Glucose VS. Protein

[Irish Indurain]

Just wondering which supplement people prefer for training. I'm actually a rower and i find glucose drinks far more beneficial than protein drinks. It gives me more energy to do endurance sessions/weights and i think this is relative in the cycling world as well. Yet many of my crewmates still stick by the protein drinks. I think they just believe the hype that it really helps muscle growth, or am i wrong?
Anyone scientifically know which supplement/drink would be more beneficial for a rower/cyclist.

Fantastic forum btw!

 

[zaskar]

Protien is only good for mucsle maintance and repair, stick with your drink of glucose.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Just wondering which supplement people prefer for training. I'm actually a rower and i find glucose drinks far more beneficial than protein drinks. It gives me more energy to do endurance sessions/weights and i think this is relative in the cycling world as well. Yet many of my crewmates still stick by the protein drinks. I think they just believe the hype that it really helps muscle growth, or am i wrong?
Anyone scientifically know which supplement/drink would be more beneficial for a rower/cyclist.

Fantastic forum btw!

prior to, during, and post exercise, it's the consumption of carbohydrates that are critical, in either fuelling the body or allowing recovery. while some protein may be of benefit post exercise, the amount required is very small (e.g., ~ 10 g), whereas carbohydrate requirements are likely to ten times higher.

protein supplements aren't required assuming you maintain your weight and eat a normal mixed diet (including a vegetarian one).

having a protein drink is most likely to result in expensive urine, and possible kidney damage.

ric

 

[Whitney]

Carbohydrate is what you need for energy, and almost everybody gets all the protein they need and more from a decent diet.

But there have been indications that a carbohydrate drink, with a small percentage of protein in it as well, is absorbed by the gut faster, may reduce muscle soreness, and may speed up recovery.

Accellerade is one drink that uses a 4 to 1 mix of carbs and protein, and there are others as well.

But defninitely, the carbohydrate is what you need for glycogen replacement, and the sooner after exercising the better (and of course, while you are exercising too.)




Whit

 

[zaskar]

Carbohydrate is what you need for energy, and almost everybody gets all the protein they need and more from a decent diet.

But there have been indications that a carbohydrate drink, with a small percentage of protein in it as well, is absorbed by the gut faster, may reduce muscle soreness, and may speed up recovery.

Accellerade is one drink that uses a 4 to 1 mix of carbs and protein, and there are others as well.

But defninitely, the carbohydrate is what you need for glycogen replacement, and the sooner after exercising the better (and of course, while you are exercising too.)




Whit

I myself think the protien added to some sports drink is a sales tactic. i used Accellerade and for me it didn't work well compared to a 6% soultion of just carbs and electrolytes.plus Accellerade and any other sports drink with protien is very very nasty when it gets warm.

 

[patch70]

possible kidney damage

And the evidence for this is?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

And the evidence for this is?

Opps. apologies, that should have read excessive protein intake - not protein drink.

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Carbohydrate is what you need for energy, and almost everybody gets all the protein they need and more from a decent diet.

But there have been indications that a carbohydrate drink, with a small percentage of protein in it as well, is absorbed by the gut faster, may reduce muscle soreness, and may speed up recovery.

Accellerade is one drink that uses a 4 to 1 mix of carbs and protein, and there are others as well.

there isn't any proper evidence for this 4:1 ratio. IIRC, the 'study' has never been peer reviewed or that there was some methodological errors.

ric

 

[Whitney]

there isn't any proper evidence for this 4:1 ratio. IIRC, the 'study' has never been peer reviewed or that there was some methodological errors.

ric

I'm a little leery of studies that products tout myself. Like the ones Endurox shows here as well as others.

But there are a lot of coaches, organizations, and athletes that feel the info is solid enough to warrant a little protein with their carb drinks, and in fact the addition of a small amount of protein- and of course it does not have to be 4:1, like you said- seems to have no other side effects, so I thought I would just include that in the conversation here.

