Gluing Tape (was Tubular rim glue ???)

For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the Tufo
stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance than
regular glue?

-- Jens

 

Jens Kurt Heycke writes:

> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
> than regular glue?

I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't stick
well and noting that among riders, no one else I met used
it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a tire
adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades where I
had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
well was never a consideration for me.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
>
> > For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
> > rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
> > Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
> > than regular glue?
>
> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't stick
> well and noting that among riders, no one else I met used
> it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a tire
> adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades where I
> had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
> temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
> well was never a consideration for me.

You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right? Which
kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for cyclo-
cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73 degrees F)"
or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track and
triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

JP

 

"JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
> >
> > > For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
> > > rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
> > > Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
> > > than regular glue?
> >
> > I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
> > stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
> > met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
> > a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades
> > where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
> > customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
> > whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.
>
> You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right? Which
> kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for cyclo-
> cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73 degrees F)"
> or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track and
> triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is best
for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to get off
the road by 10am during most of the racing season. Seems
like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
standard if they don't read the fine print.

-- Jens

 

Jens Kurt Heycke <[email protected]> wrote:
> "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
> > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
> > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
> > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
> > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
> > temperatures"?

> Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is
> best for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to
> get off the road by 10am during most of the racing season.
> Seems like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
> standard if they don't read the fine print.

Cyclocross is a winter sport. In Europe it's pretty cold
during cross season. The beginning of the season can be hot
in the Western US.

I have heard that the Tufo tape is different from the older
types of tubular tape, and that for racing it is often used
in addition to glue, not instead of it. But I have never
used either type of tape.

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"Jens Kurt Heycke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > [email protected] wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Jens Kurt Heycke writes:
> > >
> > > > For those who believe that rim glue results in
> > > > higher rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape
> > > > (e.g. the Tufo stuff) results in more or less
> > > > rolling resistance than regular glue?
> > >
> > > I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
> > > stick well and noting that among riders, no one else
> > > I met used it, I was easily convinced it was
> > > worthless as a tire adhesive, especially when braking
> > > on steep grades where I had tire creep before the rim
> > > got up to customary temperature for such a hill.
> > > Therefore, whether it rolls well was never a
> > > consideration for me.
> >
> > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
> > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
> > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
> > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
> > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
> > temperatures"?
>
> Good question. It's kinda funny that the "standard" is
> best for temps "up to 73". Even where I live, I'd have to
> get off the road by 10am during most of the racing season.
> Seems like a lot of people might be misled into buying the
> standard if they don't read the fine print.
>
>
>
> -- Jens

Dear Jens, Jobst, and JP,

And here I thought that things had gotten completely out of
hand with rim glue . . .

http://www.tufotires.com/tufo_activated_tubular_tire_glui.-
htm

http://www.tufotires.com/extreme_gluing_strips.htm

If nothing else, Jobst should enjoy the mascot on the first
glue link.

There is only one tape, and its name is duct!

Carl Fogel

 

JP snipes anonymously:

>>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
>>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
>>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
>>> than regular glue?

>> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
>> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
>> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as a
>> tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep grades
>> where I had tire creep before the rim got up to customary
>> temperature for such a hill. Therefore, whether it rolls
>> well was never a consideration for me.

> You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?

Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but various
others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong from the
start unless it is a fully coated strip like one pulled out
of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably attach a
tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of that and a
lot of other things that were part of the myth and lore of
those days.

> Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly for
> cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
> degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races, track
> and triathlon, suitable for high climate temperatures"?

Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance and
that is melting temperature from braking. When mounting
tires in winter, a short hot braking run would glue any tire
in a hurry. Having tires for various climates rings of so
much BS I can't take it.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]et>...
> JP snipes anonymously:
>
> >>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
> >>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
> >>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
> >>> than regular glue?
>
> >> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
> >> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
> >> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
> >> a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep
> >> grades where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
> >> customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
> >> whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.
>
> > You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?
>
> Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but
> various others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong
> from the start unless it is a fully coated strip like one
> pulled out of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably
> attach a tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of
> that and a lot of other things that were part of the myth
> and lore of those days.

Your experience is completely useless in evaluating the
TUFO tape, then, which is too bad, because I would like to
hear more about it. Why would you say that rolled tape
cannot reasonably attach a tubular? (TUFO does not appear
to be a roll, but it may have the same deficiencies as a
roll from your perspective.) It seems likely that out of
the universe of all possible two-sided tapes (including
known and yet-to-be-discovered or yet-to-be-tried), there
might exist at least one that would hold a tire on tight
even in your extreme tests.

> > Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
> > for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
> > degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
> > track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
> > temperatures"?
>
> Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance and
> that is melting temperature from braking. When mounting
> tires in winter, a short hot braking run would glue any
> tire in a hurry. Having tires for various climates rings
> of so much BS I can't take it.

If the tape is designed to be used under conditions that do
not approach the melting temp from braking on extreme
downhills it might be easier to remove the tire. Just a
guess, but there could be a legitimate reason. We don't know
from the blurb whether the supposed operating temperatures
correlate with better temperature performance on a rim under
braking. What is encouraging is that a manufacturer has in
some way looked at the temperature specifications of their
product. Does TUFO Extreme improve the temperature at which
it starts to melt? Is it significant in extended downhill
braking? I don't know and neither do you. It is apparent to
me that the conditions that cause a tire to shift are +3
standard deviations or more, and it seems very likely that a
relatively small improvement in heat resistance could shift
the temperature where the melting occurs to a range above
even what you encounter. In the complete lack of objective
data on this issue you simply do not have enough information
to have an informed opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test
it and get us some data, because that's what we need.

JP

 

JP snipes anonymously:

>>>>> For those who believe that rim glue results in higher
>>>>> rolling resistance, do you think gluing tape (e.g. the
>>>>> Tufo stuff) results in more or less rolling resistance
>>>>> than regular glue?

>>>> I tried it for a while but discovered that it didn't
>>>> stick well and noting that among riders, no one else I
>>>> met used it, I was easily convinced it was worthless as
>>>> a tire adhesive, especially when braking on steep
>>>> grades where I had tire creep before the rim got up to
>>>> customary temperature for such a hill. Therefore,
>>>> whether it rolls well was never a consideration for me.

>>> You are talking specifically about TUFO tape, right?

>> Wrong. When I rode tubulars, TUFO wasn't around but
>> various others were. The whole concept of tape is wrong
>> from the start unless it is a fully coated strip like one
>> pulled out of a paint can. Rolled tape cannot reasonably
>> attach a tubular. Trying several kinds convinced me of
>> that and a lot of other things that were part of the myth
>> and lore of those days.

> Your experience is completely useless in evaluating the
> TUFO tape, then, which is too bad, because I would like to
> hear more about it. Why would you say that rolled tape
> cannot reasonably attach a tubular? (TUFO does not appear
> to be a roll, but it may have the same deficiencies as a
> roll from your perspective.) It seems likely that out of
> the universe of all possible two-sided tapes (including
> known and yet-to-be-discovered or yet-to-be-tried), there
> might exist at least one that would hold a tire on tight
> even in your extreme tests.

Forget about the "experience" and consider what I said that
this experience made me consider. The formability and
adhesion of the liquid in the tape does not have the volume
to do any good, most of it being lost in the fabric of the
tape that performs no useful purpose once the tape is in
place. It is merely a carrier of glue in a pre-packaged form
in which the package interferes with the task at hand.

>>> Which kind did you try, "TUFO Standard intended mostly
>>> for cyclo-cross, for temperatures up to 23 degrees C (73
>>> degrees F)" or TUFO Extreme intended for road races,
>>> track and triathlon, suitable for high climate
>>> temperatures"?

>> Good rim glue has only one temperature of significance
>> and that is melting temperature from braking. When
>> mounting tires in winter, a short hot braking run would
>> glue any tire in a hurry. Having tires for various
>> climates rings of so much BS I can't take it.

> If the tape is designed to be used under conditions that
> do not approach the melting temp from braking on extreme
> downhills it might be easier to remove the tire. Just a
> guess, but there could be a legitimate reason. We don't
> know from the blurb whether the supposed operating
> temperatures correlate with better temperature performance
> on a rim under braking.

The glue should have a high enough melting temperature to
protect riders from it's occurrence yet be low enough that
the tire could be seated by heat. Meanwhile, road glue must
be soft enough to allow a tire change and re-adhere
reasonably. There is where it gets caught between a hard
rock and a place (oops). The volatile solvent in the glue is
designed to have that effect before it escapes. Just the
same, the glue remains a thermoplastic that will soften with
braking heat.

