Gluing Tape (was Tubular rim glue ???)

[Tom Nakashima]

Over the years I have learned a lot about the bicycle from
reading a J. Brandt post. He has saved me money and
maintenance in caring for my bike. Sometimes during my lunch
break, if I have a bike related question, I'll re-read some
of his postings in the FAQ, he knows the bicycle well. If I
can't find the answers in the FAQ, I'll ask. In this case I
do have a wheelset with tubulars that I ride on occasion,
and which probably needs re-gluing. I've been interested in
the tubular glue tape only because I hate the glue mess.
This is what I have found on the internet on tubular glue
tape, perhaps it is a little "Mickey Mouse" http://www.worl-
dclasscycles.com/tufo_tubular_gluing_strip.htm -tom

"Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same
> > as you
described
> > below when you use tubular cement? And If so, couldn't
> > one peel off the backing off the tubular tire and just
> > use the cloth glue tape?
> >
> > If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the
> > rider to change the tape, the same as one who uses
> > cement would have to re-glue the tires to
the
> > rim. -tom
> >
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]... The tape
> > problem is
> > > not one so much about the quality of tape and its
> > > embedded adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a
> > > reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is
> > > exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't
> > > contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it
> > > such an adhesive it won't do the job because the
> > > mobility required of the adhesive is exactly what one
> > > doesn't want under a tire. If it dries when in place
> > > then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive volume to
> > > change a tire.
> > >
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> Even if it turns out that there's an excellent
> explanation, it can't be as good as your question.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl Fogel

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Tom Nakashima writes:

>> The tape problem is not one so much about the quality of
>> tape and its embedded adhesive as it is of impregnated
>> cloth (on a reel) furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that
>> is exposed to the atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't
>> contain an adhesive that is perpetually soft. If it such
>> an adhesive it won't do the job because the mobility
>> required of the adhesive is exactly what one doesn't want
>> under a tire. If it dries when in place then it doesn't
>> have enough exposed adhesive volume to change a tire.

> Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same
> as you described when you use tubular cement?

No, because when applying tubular glue to a bare base tape,
one puts enough on that a contiguous layer of adhesive
remains on the surface rather than a cloth that is
impregnated with it.

> And If so, couldn't one peel off the backing off the
> tubular tire and just use the cloth glue tape?

That would be risky considering that base tapes wear
through. Rim adhesive tapes are generally thinner and have a
weaker mesh considering that they have no other purpose than
to contain adhesive that the user is loath to work with. The
purpose of tape is a convenience rather than a better glue.

> If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider
> to change the tape, the same as one who uses cement would
> have to re-glue the tires to the rim.

How dry is too dry. My experience was that when new it was
poor and only got worse. Besides, with a flat on the road,
the tape needed to be replaced because it separated partly
from the tire and partly from the rim and made a tangle.

What do you use to keep tubulars on your wheels?

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Tom Nakashima writes:

> In this case I do have a wheelset with tubulars that I
> ride on occasion, and which probably needs re-gluing. I've
> been interested in the tubular glue tape only because I
> hate the glue mess.

> This is what I have found on the internet on tubular glue
> tape, perhaps it is a little "Mickey Mouse"

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/tufo_tubular_gluing_strip.h-
tm

From that web site:

# Just wanted to let you know how happy I am with the
# tubular rim tape! It's worth every penny and then some.
# Can't believe how quick, easy, and especially clean it is
# to use --- makes me consider going back to sew ups on
# every one of my bikes!!!

There you have it. The purpose of this product, now as it
was 50 years ago, is convenience for the user while, as I
mentioned, losing the principal goal, that of securing the
tire reliably. My experience was also that thermal tire
creep was unacceptable even on short descents. Meanwhile, we
are still waiting for a real user of the Tufo tape to tell
us how easily a tire can be pulled off the rim. For me, that
was real proof of failure.

I still have the tin cans the tape came in from Vorwerk
adhesives. Nice small parts containers, they.