Whit

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I'm a little leery of studies that products tout myself. Like the ones Endurox shows here as well as others.

But there are a lot of coaches, organizations, and athletes that feel the info is solid enough to warrant a little protein with their carb drinks, and in fact the addition of a small amount of protein- and of course it does not have to be 4:1, like you said- seems to have no other side effects, so I thought I would just include that in the conversation here.

Whit

post exercise when you eat some sort of high carbohydrate meal to replenish your glycogen stores, would almost certainly contain some small amount of protein (e.g., ~ 10g which is all that is needed). you'd have to something weird for it to not have any protein. even if you just had a bowl of pasta there'd be sufficient protein in that (from memory).

ric

 

[Cowboyathlete]

I still cannot get over how some cyclists are leery of extra protein for recovery?!?! If you are exerting yourself that much, your body needs the extra protein.

 

[Cowboyathlete]

Protein Sports Drink May Boost Endurance
URL of this page: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_19086.html (*this news item will not be available after 08/20/2004)


Wednesday, July 21, 2004


NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A sports drink with a shot of protein may give endurance athletes some extra juice, new research suggests.

The study of 15 male cyclists found that a sports drink containing carbohydrates and protein appeared to boost endurance better than a traditional carb-only sports drink. It also seemed to lessen the muscle wear-and-tear that comes with intense exercise.

While water may be enough for the average moderate exerciser, it's thought that sports drinks, with their added carbohydrates and electrolytes, may be the better choice during long workouts. The idea of adding protein to the mix is that it may further stretch an athlete's endurance, and possibly aid in repairing the muscle damage that occurs during grueling exercise.

The new study compared Accelerade, a brand of sports drink with a dose of whey protein, with the carb-only standby Gatorade. It found that trained cyclists pedaled further when they refueled with the protein-fortified beverage.

The findings suggest that for endurance athletes, a protein-containing sports drink may be the way to go, lead study author Dr. Michael J. Saunders said in a statement.

Athletes in sports where "endurance and recovery are critical," such as running, cycling and tennis, could benefit, according to Saunders, who directs the Human Performance Lab at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

The university's School of Kinesiology and Recreation Studies funded the study, which is published in the July issue of the journal Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise.

Saunders and his colleagues tested the sports drinks by having trained cyclists pedal a stationary bike to the point of exhaustion while replenishing with either the protein-added or carb-only drink every 15 minutes. The athletes performed a second, more demanding ride the next day. One to two weeks later, they went through the process again, this time with the other drink.

Saunders' team found that the men lasted 29 percent longer during the first test and 40 percent longer during the second test when they drank the protein-containing drink.

There were also signs of less exercise-induced muscle damage, according to the researchers. After the exercise tests, the cyclists' blood levels of creatine phosphokinase -- an enzyme released from muscles under stress -- were lower when they consumed protein during the workout.

It's "plausible," Saunders and his colleagues note in the report, that the drink aided protein synthesis and repair of muscle fibers.

However, they also point out that the extra calories in the protein-added beverage may have contributed to the performance benefits. They say more research is needed to see whether "specific protein-mediated mechanisms" should get the credit.

Saunders, himself a competitive endurance athlete, told Reuters Health he now drinks sports drinks with protein while exercising. "And that's probably the strongest recommendation I can give," he said.

The fact that adding protein to a sports drink appears to protect people from muscle damage suggests that they may feel less sore after a heavy workout, and get more enjoyment out of exercise as a result. "The day-to-day grind of training simply becomes easier," he said.

Saunders added that none of the researchers involved in the study have any relationship to PacificHealth Laboratories, Inc., the maker of Accelerade.

SOURCE: Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, July 2004.


Copyright 2003 Reuters. Reuters content is the intellectual property of Reuters. Any copying, republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters, the Reuters Dotted Logo and the Sphere Logo are registered trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I still cannot get over how some cyclists are leery of extra protein for recovery?!?! If you are exerting yourself that much, your body needs the extra protein.

the extra protein that you *do* need, is available from your normal diet that has to increase to match your energy output (else you'd loose weight).

ric

 

[zaskar]

I still cannot get over how some cyclists are leery of extra protein for recovery?!?!


