Gluing Tape (was Tubular rim glue ???)

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jens Kurt Heyck, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the Tufo
    stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance than
    regular glue?

    -- Jens
     
    Tags:


  2. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Jens Kurt Heycke writes:

    > For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    > rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    > Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    > than regular glue?

    I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't stick
    well and noting that among riders, no one else I met used
    it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a tire
    adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades where I
    had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
    temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
    well was never a consideration for me.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  3. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
    >
    > > For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    > > rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    > > Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    > > than regular glue?
    >
    > I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't stick
    > well and noting that among riders, no one else I met used
    > it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a tire
    > adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades where I
    > had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
    > temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
    > well was never a consideration for me.

    You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right? Which
    kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for cyclo-
    cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73 degrees F)"
    or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track and
    triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

    JP
     
  4. "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
    > >
    > > > For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    > > > rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    > > > Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    > > > than regular glue?
    > >
    > > I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
    > > stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
    > > met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
    > > a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades
    > > where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
    > > customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
    > > whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.
    >
    > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right? Which
    > kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for cyclo-
    > cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73 degrees F)"
    > or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track and
    > triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

    Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is best
    for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to get off
    the road by 10am during most of the racing season. Seems
    like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
    standard if they don't read the fine print.

    -- Jens
     
  5. Jens Kurt Heycke <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
    > > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
    > > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
    > > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
    > > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
    > > temperatures"?

    > Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is
    > best for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to
    > get off the road by 10am during most of the racing season.
    > Seems like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
    > standard if they don't read the fine print.

    Cyclocross is a winter sport. In Europe it's pretty cold
    during cross season. The beginning of the season can be hot
    in the Western US.

    I have heard that the Tufo tape is different from the older
    types of tubular tape, and that for racing it is often used
    in addition to glue, not instead of it. But I have never
    used either type of tape.

    ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
    Do your users want the best web-email gateway? Don't let
    your customers drift off to free webmail services install
    your own web gateway! -- See
    http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_webmail.htm ----
     
  6. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > [email protected] wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
    > > >
    > > > > For those who believe that rim glue results in
    > > > > higher rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape
    > > > > (e.g. the Tufo stuff) results in more or less
    > > > > rolling resistance than regular glue?
    > > >
    > > > I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
    > > > stick well and noting that among riders, no one else
    > > > I met used it, I was easily convinced it was
    > > > worthless as a tire adhesive, especially when braking
    > > > on steep grades where I had tire creep before the rim
    > > > got up to customary temperature for such a hill.
    > > > Therefore, whether it rolls well was never a
    > > > consideration for me.
    > >
    > > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
    > > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
    > > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
    > > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
    > > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
    > > temperatures"?
    >
    > Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is
    > best for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to
    > get off the road by 10am during most of the racing season.
    > Seems like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
    > standard if they don't read the fine print.
    >
    >
    >
    > -- Jens

    Dear Jens, Jobst, and JP,

    And here I thought that things had gotten completely out of
    hand with rim glue . . .

    http://www.tufotires.com/tufo_activated_tubular_tire_glui.-
    htm

    http://www.tufotires.com/extreme_gluing_strips.htm

    If nothing else, Jobst should enjoy the mascot on the first
    glue link.

    There is only one tape, and its name is duct!

    Carl Fogel
     
  7. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    JP snipes anonymously:

    >>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    >>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    >>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    >>> than regular glue?

    >> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
    >> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
    >> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a
    >> tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades
    >> where I had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
    >> temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
    >> well was never a consideration for me.

    > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?

    Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but various
    others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong from the
    start unless it is a fully coated strip like one pulled out
    of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably attach a
    tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of that and a
    lot of other things that were part of the myth and lore of
    those days.

    > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for
    > cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
    > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track
    > and triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

    Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance and
    that is melting temperature from braking. When mounting
    tires in winter, a short hot braking run would glue any tire
    in a hurry. Having tires for various climates rings of so
    much BS I can't take it.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  8. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]et>...
    > JP snipes anonymously:
    >
    > >>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    > >>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    > >>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    > >>> than regular glue?
    >
    > >> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
    > >> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
    > >> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
    > >> a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep
    > >> grades where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
    > >> customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
    > >> whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.
    >
    > > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
    >
    > Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but
    > various others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong
    > from the start unless it is a fully coated strip like one
    > pulled out of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably
    > attach a tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of
    > that and a lot of other things that were part of the myth
    > and lore of those days.