"VORWERK Felgen_klebeband fuer Schlauchreifen"

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Mike S.]

<snip>
> There you have it. The purpose of this product, now as it
> was 50 years ago, is convenience for the user while, as I
> mentioned, losing the principal goal, that of securing the
> tire reliably. My experience was also that thermal tire
> creep was unacceptable even on short descents. Meanwhile,
> we are still waiting for a real user of the Tufo tape to
> tell us how easily a tire can be pulled off the rim. For
> me, that was real proof of failure.

Go surf on over to www.roadbikereview.com. There's a thread
there about the Tufo tape in one of the discussions.

Mike

 

[carlfogel]

Originally posted by Mike S.
<snip>
> There you have it. The purpose of this product, now as it
> was 50 years ago, is convenience for the user while, as I
> mentioned, losing the principal goal, that of securing the
> tire reliably. My experience was also that thermal tire
> creep was unacceptable even on short descents. Meanwhile,
> we are still waiting for a real user of the Tufo tape to
> tell us how easily a tire can be pulled off the rim. For
> me, that was real proof of failure.

Go surf on over to www.roadbikereview.com. There's a thread
there about the Tufo tape in one of the discussions.

Mike

Dear Mike,

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.

I plan to use the line at the very end about
why open your Coke bottle with a chainsaw.

See below or try:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=2163&highlight=tufo

or http://tinyurl.com/2kz64

Sincerely,

Ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen

1 Day Ago #1 jw25 RoadBikeReview Member
Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 18 Tufo gluing tape - great stuff.

I just removed a tubular glued with Tufo's standard gluing tape. For anyone who questions the holding strength, dont - it took me 5 minutes to get the thing off, and that was after prying a section up with a tire lever. Setup was a Tufo S3 Lite on a Zipp 440 rim, with not glue residue on either. I glued in last July, and kept it inflated at 120-130 psi until last night, when I removed it.
Most of the tape stayed on the tire, save the section where I needed to pry it off. It seems lateral movements will scrape off some glue, though it was easy enough to remove later. The glue residue appreas good enough to restick the tire, though the tire itself is worn out - skidding on these wears the rubber very fast.
I know Tufo makes an "Extreme" version of this, for hot and cold temps, but the normal is plenty sticky, and much easier to apply than standard tubie glue.

jw25


1 Day Ago #2 DougSloan Addict
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 226 same here

I've found it holds much better than normal glue, almost too well if you are changing a tire in a panic in a race. Now I leave a 2" section unglued (I cut the tape) opposite the stem.

Doug

DougSloan
View Public Profile

1 Day Ago #3 jw25 RoadBikeReview Member
Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 18 Quote:

Originally Posted by DougSloan
I've found it holds much better than normal glue, almost too well if you are changing a tire in a panic in a race. Now I leave a 2" section unglued (I cut the tape) opposite the stem.

Doug

Excellent idea, Doug - the triathlon gluing method. I think I'll do this when I fit a fresh tire to this wheel, as soon as I get it tensioned and trued.

On a related note, I wish Tufo made bulk rolls of this stuff. I always have 5-6 inches left over, which are basically useless. The stuff is pretty tacky, so storage would be a problem, and I guess I'm not changing tires that often, but for a high-level amateur team, it would make great sense.
Jon.

jw25

1 Day Ago #4 MShaw RoadBikeReview Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 111

You guys should surf on over to the rec.bicycles.tech newsgroup and tell this to Jobst Brandt. He's been bashing tapes lately...

Mike
I'll move back to VA when y'all change the weather!