Well get over it

 

[Whitney]

post exercise when you eat some sort of high carbohydrate meal to replenish your glycogen stores, would almost certainly contain some small amount of protein (e.g., ~ 10g which is all that is needed). you'd have to something weird for it to not have any protein. even if you just had a bowl of pasta there'd be sufficient protein in that (from memory).

ric

There's no doubt that all but the most extreme exercisers, or those who have a very poor diet, get enough protein to meet their body's requirement.

USRDA is .363g, I believe, per pound per day, so about 54 grams for a 150 lb. person. Heavy exercisers can increase their needs, by most accounts from 20 to 100%. That is still not a lot, and the average american, I have read, gets about 100g a day normally.

What I take these studies to mean is that a small amount of protein added to a carb solution taken in during the session seems to act as an agent, speeding absorption by the gut and replenishment of muscle glycogen.

Keeping a generally higher level of glycogen in the muscles would, one would think, extend your normal time to exhaustion, and if not taken to exhaustion in a particular ride, would leave you with more glycogen in your muscles, and a shorter time to full glycogen replenishment.

Also as shown above in the article, I have seen that and another that stated there were reduced levels of CPK found after exercise, and apparently less damage to muscle tissue.

We do know that protein is used by the body to repair muscle damage and maintain cell structure. We also know that in low-carb states, like endurance exercises, protein is catabolized to provide energy, so these claims do not seem too far removed from what we already know about protein.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Of all the hype and hooey and flat out lies out there about performance enhancing substances, this is one of the few that I think might have some merit. And even if it doesn't, at least it isn't going to have any nasty side effects that anyone knows of, aside from sending a tiny little bit more to the fat lockers!


Whit

 

[BiochemGuy]

Having some protein with your carbohydrates is a good idea. I don't think carbs should ever be taken alone. When you have carbs you increase blood glucose which raises insulin levels. The insulin will carry amino acids from the blood stream into muscle cells leaving blood amino acid levels low.


If blood amino acid levels get low the body will want to replenish them. Were does the body get the amino acids to replenish the blood amino acids? Well if you consume protein it will use that protein to replenish blood aminos. If you don't consume protein the body will either use stored amino acids in the liver or break down muscle tissue to get amino acids. For some strange unknown reason the body loves to keep the liver amino acid levels high and rarely uses it unless the body must have them and dosn't have any other source, such as starvation.

This means the body will probably use muscle tissue to replenish blood amino acid levels. Which puts the body in a catabolic state and causes muscle loss and decreases recovery.

 

[zaskar]

Having some protein with your carbohydrates is a good idea. I don't think carbs should ever be taken alone. When you have carbs you increase blood glucose which raises insulin levels. The insulin will carry amino acids from the blood stream into muscle cells leaving blood amino acid levels low.


If blood amino acid levels get low the body will want to replenish them. Were does the body get the amino acids to replenish the blood amino acids? Well if you consume protein it will use that protein to replenish blood aminos. If you don't consume protein the body will either use stored amino acids in the liver or break down muscle tissue to get amino acids. For some strange unknown reason the body loves to keep the liver amino acid levels high and rarely uses it unless the body must have them and dosn't have any other source, such as starvation.

This means the body will probably use muscle tissue to replenish blood amino acid levels. Which puts the body in a catabolic state and causes muscle loss and decreases recovery.

Protiens provide energy in late stages of prolonged execise-when muscle glycogen stores fall, as may occur in latter stages of endurance activities, the body breaks down amino acids found in skeletal muscle protien into glucose to supply up to 15% of the energy needed.

Protien provide energy when DIET IS INADEQUATE consuming too few calories or a low-carbo diet causes the body to resort to using protien for fule, leading to a loss of lean muscle tissue.

So as long as you eat a rich carbo diet and consume carbs on the bike there is no need for protien in the drink, post is when you take in protien.

 

[BiochemGuy]

Protiens provide energy in late stages of prolonged execise-when muscle glycogen stores fall, as may occur in latter stages of endurance activities, the body breaks down amino acids found in skeletal muscle protien into glucose to supply up to 15% of the energy needed.

Yes, but this has nothing to do with what I wrote. Aminos are used by muscle for anabolism and not just fuel. aminos get into muscle cells by insulin. So high insulin levels from carbs causes blood aminos to clear the blood and go into muscle cells for anabolism. Blood aminos must be replenished and this causes the catabolic effect. Yes carbs spare protein, but this is only a temporary effect until glucose is gone.

Carbs spare protein from being used for fuel only while the raised glucose levels from the carbs are still present. Once the glucose from the carbs are gone a GREATER muscle protein breakdown effect happens.

Glucose + aminos= greatest muscle protein sparing effect and an anabolic state.

Glucose alone= muscle protein sparing, slight anabolism swiftly followed by a catabolic state.

Protien provide energy when DIET IS INADEQUATE consuming too few calories or a low-carbo diet causes the body to resort to using protien for fule, leading to a loss of lean muscle tissue.

About 60% of the protein we eat becomes glucose for fuel no matter what kind of diet we are on. If you are talking about just muscle protein then yea I agree a super low calorie diet will cause great muscle protein burning. A low carb diet won't cause more muscle protein to be burned in average people doing an average amount of exercise. Yes maybe in a cyclist under extreme calorie burning conditions. Some studies show a muscle protein sparing effect from low carb diets, though these people wern't doing alot of exercise.

People make the mistake of thinking, since carbs are protein sparing. Then a low-carb diet will cause more protein buring. This isn't the case. Carbs are only protein sparing when glucose is the prefered fuel. Which ofcourse isn't the case when in ketosis. Fatty acids and ketones become the bodies main fuel source.

So as long as you eat a rich carbo diet and consume carbs on the bike there is no need for protien in the drink, post is when you take in protien.

Given the fact that it takes atleast 2 hours for any aminos from the protein you consume to hit the bloodtream protein post is usually to late. pre and post would probably be best. Now I wrote,"Having some protein with your carbs is a good idea" What I meant to say is that protein should be taken around the same time that carbs are. Given the fact that protein takes longer to digest than carbs; Having some protein before cycling will allow aminos to hit your system about the same time the glucose from the carbs during cycling do.

 

[Jhikers]

I'M ACTUALLY A ROWER AND I FIND GLUCOSE DRINKS FAR MORE BENFICIAL THAN PROTEIN DRINKS. YET MANY OF MY CREWMATES STILL STICK BY THE PROTEIN DRINKS.

Ever thought of combining the two?!!
It's amazing...





THE EXTRA PROTEIN THE YOU DO NEED IS AVAILABLE FROM YOUR NORMAL DIET THAT HAS TO INCREASE TO MATCH YOUR ENERGY OUTPUT.

Not quite! I have been involved in multiple scientific studies myself that have proven protein is one of the MAJOR nutritional supplements required by the human body during prolonged exercise...

RicSTERN... hmm, mate - you just don't know what you're missing out on!




I'd recommend carbo-gels and protein bars to be taken during exercise, over the drinks.

But Indurain, if you like the carbo-drinks add some protein bars into your training and watch how well you recover and feel after training.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

THE EXTRA PROTEIN THE YOU DO NEED IS AVAILABLE FROM YOUR NORMAL DIET THAT HAS TO INCREASE TO MATCH YOUR ENERGY OUTPUT.

Not quite! I have been involved in multiple scientific studies myself that have proven protein is one of the MAJOR nutritional supplements required by the human body during prolonged exercise...

RicSTERN... hmm, mate - you just don't know what you're missing out on!

whether you've been involved in multiple scientific studies or not (goodness so have i!) there isn't any good evidence to show that you need protein during exercise

ric