> What is encouraging is that a manufacturer has in some way
> looked at the temperature specifications of their product.
> Does TUFO Extreme improve the temperature at which it
> starts to melt? Is it significant in extended downhill
> braking? I don't know and neither do you.

Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell us
about it! I told you what I know about it and with that and
your regular use of tubulars, it should be no problems to
analyze this instead of telling me how I don't know a
tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or otherwise.

> It is apparent to me that the conditions that cause a tire
> to shift are +3 standard deviations or more, and it seems
> very likely that a relatively small improvement in heat
> resistance could shift the temperature where the melting
> occurs to a range above even what you encounter. In the
> complete lack of objective data on this issue you simply
> do not have enough information to have an informed
> opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test it and get us some
> data, because that's what we need.

You sound like a standard deviant of this newsgroup. Get
some data!

...and stop whining (anonymously).

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> JP snipes anonymously:

[snip]

>
> > It is apparent to me that the conditions that cause a
> > tire to shift are +3 standard deviations or more, and it
> > seems very likely that a relatively small improvement in
> > heat resistance could shift the temperature where the
> > melting occurs to a range above even what you encounter.
> > In the complete lack of objective data on this issue you
> > simply do not have enough information to have an
> > informed opinion. If you have a hypothesis, test it and
> > get us some data, because that's what we need.
>
> You sound like a standard deviant of this newsgroup. Get
> some data!
>
> ...and stop whining (anonymously).
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected]

Dear Jobst,

Don't need no stinkin' data, eh?

I wish that I could aspire to be the standard deviant (we
all have our dreams and that would be a wonderful
nickname), but alas, I don't know enough about statistics
to deserve it.

JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-grade
science class.

Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
supporting them.

You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

Carl Fogel

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell us
> about it! I told you what I know about it and with that
> and your regular use of tubulars, it should be no problems
> to analyze this instead of telling me how I don't know a
> tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or otherwise.

While I think you probably do know the difference between a
tubular and a tube of toothpaste, I think you are completely
ignorant with regards to contemporary tubular glue tape; yet
your earlier post on the subject in this thread implied
otherwise.

I will certainly consider TUFO tape but would also like to
hear from someone who has some knowledge of its performace
before trying it. In fact, I could probably use it for
months if not years and never discover any deficiencies
since I do almost all of my riding on a converted rail path
which therefore has only the mildest of grades. However on
occasion I do take my bike to the mountains, and would not
want to learn then that there are problems with it. One of
the results of your ranting about melting glue has been
positive, I guess: I have concern about the issue where I
did not previously.

The problem with seat-of-the-pants testing of the melting
point of tubular glue, the kind that you did and suggested
that I do, is that you really don't learn very much, maybe
just enough for avoidance conditioning, which closes the
door on further experience. We don't know whether your
experiece is at all relevant to current glues and braking
systems or what the rim temperature was when it took place,
and now you are extrapolating from thirty year old data
that was almost worthless at the time to trash a product
that at least by appearance has little in common with those
that you had experience with. You have a lot of knowledge
about the technology of cycling, but don't kid yourself:
you have a lot more in common with the lore-masters than
you would care to admit.

Anonymously yours, JP

 

"JP" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Well sheee-it go out and try it and come back ant tell
> > us about it! I told you what I know about it and with
> > that and your regular use of tubulars, it should be no
> > problems to analyze this instead of telling me how I
> > don't know a tubular from a tube of tooth paste, Tufo or
> > otherwise.
>
> While I think you probably do know the difference between
> a tubular and a tube of toothpaste, I think you are
> completely ignorant with regards to contemporary tubular
> glue tape; yet your earlier post on the subject in this
> thread implied otherwise.

Don't be offended. Mr Brandt does not have the humble
phrase, "I don't know" in his repertoire. What he did
suggest is that your singular experience and its anecdotal
evidence will inform us of the universal principles of
adhering modern tubular tires to modern rims. Go ahead -
take the challenge. One week of riding ought to do it ...
--
Bonne route,

Sandy Paris FR

 

Carl Fogel writes:

> JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
> excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
> nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-grade
> science class.

Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.

> Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
> bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
> increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
> testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
> strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
> seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
> supporting them.

Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about tape
and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride tubulars
anymore and am not about to start again just to test tape
that I don't intend to use on tires I don't intend to ride.

> You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
> instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
ass carping laced with misinformation with a different tone
than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole "hide
behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me to offer
a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it steeenks. You saw
it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.