    Your experience is completely useless in evaluating the
    TUFO tape, then, which is too bad, because I would like to
    hear more about it. Why would you say that rolled tape
    cannot reasonably attach a tubular? (TUFO does not appear
    to be a roll, but it may have the same deficiencies as a
    roll from your perspective.) It seems likely that out of
    the universe of all possible two-sided tapes (including
    known and yet-to-be-discovered or yet-to-be-tried), there
    might exist at least one that would hold a tire on tight
    even in your extreme tests.

    > > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
    > > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
    > > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
    > > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
    > > temperatures"?
    >
    > Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance and
    > that is melting temperature from braking. When mounting
    > tires in winter, a short hot braking run would glue any
    > tire in a hurry. Having tires for various climates rings
    > of so much BS I can't take it.

    If the tape is designed to be used under conditions that do
    not approach the melting temp from braking on extreme
    downhills it might be easier to remove the tire. Just a
    guess, but there could be a legitimate reason. We don't know
    from the blurb whether the supposed operating temperatures
    correlate with better temperature performance on a rim under
    braking. What is encouraging is that a manufacturer has in
    some way looked at the temperature specifications of their
    product. Does TUFO Extreme improve the temperature at which
    it starts to melt? Is it significant in extended downhill
    braking? I don't know and neither do you. It is apparent to
    me that the conditions that cause a tire to shift are +3
    standard deviations or more, and it seems very likely that a
    relatively small improvement in heat resistance could shift
    the temperature where the melting occurs to a range above
    even what you encounter. In the complete lack of objective
    data on this issue you simply do not have enough information
    to have an informed opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test
    it and get us some data, because that's what we need.

    JP
     
  9. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    JP snipes anonymously:

    >>>>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
    >>>>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
    >>>>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
    >>>>> than regular glue?

    >>>> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
    >>>> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
    >>>> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
    >>>> a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep
    >>>> grades where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
    >>>> customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
    >>>> whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.

    >>> You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?

    >> Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but
    >> various others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong
    >> from the start unless it is a fully coated strip like one
    >> pulled out of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably
    >> attach a tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of
    >> that and a lot of other things that were part of the myth
    >> and lore of those days.

    > Your experience is completely useless in evaluating the
    > TUFO tape, then, which is too bad, because I would like to
    > hear more about it. Why would you say that rolled tape
    > cannot reasonably attach a tubular? (TUFO does not appear
    > to be a roll, but it may have the same deficiencies as a
    > roll from your perspective.) It seems likely that out of
    > the universe of all possible two-sided tapes (including
    > known and yet-to-be-discovered or yet-to-be-tried), there
    > might exist at least one that would hold a tire on tight
    > even in your extreme tests.

    Forget about the "experience" and consider what I said that
    this experience made me consider. The formability and
    adhesion of the liquid in the tape does not have the volume
    to do any good, most of it being lost in the fabric of the
    tape that performs no useful purpose once the tape is in
    place. It is merely a carrier of glue in a pre-packaged form
    in which the package interferes with the task at hand.

    >>> Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
    >>> for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
    >>> degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
    >>> track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
    >>> temperatures"?

    >> Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance
    >> and that is melting temperature from braking. When
    >> mounting tires in winter, a short hot braking run would
    >> glue any tire in a hurry. Having tires for various
    >> climates rings of so much BS I can't take it.

    > If the tape is designed to be used under conditions that
    > do not approach the melting temp from braking on extreme
    > downhills it might be easier to remove the tire. Just a
    > guess, but there could be a legitimate reason. We don't
    > know from the blurb whether the supposed operating
    > temperatures correlate with better temperature performance
    > on a rim under braking.

    The glue should have a high enough melting temperature to
    protect riders from it's occurrence yet be low enough that
    the tire could be seated by heat. Meanwhile, road glue must
    be soft enough to allow a tire change and re-adhere
    reasonably. There is where it gets caught between a hard
    rock and a place (oops). The volatile solvent in the glue is
    designed to have that effect before it escapes. Just the
    same, the glue remains a thermoplastic that will soften with
    braking heat.

    > What is encouraging is that a manufacturer has in some way
    > looked at the temperature specifications of their product.
    > Does TUFO Extreme improve the temperature at which it
    > starts to melt? Is it significant in extended downhill
    > braking? I don't know and neither do you.

    Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell us
    about it! I told you what I know about it and with that and
    your regular use of tubulars, it should be no problems to
    analyze this instead of telling me how I don't know a
    tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or otherwise.

    > It is apparent to me that the conditions that cause a tire
    > to shift are +3 standard deviations or more, and it seems
    > very likely that a relatively small improvement in heat
    > resistance could shift the temperature where the melting
    > occurs to a range above even what you encounter. In the
    > complete lack of objective data on this issue you simply
    > do not have enough information to have an informed
    > opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test it and get us some
    > data, because that's what we need.

    You sound like a standard deviant of this newsgroup. Get
    some data!

    ...and stop whining (anonymously).

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  10. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > JP snipes anonymously:

    [snip]

    >
    > > It is apparent to me that the conditions that cause a
    > > tire to shift are +3 standard deviations or more, and it
    > > seems very likely that a relatively small improvement in
    > > heat resistance could shift the temperature where the
    > > melting occurs to a range above even what you encounter.
    > > In the complete lack of objective data on this issue you
    > > simply do not have enough information to have an
    > > informed opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test it and
    > > get us some data, because that's what we need.
    >
    > You sound like a standard deviant of this newsgroup. Get
    > some data!
    >
    > ...and stop whining (anonymously).
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    Dear Jobst,

    Don't need no stinkin' data, eh?

    I wish that I could aspire to be the standard deviant (we
    all have our dreams and that would be a wonderful
    nickname), but alas, I don't know enough about statistics
    to deserve it.

    JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
    excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
    nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-grade
    science class.

    Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
    bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
    increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
    testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
    strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
    seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
    supporting them.

    You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
    instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

    Carl Fogel
     
  11. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell us
    > about it! I told you what I know about it and with that
    > and your regular use of tubulars, it should be no problems
    > to analyze this instead of telling me how I don't know a
    > tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or otherwise.

    While I think you probably do know the difference between a
    tubular and a tube of toothpaste, I think you are completely
    ignorant with regards to contemporary tubular glue tape; yet
    your earlier post on the subject in this thread implied
    otherwise.

    I will certainly consider TUFO tape but would also like to
    hear from someone who has some knowledge of its performace
    before trying it. In fact, I could probably use it for
    months if not years and never discover any deficiencies
    since I do almost all of my riding on a converted rail path
    which therefore has only the mildest of grades. However on
    occasion I do take my bike to the mountains, and would not
    want to learn then that there are problems with it. One of
    the results of your ranting about melting glue has been
    positive, I guess: I have concern about the issue where I
    did not previously.

    The problem with seat-of-the-pants testing of the melting
    point of tubular glue, the kind that you did and suggested
    that I do, is that you really don't learn very much, maybe
    just enough for avoidance conditioning, which closes the
    door on further experience. We don't know whether your
    experiece is at all relevant to current glues and braking
    systems or what the rim temperature was when it took place,
    and now you are extrapolating from thirty year old data
    that was almost worthless at the time to trash a product
    that at least by appearance has little in common with those
    that you had experience with. You have a lot of knowledge
    about the technology of cycling, but don't kid yourself:
    you have a lot more in common with the lore-masters than
    you would care to admit.

    Anonymously yours, JP
     
  12. Smmb

    Smmb Guest

    "JP" <[email protected]> a √©crit dans le message de :
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell
    > > us about it! I told you what I know about it and with
    > > that and your regular use of tubulars, it should be no
    > > problems to analyze this instead of telling me how I
    > > don't know a tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or
    > > otherwise.
    >
    > While I think you probably do know the difference between
    > a tubular and a tube of toothpaste, I think you are
    > completely ignorant with regards to contemporary tubular
    > glue tape; yet your earlier post on the subject in this
    > thread implied otherwise.

    Don't be offended. Mr Brandt does not have the humble
    phrase, "I don't know" in his repertoire. What he did
    suggest is that your singular experience and its anecdotal
    evidence will inform us of the universal principles of
    adhering modern tubular tires to modern rims. Go ahead -
    take the challenge. One week of riding ought to do it ...
    --
    Bonne route,

    Sandy Paris FR
     
  13. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Carl Fogel writes:

    > JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
    > excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
    > nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-grade
    > science class.

    Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.

    > Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
    > bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
    > increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
    > testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
    > strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
    > seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
    > supporting them.

    Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about tape
    and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride tubulars
    anymore and am not about to start again just to test tape
    that I don't intend to use on tires I don't intend to ride.