MShaw

1 Day Ago #5 nazgul DonRacer
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 I wouldn't do this...

last year I bought a set of 404s from a teammate who was using them for triathlons. The glue job looked OK so I didn't re-glue the tires and rolled the rear in a crit. After inspection it rolled exactly at the stem where there were 2 inches of little to no glue. To be fair, they were glued using traditional conti glue. I guess it's OK if you only use them for time trials/triathlon, but if you plan on cornering at speed save yourself some skin and glue all the way.
Just my .02

nazgul

22 Hours Ago #6 AllUpHill RoadBikeReview Member
Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17
Agreed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got my introduction to tubulars using the Tufo tape last year, and I never realized what a gift it is. Clean installation and a tough bond. I just finished my first gluing job using standard cement. What an unholy hassle. I'm sure the traditional process goes more smoothly with practice, but why open your coke bottle with a chainsaw?

 

[Jens Kurt Heyck]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>. . . There you have it. The purpose of this product, now
> as it was 50 years ago, is convenience for the user
> while, as I mentioned, losing the principal goal, that of
> securing the tire reliably. My experience was also that
> thermal tire creep was unacceptable even on short
> descents. Meanwhile, we are still waiting for a real user
> of the Tufo tape to tell us how easily a tire can be
> pulled off the rim. For me, that was real proof of
> failure.
>

I plan to use the Tufo extreme on my wheels next week. The
following week I'll when I'm in the Bay Area, I'll ride one
brake down Page Mill or Old La Honda and then see if I can
pull the tire off. Carbon rims... so they should get pretty
hot. Fair test?

-- Jens

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Jens Kurt Heycke writes:

>> There you have it. The purpose of this product, now as it
>> was 50 years ago, is convenience for the user while, as I
>> mentioned, losing the principal goal, that of securing
>> the tire reliably. My experience was also that thermal
>> tire creep was unacceptable even on short descents.
>> Meanwhile, we are still waiting for a real user of the
>> Tufo tape to tell us how easily a tire can be pulled off
>> the rim. For me, that was real proof of failure.

> I plan to use the Tufo extreme on my wheels next week. The
> following week when I'm in the Bay Area, I'll ride one
> brake down Page Mill or Old La Honda and then see if I can
> pull the tire off. Carbon rims... so they should get
> pretty hot. Fair test?

Not too good if you are fast because it requires hard
braking in only one place on Page Mill. Besides, I don't
believe carbon fiber conducts well. Just the same, try
Redwood Gulch from HWY9 to Stevens Canyon or better yet
Black Road from HWY5 (Skyline just past Castle Rock) to Los
Gatos. More locally, near Skylonda (HWY5 & HWY84), Grandview
Dr. goes down from a half mile east of the JCT descending to
Espinosa that descends steeply to Schilling Lake. That would
be a good test. From Schilling lake, a park road/trail goes
almost level out to HWY84.

The only times I got tubular glue problems on Page Mill
Rd was when I followed my six year old son down riding
the brake at 10-20mph. That puts all the potential energy
into the rim instead of blowing it away in the wind at
higher speed.

Mountain roads that are steep and slow are the killers:

http://tinyurl.com/pd86

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Jp]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Well that's a great defense of your position on rim glue,
> isn't it.

My position on rim glue is simply that you don't present
enough evidence to support your theory. That's all. Gluing
technique is a variable that has not been adequately defined
let alone manipulated, and because of that I don't feel that
it is nailed down whether the squirm is the glue itself or
the lack of glue. For instance, it should be possible to
demonstrate that rolling resistance increases as the glue
layer gets thicker. If I was putting money on it, my guess
would be that rr decreases as glue is applied more
efficiently to achieve a tighter bond between tire and rim,
but then would at some point start to increase again as the
glue became heavy enough to allow significant squirming of
the glue itself. But I don't know.

I have been using tubulars almost exclusively for thirty
years, but I have to admit that they never got that much
thought from me. One thing that I find almost funny from my
present perspective of what I didn't know didn't hurt or
even bother me, is that I have used them on plenty of
mountain descents and never even noticed that I had a
problem, which is not to say that I didn't.

JP

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] wrote:

> ... The only times I got tubular glue problems on Page
> Mill Rd was when I followed my six year old son down
> riding the brake at 10-20mph. That puts all the potential
> energy into the rim instead of blowing it away in the wind
> at higher speed....