A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
attributing their stupidity to their aliases. If you don't
believe it just go back and check under what names the most
insulting and stupid posts were made.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Carl Fogel writes:
>
> > JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
> > excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
> > nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-
> > grade science class.
>
> Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.
>
> > Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
> > bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
> > increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
> > testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
> > strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
> > seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
> > supporting them.
>
> Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
> tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
> tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
> test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
> intend to ride.
>
> > You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
> > instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.
>
> I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
> that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
> ass carping laced with misinformation with a different
> tone than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole
> "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me
> to offer a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it
> steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.
>
> A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
> constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
> attributing their stupidity to their aliases. If you don't
> believe it just go back and check under what names the
> most insulting and stupid posts were made.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected]

Dear Jobst,

While it's not what you intended, thanks for sending me to
the bookshelf to look for a quote from "To Kill A
Mockingbird," which I hadn't read in thirty years and which
is still a fine read.

If you think twice about it, who comes to mind when we speak
of egos and insults on rec.bicycles.tech?

Carl Fogel

 

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Carl Fogel writes:
>
> > JP may be grossly mistaken (in which case he's in
> > excellent company), but your whining about his use of a
> > nom-de-web wouldn't pass for an argument in a sixth-
> > grade science class.
>
> Sniping anonymously isn't sixth grade, its second grade.
>
> > Sometimes--just sometimes--I wonder whether your amusing
> > bluster and habit of snarling like a prissy schoolmaster
> > increases in direct proportion to the lack of data and
> > testing. Your theories deserve consideration and often
> > strike me as sensible, but it's strange how insecure you
> > seem if--God forbid!--anyone asks for evidence
> > supporting them.
>
> Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
> tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
> tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
> test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
> intend to ride.

I'm not suggesting that you should go start riding tubulars
to test tape. What I am suggesting is that if you are going
to imply that you know something about current tubular tire
tape, you had either better go out and get some data or shut
the hell up since as it stands now you don't know what you
are talking about, or at the very least qualify your posts
with a statement that everything you know about tubular tire
tape is based on experience from thirty years ago. (Similar
to the age of my experience, BTW, but at least I have enough
imagination to conceive of the possibility that my
experience is no longer of any value, except perhaps for
entertainment.)

> > You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
> > instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.
>
> I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have noticed
> that I approach posting that have nothing more than smart
> ass carping laced with misinformation with a different
> tone than ones that want to discuss a subject. The whole
> "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps looking for me
> to offer a contradiction somewhere is so obvious it
> steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2 to excess.

I happen to think you have made some good points about some
things. In particular, I think your theory about anodization
of rims leading to cracking is well supported. It makes
sense and you refer to solid research to back it up; I
thinkg the same is true about your theories on stress
relieving. That is not the case with this stuff about
tubular tire tape, however (and I don't think you have made
a good case that glue is the source of squirm and rolling
resistance in tubulars, either); it is not a question of
contradiction, it is whether you show any evidence that you
know what you are talking about, and, unfortunately, unless
we restrict ourselves to discussing the state of the art of
tire tape in the '70s, you do not. (On the tire squirm you
have an interesting theory to explain some experimental
results, but not enough evidence to prove it, at least to
me. In particular, I still have questions about the effect
of the way the tire is glued on- it could be an
extraneous variable. I think there was an implication
in one of your posts that the tires in the experiment
in question may have only had glue applied to the rim
and not the tire, because that is how people do it in
the real world to make it possible to remove tires on
the road.)

As to whether my posts are laced with misinformation, well
no one's perfect, but if you go back over the content of my
posts directed at you, you will see that there if very
little information in them. They are *in essence* questions,
and then criticisms that you present no current evidence to
support your rants against tubular tires.

> A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
> constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
> attributing their stupidity to their aliases.

You hugely overestimate your self-importance. I have a
number of reasons for posting anonymously, and nothing about
them has anything to do with the content of any posts on any
subject so trivial as the ones that have gotten you so upset
(which is not to minimize the significance of rolling a
tire). It makes me smile a little to think about you
thinking that I post anonymously just so I can criticize
*you*. Talk about egos. Whew!

> If you don't believe it just go back and check under what
> names the most insulting and stupid posts were made.

Jobst Brandt? Insulting: hands down winner. If not stupid,
at least stubborn to a degree that functionally limits the
application of your native intelligence.