    > You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
    > instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

    I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
    that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
    ass carping laced with misinformation with a different tone
    than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole "hide
    behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me to offer
    a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it steeenks. You saw
    it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.

    A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
    constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
    attributing their stupidity to their aliases. If you don't
    believe it just go back and check under what names the most
    insulting and stupid posts were made.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  14. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Carl Fogel writes:
    >
    > > JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
    > > excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
    > > nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-
    > > grade science class.
    >
    > Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.
    >
    > > Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
    > > bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
    > > increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
    > > testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
    > > strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
    > > seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
    > > supporting them.
    >
    > Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
    > tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
    > tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
    > test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
    > intend to ride.
    >
    > > You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
    > > instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.
    >
    > I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
    > that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
    > ass carping laced with misinformation with a different
    > tone than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole
    > "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me
    > to offer a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it
    > steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.
    >
    > A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
    > constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
    > attributing their stupidity to their aliases. If you don't
    > believe it just go back and check under what names the
    > most insulting and stupid posts were made.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    Dear Jobst,

    While it's not what you intended, thanks for sending me to
    the bookshelf to look for a quote from "To Kill A
    Mockingbird," which I hadn't read in thirty years and which
    is still a fine read.

    If you think twice about it, who comes to mind when we speak
    of egos and insults on rec.bicycles.tech?

    Carl Fogel
     
  15. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Carl Fogel writes:
    >
    > > JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
    > > excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
    > > nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-
    > > grade science class.
    >
    > Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.
    >
    > > Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
    > > bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
    > > increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
    > > testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
    > > strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
    > > seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
    > > supporting them.
    >
    > Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
    > tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
    > tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
    > test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
    > intend to ride.

    I'm not suggesting that you should go start riding tubulars
    to test tape. What I am suggesting is that if you are going
    to imply that you know something about current tubular tire
    tape, you had either better go out and get some data or shut
    the hell up since as it stands now you don't know what you
    are talking about, or at the very least qualify your posts
    with a statement that everything you know about tubular tire
    tape is based on experience from thirty years ago. (Similar
    to the age of my experience, BTW, but at least I have enough
    imagination to conceive of the possibility that my
    experience is no longer of any value, except perhaps for
    entertainment.)

    > > You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
    > > instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.
    >
    > I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
    > that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
    > ass carping laced with misinformation with a different
    > tone than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole
    > "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me
    > to offer a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it
    > steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.

    I happen to think you have made some good points about some
    things. In particular, I think your theory about anodization
    of rims leading to cracking is well supported. It makes
    sense and you refer to solid research to back it up; I
    thinkg the same is true about your theories on stress
    relieving. That is not the case with this stuff about
    tubular tire tape, however (and I don't think you have made
    a good case that glue is the source of squirm and rolling
    resistance in tubulars, either); it is not a question of
    contradiction, it is whether you show any evidence that you
    know what you are talking about, and, unfortunately, unless
    we restrict ourselves to discussing the state of the art of
    tire tape in the '70s, you do not. (On the tire squirm you
    have an interesting theory to explain some experimental
    results, but not enough evidence to prove it, at least to
    me. In particular, I still have questions about the effect
    of the way the tire is glued on- it could be an
    extraneous variable. I think there was an implication
    in one of your posts that the tires in the experiment
    in question may have only had glue applied to the rim
    and not the tire, because that is how people do it in
    the real world to make it possible to remove tires on
    the road.)

    As to whether my posts are laced with misinformation, well
    no one's perfect, but if you go back over the content of my
    posts directed at you, you will see that there if very
    little information in them. They are *in essence* questions,
    and then criticisms that you present no current evidence to
    support your rants against tubular tires.

    > A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
    > constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
    > attributing their stupidity to their aliases.

    You hugely overestimate your self-importance. I have a
    number of reasons for posting anonymously, and nothing about
    them has anything to do with the content of any posts on any
    subject so trivial as the ones that have gotten you so upset
    (which is not to minimize the significance of rolling a
    tire). It makes me smile a little to think about you
    thinking that I post anonymously just so I can criticize
    *you*. Talk about egos. Whew!

    > If you don't believe it just go back and check under what
    > names the most insulting and stupid posts were made.

    Jobst Brandt? Insulting: hands down winner. If not stupid,
    at least stubborn to a degree that functionally limits the
    application of your native intelligence.

    JP
     
  16. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    <snip> If not stupid, at least stubborn to a degree that
    functionally limits the application of your native
    intelligence.
    >
    > JP

    Maybe THAT's why I have such a problem with some of the
    people here....

    I've been doing things THIS way. Any OTHER way is wrong...
    even if my data is XX years old...

    Mike
     
  17. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    <snip> If not stupid, at least stubborn to a degree that
    functionally limits the application of your native
    intelligence.
    >
    > JP

    Maybe THAT's why I have such a problem with some of the
    people here....

    I've been doing things THIS way. Any OTHER way is wrong...
    even if my data is XX years old...

    Mike
     
  18. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    JP? writes:

    >> Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
    >> tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
    >> tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
    >> test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
    >> intend to ride.

    > I'm not suggesting that you should go start riding
    > tubulars to test tape. What I am suggesting is that if you
    > are going to imply that you know something about current
    > tubular tire tape, you had either better go out and get
    > some data or shut the hell up since as it stands now you
    > don't know what you are talking about, or at the very
    > least qualify your posts with a statement that everything
    > you know about tubular tire tape is based on experience
    > from thirty years ago. (Similar to the age of my
    > experience, BTW, but at least I have enough imagination to
    > conceive of the possibility that my experience is no
    > longer of any value, except perhaps for entertainment.)

    There are many technical branches in which the technology
    reached the end of the line, especially ones that are no
    longer current so the interest in restarting development
    isn't there. The tape problem is not one so much about the
    quality of tape and its embedded adhesive as it is of
    impregnated cloth (on a reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape
    fabric that is exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it
    doesn't contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it
    such an adhesive it won't do the job because the mobility
    required of the adhesive is exactly what one doesn't want
    under a tire. If it dries when in place then it doesn't have
    enough exposed adhesive volume to change a tire.

    >>> You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
    >>> instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

    >> I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have
    >> noticed that I approach postings that have nothing more
    >> than smart ass carping laced with misinformation, with a
    >> different tone than ones that want to discuss a subject.
    >> The whole "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps
    >> looking for me to offer a contradiction somewhere is so
    >> obvious it steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2
    >> to excess.

    > I happen to think you have made some good points about
    > some things. In particular, I think your theory about
    > anodization of rims leading to cracking is well supported.
    > It makes sense and you refer to solid research to back it
    > up; I think the same is true about your theories on stress
    > relieving.

    The hazards of anodizing don't need research to back them
    up. Just inspecting a magnified surface of an anodized rim
    ought to be enough when all the cracks are visible even
    without magnification. When this thing first hit the market
    I pointed it out immediately and got the same BS we've seen
    here for years. People just like colored rims and to hell
    with the draw backs. So I took cross section of an equally
    used (brake wear) MA-2 and MA-40, had them polished and
    microscopically inspected to show how the cracks in
    anodizing propagated into the metal and caused deep fissures
    that would soon fail as the remainder of that rim did. The
    MA-2 had no cracks, infant or advanced.

    > That is not the case with this stuff about tubular tire
    > tape, however (and I don't think you have made a good case
    > that glue is the source of squirm and rolling resistance
    > in tubulars, either); it is not a question of
    > contradiction, it is whether you show any evidence that
    > you know what you are talking about, and, unfortunately,
    > unless we restrict ourselves to discussing the state of
    > the art of tire tape in the '70s, you do not.

    I expect those who wish to challenge my assessment to show
    cause why they take an opposing view rather than me to
    defend what I said against open ended challenges that offer
    no alternative mode of failure or success. Just the fact
    that tape is used only by tootle around town folk ought to
    be an indicator. You don't find any professional racers
    using the stuff now or then when I tried it. I have worked
    with tubulars to great detail and am intimately familiar
    with their manufacture, repair and use. You might want to
    read the articles in the FAQ that I offered on them.

    > (On the tire squirm you have an interesting theory to
    > explain some experimental results, but not enough evidence
    > to prove it, at least to me. In particular, I still have
    > questions about the effect of the way the tire is glued
    > on- it could be an extraneous variable. I think there was
    > an implication in one of your posts that the tires in the
    > experiment in question may have only had glue applied to
    > the rim and not the tire, because that is how people do it
    > in the real world to make it possible to remove tires on
    > the road.)

    Knowing the nature of the tubular, especially the ones
    tested, it is inconceivable where else the energy went. The
    tires were mounted by people who know how to do it. I expect
    other observant users, on seeing the data, to hit themselves
    on the brow and exclaim "Oh now I see!" because all the
    users around here who did their own work recall that the
    rims all had cloth patterned wear marks in the aluminum and
    that the base tapes wore out, something that was evident
    when patching because the base tape must be pulled off the
    tire. These often came off in three parts, essential worn
    through at the edge of the glue area.

    I think with more experience with tubulars, the road kind
    with rubberized strips you would also arrive at this
    conclusion. I am assuming you repair your tires, don't you?
    Tires that wore like this, pulled off the rim with half the
    glue on the base tape, the rest on the rim, when changing
    tires. That is the separation was in the glue, not at the
    rim or tire. That was enough evidence that rubberized base
    tapes stuck firmly on partially cured glue applied only to
    the rim. Track tires with bare cloth are intended for hard
    glue (shellac) that would not work with a rubberized strip.
    Such tires could either be coated with hard glue or road
    glue to match the coating on the rim. Were they rubberized,
    they cold only be used with road glue to any effect because
    shellac doesn't adhere well to rubber.

    > As to whether my posts are laced with misinformation, well
    > no one's perfect, but if you go back over the content of
    > my posts directed at you, you will see that there if very
    > little information in them. They are *in essence*
    > questions, and then criticisms that you present no current
    > evidence to support your rants against tubular tires.

    Well why do you hide then. Your posts keep hammering away at
    tried and true experience by an observing engineer who
    doesn't post idly on conjecture. You might have noticed
    that. I've been writing here for a long time and people of
    your ilk have been sniping away trying to defend bicycle
    myth and lore that has no basis. These folks have not yet
    found their holy grail where there is a hole in the
    information offered. As I said, I've seen this routine
    before the internet when my book was first published and the
    tone hasn't changed in more than 20 years.

    >> A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
    >> constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
    >> attributing their stupidity to their aliases.

    > You hugely overestimate your self-importance.

    Oh! Would you care to explain how you come to that
    conclusion?

    > I have a number of reasons for posting anonymously, and
    > nothing about them has anything to do with the content of
    > any posts on any subject so trivial as the ones that have
    > gotten you so upset (which is not to minimize the
    > significance of rolling a tire). It makes me smile a
    > little to think about you thinking that I post anonymously
    > just so I can criticize *you*. Talk about egos. Whew!

    How about explaining those reasons or even one of them to
    the newsgroup where the majority of writers names are known.
    You don't have to post your e-mail address. Anyway, it's not
    that you criticize, but rather that you support myth and
    lore and ignore valid proof and logical analysis to the
    contrary. Not everyone must die on the battlefield to
    recognize the brutality of war and its failings. Likewise,
    not every technical point must be measured to prove its
    existence. Some are more apparent than others and some
    observers are more blind to evidence than others.

    >> If you don't believe it just go back and check under what
    >> names the most insulting and stupid posts were made.

    > Jobst Brandt? Insulting: hands down winner. If not stupid,
    > at least stubborn to a degree that functionally limits the
    > application of your native intelligence.

    Well that's a great defense of your position on rim
    glue, isn't it.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  19. Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same as
    you described below when you use tubular cement? And If so,
    couldn't one peel off the backing off the tubular tire and
    just use the cloth glue tape?

    If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider to
    change the tape, the same as one who uses cement would have
    to re-glue the tires to the rim. -tom

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... The tape
    problem is
    > not one so much about the quality of tape and its embedded
    > adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a reel)
    > furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is exposed to the
    > atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't contain an adhesive
    > that is perpetually soft. If it such an adhesive it won't
    > do the job because the mobility required of the adhesive
    > is exactly what one doesn't want under a tire. If it dries
    > when in place then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive
    > volume to change a tire.
     
  20. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same
    > as you described below when you use tubular cement? And If
    > so, couldn't one peel off the backing off the tubular tire
    > and just use the cloth glue tape?
    >
    > If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider
    > to change the tape, the same as one who uses cement would
    > have to re-glue the tires to the rim. -tom
    >
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]... The tape
    > problem is
    > > not one so much about the quality of tape and its
    > > embedded adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a
    > > reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is
    > > exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't
    > > contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it
    > > such an adhesive it won't do the job because the
    > > mobility required of the adhesive is exactly what one
    > > doesn't want under a tire. If it dries when in place
    > > then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive volume to
    > > change a tire.
    > >

    Dear Tom,

    Even if it turns out that there's an excellent explanation,
    it can't be as good as your question.

    Thanks,

    Carl Fogel
     
Loading...
Loading...