the other hand, I don't think
    that it works that way for dogs. I toss my lab's glucosamine pill in her food (Glyco-Flex is her
    brand). Does she even know it is there? If so, does she know what it is for? If this is placebo
    effect, why do we notice a difference when she is on or off this supplement (it takes 7-14 days
    either on or off for us to notice a difference)?

    c-- jmk in NC
     
  15. David Wright

    David Wright Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, ghost <[email protected]> wrote:
    >For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    >through you almost undigested (~15%).

    Your basis for this statement? It's a common claim with absolutely no scientific backing, as far
    as I know.

    >I am using the powder mixture of the three from www.Beyond-a-century.com which is very cheap
    >relative to tablets. I just mix the powder in with the oils I take, flax, fish, CLA. mmmm! - well,
    >not really.
    >
    >Yes I'm top-posting, sue me.

    No, you aren't. You didn't quote anything.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always
    correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my
    shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
     
  16. Dz

    Dz Guest

    ghost <[email protected]> wrote:
    > For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    > through you almost undigested (~15%).

    I don't know if this is true in particular, but it seems that even scientists publishing on this
    topic are thoroughly confused. Compare two statements:

    glucosamine "is exceedingly well absorbed after oral administration, with 87% of radioactive
    glucosamine appearing in either the urine or other body excretion routes outside of the bowel"
    (Felson DT, McAlindon. Glucosamine and chondroitin for osteoarthritis: to recommend or not to
    recommend? Arthritis Care Res. 2000;13(4):179-82)

    and

    "It appears that the bioavailability of glucosamine is very low, in that only about 12% of the dose
    is absorbed even after 2 weeks of treatment" (Doyle ME, Egan JM. Pharmacological agents that
    directly modulate insulin secretion. Pharmacol Rev. 2003;55(1):105-31)

    The second article goes on speculating that the low bioavailability is the reason why "we have not
    seen" and "not likely to see any" reports "of deterioration of diabetes control in subjects already
    diabetic and who are being treated with glucosamine."

    DZ
     
  17. In article <[email protected]>, DZ wrote:
    > ghost <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    >> through you almost undigested (~15%).
    >
    > I don't know if this is true in particular, but it seems that even scientists publishing on this
    > topic are thoroughly confused. Compare two statements:
    >
    > glucosamine "is exceedingly well absorbed after oral administration, with 87% of radioactive
    > glucosamine appearing in either the urine or other body excretion routes outside of the bowel"
    > (Felson DT, McAlindon. Glucosamine and chondroitin for osteoarthritis: to recommend or not to
    > recommend? Arthritis Care Res. 2000;13(4):179-82)
    >
    > and
    >
    > "It appears that the bioavailability of glucosamine is very low, in that only about 12% of the
    > dose is absorbed even after 2 weeks of treatment" (Doyle ME, Egan JM. Pharmacological agents that
    > directly modulate insulin secretion. Pharmacol Rev. 2003;55(1):105-31)
    >
    > The second article goes on speculating that the low bioavailability is the reason why "we have not
    > seen" and "not likely to see any" reports "of deterioration of diabetes control in subjects
    > already diabetic and who are being treated with glucosamine."
    >
    > DZ

    It appears that itis absorbed by the bowel, but excreted rather than used in joints etc. Obviously
    joints cannot use 1500 mg of any substance per day as it would be too much. I agree that there is a
    confusion stemming from not having a clear definition what is "bioavailability" and what is actual
    use of a substance by the body.

    i
     
  18. Dz

    Dz Guest

    Ignoramus6480 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, DZ wrote:
    > > ghost <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    > >> through you almost undigested (~15%).
    > >
    > > I don't know if this is true in particular, but it seems that even scientists publishing on this
    > > topic are thoroughly confused. Compare two statements:
    > >
    > > glucosamine "is exceedingly well absorbed after oral administration, with 87% of radioactive
    > > glucosamine appearing in either the urine or other body excretion routes outside of the bowel"
    > > (Felson DT, McAlindon. Glucosamine and chondroitin for osteoarthritis: to recommend or not to
    > > recommend? Arthritis Care Res. 2000;13(4):179-82)
    > >
    > > and
    > >
    > > "It appears that the bioavailability of glucosamine is very low, in that only about 12% of the
    > > dose is absorbed even after 2 weeks of treatment" (Doyle ME, Egan JM. Pharmacological agents
    > > that directly modulate insulin secretion. Pharmacol Rev. 2003;55(1):105-31)
    > >
    > > The second article goes on speculating that the low bioavailability is the reason why "we have
    > > not seen" and "not likely to see any" reports "of deterioration of diabetes control in subjects
    > > already diabetic and who are being treated with glucosamine."
    > >
    > > DZ
    >
    > It appears that itis absorbed by the bowel, but excreted rather than used in joints etc.
    > Obviously joints cannot use 1500 mg of any substance per day as it would be too much. I agree
    > that there is a confusion stemming from not having a clear definition what is "bioavailability"
    > and what is actual use of a substance by the body.

    It is one possible reading, and in this sense vitamin C is not "bioavailable", but I don't think the
    second article mean it in this sense (as the proportion actually utilized).

    First article seem to suggest that the good absorbtion is one of the components of glucosomine
    efficacy. The second article says we aren't going see any (bad) effects because the
    availability is low.

    DZ
     
  19. Joann Evans

    Joann Evans Guest

    Mack wrote:
    >
    > The placebo effect is much stronger than most people think.

    Yes. That's why I initially described the benefit as 'subjective,' and noted that I hadn't tried
    discontinuing MSN to see if the disconfort returned. I am indeed a data point of one, at best....

    --

    You know what to remove, to reply....
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Guest

    On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:37:51 GMT, [email protected] (David
    Wright) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, ghost <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>For these supplements, try not to take them as solid tablets, since they are apt to just pass
    >>through you almost undigested (~15%).
    >
    >Your basis for this statement? It's a common claim with absolutely no scientific backing, as far
    >as I know.

    I'm not going to spend time to dig up a reference. The point: buying the powdered form is a LOT
    cheaper - that is reason alone to go that route, and if it is more bioavailable because of the form,
    that is just a bonus.

    >>I am using the powder mixture of the three from www.Beyond-a-century.com which is very cheap
    >>relative to tablets. I just mix the powder in with the oils I take, flax, fish, CLA. mmmm! - well,
    >>not really.
    >>
    >>Yes I'm top-posting, sue me.
    >
    >No, you aren't. You didn't quote anything.

    whatever

    > -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always
    > correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my
    > shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT
     
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