JP

 

<snip> If not stupid, at least stubborn to a degree that
functionally limits the application of your native
intelligence.
>
> JP

Maybe THAT's why I have such a problem with some of the
people here....

I've been doing things THIS way. Any OTHER way is wrong...
even if my data is XX years old...

Mike

 

<snip> If not stupid, at least stubborn to a degree that
functionally limits the application of your native
intelligence.
>
> JP

Maybe THAT's why I have such a problem with some of the
people here....

I've been doing things THIS way. Any OTHER way is wrong...
even if my data is XX years old...

Mike

 

JP? writes:

>> Why don't you go back and read what I had to say about
>> tape and the test I gave some of them. I don't ride
>> tubulars anymore and am not about to start again just to
>> test tape that I don't intend to use on tires I don't
>> intend to ride.

> I'm not suggesting that you should go start riding
> tubulars to test tape. What I am suggesting is that if you
> are going to imply that you know something about current
> tubular tire tape, you had either better go out and get
> some data or shut the hell up since as it stands now you
> don't know what you are talking about, or at the very
> least qualify your posts with a statement that everything
> you know about tubular tire tape is based on experience
> from thirty years ago. (Similar to the age of my
> experience, BTW, but at least I have enough imagination to
> conceive of the possibility that my experience is no
> longer of any value, except perhaps for entertainment.)

There are many technical branches in which the technology
reached the end of the line, especially ones that are no
longer current so the interest in restarting development
isn't there. The tape problem is not one so much about the
quality of tape and its embedded adhesive as it is of
impregnated cloth (on a reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape
fabric that is exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it
doesn't contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it
such an adhesive it won't do the job because the mobility
required of the adhesive is exactly what one doesn't want
under a tire. If it dries when in place then it doesn't have
enough exposed adhesive volume to change a tire.

>>> You can do better than this. Try posting with a smile
>>> instead of a sneer. The pay's the same.

>> I guess you have a biased filter. You may not have
>> noticed that I approach postings that have nothing more
>> than smart ass carping laced with misinformation, with a
>> different tone than ones that want to discuss a subject.
>> The whole "hide behind the bushes" group that keeps
>> looking for me to offer a contradiction somewhere is so
>> obvious it steeenks. You saw it on the crack in an MA-2
>> to excess.

> I happen to think you have made some good points about
> some things. In particular, I think your theory about
> anodization of rims leading to cracking is well supported.
> It makes sense and you refer to solid research to back it
> up; I think the same is true about your theories on stress
> relieving.

The hazards of anodizing don't need research to back them
up. Just inspecting a magnified surface of an anodized rim
ought to be enough when all the cracks are visible even
without magnification. When this thing first hit the market
I pointed it out immediately and got the same BS we've seen
here for years. People just like colored rims and to hell
with the draw backs. So I took cross section of an equally
used (brake wear) MA-2 and MA-40, had them polished and
microscopically inspected to show how the cracks in
anodizing propagated into the metal and caused deep fissures
that would soon fail as the remainder of that rim did. The
MA-2 had no cracks, infant or advanced.

> That is not the case with this stuff about tubular tire
> tape, however (and I don't think you have made a good case
> that glue is the source of squirm and rolling resistance
> in tubulars, either); it is not a question of
> contradiction, it is whether you show any evidence that
> you know what you are talking about, and, unfortunately,
> unless we restrict ourselves to discussing the state of
> the art of tire tape in the '70s, you do not.

I expect those who wish to challenge my assessment to show
cause why they take an opposing view rather than me to
defend what I said against open ended challenges that offer
no alternative mode of failure or success. Just the fact
that tape is used only by tootle around town folk ought to
be an indicator. You don't find any professional racers
using the stuff now or then when I tried it. I have worked
with tubulars to great detail and am intimately familiar
with their manufacture, repair and use. You might want to
read the articles in the FAQ that I offered on them.

> (On the tire squirm you have an interesting theory to
> explain some experimental results, but not enough evidence
> to prove it, at least to me. In particular, I still have
> questions about the effect of the way the tire is glued
> on- it could be an extraneous variable. I think there was
> an implication in one of your posts that the tires in the
> experiment in question may have only had glue applied to
> the rim and not the tire, because that is how people do it
> in the real world to make it possible to remove tires on
> the road.)