So there is absolutely no wind resistance while riding a
bicycle in the speed range of 10 to 20 mph?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

 

[Carl Fogel]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > ... The only times I got tubular glue problems on Page
> > Mill Rd was when I followed my six year old son down
> > riding the brake at 10-20mph. That puts all the
> > potential energy into the rim instead of blowing it away
> > in the wind at higher speed....
>
> So there is absolutely no wind resistance while riding a
> bicycle in the speed range of 10 to 20 mph?
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Dear Tom,

What do they know of wind resistance who only
recumbents know?

R. Kipling

 

[A Muzi]

> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]... The tape
> problem is
>
>>not one so much about the quality of tape and its embedded
>>adhesive as it is of impregnated cloth (on a reel)
>>furnishing adhesion. A tape fabric that is exposed to the
>>atmosphere will "dry up" if it doesn't contain an adhesive
>>that is perpetually soft. If it such an adhesive it won't
>>do the job because the mobility required of the adhesive
>>is exactly what one doesn't want under a tire. If it dries
>>when in place then it doesn't have enough exposed adhesive
>>volume to change a tire.

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> Doesn't the cloth backing on a tubular tire act the same
as you described
> below when you use tubular cement? And If so, couldn't
one peel off the
> backing off the tubular tire and just use the cloth glue
tape?
>
> If it dries up and I'm sure it will, it's up to the rider
to change the
> tape, the same as one who uses cement would have to
re-glue the tires to the
> rim.

I think a lot of this overly long discussion stems from the
fact that Jobst has never seen the product we are talking
about. From his references I think he has only seen Jantex,
a truly despicable product which I would never use on my own
or a customer's bike. ( although it has its adherents).

Jantex is a loosely-woven cotton tape made by Velox with a
burning wood smell that's delivered in a foil wrapper inside
a white and red cardboard box. It's usually received not
sticky enough to hold itself to a wall, let alone a tub to a
rim. I believe the riders who use it are relying on mostly
just the tire's pressure to hold the tub on the rim.
Yeccchhh. Please don't write to tell me you like it. I'm not
listening.

The Tufo product is really tenacious and based on a
polyurethane strip, a thicker stickier version of 3M double-
sided celo tape. Rider reports are mostly positive and
although I am not ready to switch from normal tub cement (
why?) the Tufo stuff does seem a like it might work. One
rider reported glue running out of it across his sidewall
during a rainy cross race.

There are two versions, yellow box ("standard") and orange
box ("extreme"). But it is four times the price and seems to
attack a problem I have not yet met personally. I mean, it
takes about ten to fifteen minutes span and two minutes work
to mount a tubular. There are riders who use a whole tube of
cement for one tire and make a big mess but they are klutzes
anyway. That's not inherent.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html

What ever is so hard about that?

ps- I agree that if you've gone a full season without a
flat it's a good idea to reglue your tubs.
Unfortunatley, in many years on all my bikes, I only had
one occasion to do that.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

Tom Nakashima wrote:

> Over the years I have learned a lot about the bicycle
from reading a J.
> Brandt post. He has saved me money and maintenance in
caring for my bike.
> Sometimes during my lunch break, if I have a bike related
question, I'll
> re-read some of his postings in the FAQ, he knows the
bicycle well. If I
> can't find the answers in the FAQ, I'll ask. In this
case I do have a
> wheelset with tubulars that I ride on occasion, and which
probably needs
> re-gluing. I've been interested in the tubular glue tape
only because I hate
> the glue mess. This is what I have found on the internet
> on tubular glue
tape, perhaps it
> is a little "Mickey Mouse" http://www.worldclasscycles.c-
> om/tufo_tubular_gluing_strip.htm

Me too. I owe him a lot. I've always found him gracious with
his time and expertise, that formed from a sharp mind and
lots of observation.

Even when Jobst is short after being belittled here, he's
more often right than not.

In this case I think he hasn't seen the product yet.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971