Knowing the nature of the tubular, especially the ones
tested, it is inconceivable where else the energy went. The
tires were mounted by people who know how to do it. I expect
other observant users, on seeing the data, to hit themselves
on the brow and exclaim "Oh now I see!" because all the
users around here who did their own work recall that the
rims all had cloth patterned wear marks in the aluminum and
that the base tapes wore out, something that was evident
when patching because the base tape must be pulled off the
tire. These often came off in three parts, essential worn
through at the edge of the glue area.

I think with more experience with tubulars, the road kind
with rubberized strips you would also arrive at this
conclusion. I am assuming you repair your tires, don't you?
Tires that wore like this, pulled off the rim with half the
glue on the base tape, the rest on the rim, when changing
tires. That is the separation was in the glue, not at the
rim or tire. That was enough evidence that rubberized base
tapes stuck firmly on partially cured glue applied only to
the rim. Track tires with bare cloth are intended for hard
glue (shellac) that would not work with a rubberized strip.
Such tires could either be coated with hard glue or road
glue to match the coating on the rim. Were they rubberized,
they cold only be used with road glue to any effect because
shellac doesn't adhere well to rubber.

> As to whether my posts are laced with misinformation, well
> no one's perfect, but if you go back over the content of
> my posts directed at you, you will see that there if very
> little information in them. They are *in essence*
> questions, and then criticisms that you present no current
> evidence to support your rants against tubular tires.

Well why do you hide then. Your posts keep hammering away at
tried and true experience by an observing engineer who
doesn't post idly on conjecture. You might have noticed
that. I've been writing here for a long time and people of
your ilk have been sniping away trying to defend bicycle
myth and lore that has no basis. These folks have not yet
found their holy grail where there is a hole in the
information offered. As I said, I've seen this routine
before the internet when my book was first published and the
tone hasn't changed in more than 20 years.

>> A reason why these people post anonymously is that they
>> constantly embarrass themselves and shield their egos by
>> attributing their stupidity to their aliases.

> You hugely overestimate your self-importance.

Oh! Would you care to explain how you come to that
conclusion?

> I have a number of reasons for posting anonymously, and
> nothing about them has anything to do with the content of
> any posts on any subject so trivial as the ones that have
> gotten you so upset (which is not to minimize the
> significance of rolling a tire). It makes me smile a
> little to think about you thinking that I post anonymously
> just so I can criticize *you*. Talk about egos. Whew!

How about explaining those reasons or even one of them to
the newsgroup where the majority of writers names are known.
You don't have to post your e-mail address. Anyway, it's not
that you criticize, but rather that you support myth and
lore and ignore valid proof and logical analysis to the
contrary. Not everyone must die on the battlefield to
recognize the brutality of war and its failings. Likewise,
not every technical point must be measured to prove its
existence. Some are more apparent than others and some
observers are more blind to evidence than others.

>> If you don't believe it just go back and check under what
>> names the most insulting and stupid posts were made.

> Jobst Brandt? Insulting: hands down winner. If not stupid,
> at least stubborn to a degree that functionally limits the
> application of your native intelligence.

Well that's a great defense of your position on rim
glue, isn't it.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same as
you described below when you use tubular cement? And If so,
couldn't one peel off the backing off the tubular tire and
just use the cloth glue tape?

If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider to
change the tape, the same as one who uses cement would have
to re-glue the tires to the rim. -tom

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... The tape
problem is
> not one so much about the quality of tape and its embedded
> adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a reel)
> furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is exposed to the
> atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't contain an adhesive
> that is perpetually soft. If it such an adhesive it won't
> do the job because the mobility required of the adhesive
> is exactly what one doesn't want under a tire. If it dries
> when in place then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive
> volume to change a tire.

 

"Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same
> as you described below when you use tubular cement? And If
> so, couldn't one peel off the backing off the tubular tire
> and just use the cloth glue tape?
>
> If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider
> to change the tape, the same as one who uses cement would
> have to re-glue the tires to the rim. -tom
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]... The tape
> problem is
> > not one so much about the quality of tape and its
> > embedded adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a
> > reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is
> > exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't
> > contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it
> > such an adhesive it won't do the job because the
> > mobility required of the adhesive is exactly what one
> > doesn't want under a tire. If it dries when in place
> > then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive volume to
> > change a tire.
> >

Dear Tom,

Even if it turns out that there's an excellent explanation,
it can't be as good as your question.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel