Goals Galore, v2.009

[Meek One]

Awesome results Frost. I am pretty confident you will knock out that 40k TT in under 60min, probably closer to 50 than 60.

Little update, because I am so happy for todays 5 min test

1. Weight - check, hovers in 85-87kg. I try not to let drop more, at least for this season
2. 5 sec - I did 3 sessions of standing starts and lo and behold, peak power shoot 150w up and 5 sec followed nicely to 1600w level. Those standing starts are simply amazing. I will give this a bit more in about month or two to see where I can get.
3. 1 min - no test yet (I simply hate it, even an idea!!)
4. 5 min - 463w today, yippee. It came very easy actually and feels a bit like cheating because I wanted to have at least one realistic goal and this was the one where the bar was a tad low.
5. 20 min/FTP - well, this is the one where I put 90% of training effort and it is still the one giving least. I haven't done hard L4 workouts for a few weeks now but 40 min (which is a typical real L4 wo for me) have been on both sides of 360w

6. Racing - check. Only two official masters series TT's (5th and 3rd in M30-40 category) but that's a start. Even it probably sounds ridiculous for seasoned racers, my goal was to win myself in having guts to participate (haven't done anything competitive in 20 years)

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I'm with Meek, nice job frost. That's a lot of power across the board, very impressive!

I'd put some time into working on your TT position, at least a good review of neanderthal positioning if not field testing. Even a big guy should be able to break the hour mark on a flat course with 360 watts at his disposal.

-Dave

 

[frost]

Thanks Dave and Meek and thanks for all inspiration, motivation and knowledge! One could say that the day when I accidentally ended up in this site some years ago has changed my training completely .

I also believe that sub hour 40k is only about the route and weather now. I did 20k TT in May in a sligthly rolling terrain for 28:31 @ 357w and now I have that power in reserve for the whole hour. I have a piece of road in my mind so maybe if the weekend weather is nice I'll give it a try. Of course a race would be the best option for extra motivation but for some reason we don't have that long TT's.

TT position is definately "the Theme" for the next season. Might be that you get good laughs judging my pictures througout the next year .

 

[frost]

I'd put some time into working on your TT position, at least a good review of neanderthal positioning if not field testing. Even a big guy should be able to break the hour mark on a flat course with 360 watts at his disposal.

-Dave

Yesterday it was a nice calm evening, so I finally took the time for aerotesting. I was planning to do the testing on a local velodrome but a visit there some weeks ago convinced me what had been told that it is not rideable so I had to do in a road strip close by. It is an old airport runway but still it isn't 100% flat and even the tarmac is quite smooth it is full of bumps that probably add to the rolling resistance non-uniformily. But anyway better than nothing for baseline testing.

I did 5 baseline runs in both directions to cancel out the incline and wind effect (there was a very slight side breeze). I then calculated the averages for each pair of runs (I didn't use the start-end-ave speed in regression model because had the runs as pairs and inputting them as individual runs would have probably mixed up the slope calc) Anyhow I tried to do so that I first accelerate to bit over target speed, then cost for 10-20m to drop to target speed so that I minimize the kinetic energy change. Holding constant speed was surprisingly difficult.
Here are the results:
no ; av.speed ; av.watt ; note
1 ; 23 ; 72 ; streched
1 ; 23.2 ; 75
2 ; 27.9 ; 107
2 ; 28.2 ; 118
3 ; 35.3 ; 190
3 ; 35.3 ; 200
4 ; 40.2 ; 271
4 ; 39.9 ; 301
5 ; 45.1 ; 369
5 ; 45.3 ; 390
6 ; 49.8 ; 488
7 ; 40.4 ; 270 ; compact
7 ; 40.3 ; 295
8 ; 40.4 ; 341 ; basebar
8 ; 40.3 ; 359


There is one only one run for 50kmh because I was a bit tired after a couple of hours of SST in the morning and I didn't want to bury myself doing another one. So I left that out from calcs.


AeroRegression results:
CdA = 0,27
crr = 0,48

Because this was a baseline testing I didn't wiggle with the bike but anyway I did couple of test runs in an altered position.

Basic position was a "stretched" one where I have the elbows almost on the cups and palms rest on top of the shifters (there is a pic in another thread). The first alteration was what I would call a "compact" position that I have been using in gentle climbs where I pull hands back behind the shifters maybe to 2/3 of aerobars, and the cups are in the middle of forearm. This shortens the position, raises it probably a couple of cm (because the forearms run very slightly downwards where as in the first position they run very slightly upwards which drops the elbows) and spreads the elbows by maybe 5cm. The latter position is much more comfortable for power production. To my great surprise it is at least as aero as the "stretched". (of course I should do more control runs).

Another big surprise was how dramatic was the change from aero position to riding on the basebar. ~60 watts more at ~40kmh!!!

Conclusions:
- test and study before making conclusions
- stay on the aerobars even if you don't feel like that
- calm day and flat road there really is no challenge in riding a sub hour 40k
- tweaking the position and investing a few thousand euro to all the latest aero gadget would probably get the CdA down to very respectable number for my size guy but it doesn't change the fact that I need more power and/or less weight to ride faster in typical routes here.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Another big surprise was how dramatic was the change from aero position to riding on the basebar. ~60 watts more at ~40kmh!!!

Which, if the 0.27m^2 is right, equates to a CdA when on the base bar of 0.336m^2.

 

[swampy1970]

Basic position was a "stretched" one where I have the elbows almost on the cups and palms rest on top of the shifters (there is a pic in another thread). The first alteration was what I would call a "compact" position that I have been using in gentle climbs where I pull hands back behind the shifters maybe to 2/3 of aerobars, and the cups are in the middle of forearm. This shortens the position, raises it probably a couple of cm (because the forearms run very slightly downwards where as in the first position they run very slightly upwards which drops the elbows) and spreads the elbows by maybe 5cm. The latter position is much more comfortable for power production. To my great surprise it is at least as aero as the "stretched". (of course I should do more control runs).

You can never underestimate comfort towards the end of a 40km time trial. A 16km TT you can get a little silly with the position but anything longer and you have to start thinking about how things are going to be after 45 minutes. Things start getting a little dangerous when your neck is too sore and tired to hold your head up...

Do some more testing with those two positions and maybe try a position that's in tbetween the two.

 

[Piotr]

Training goals:
Race weight: 54 kg (119 lbs)
5 sec: 1050 W (probably late season)
1 min: 550 W
5 min: 360 W
FTP: 275 W

Racing goals:
1 Masters 35+ win (excluding hillclimbs)
Top 5 overall M35+ High Uintas Classic
Sub-50 min @ Snowbird Hillclimb
Top 5 UCA M35+ ranking

Well, I'm done with serious training or racing for this season, so I guess it's time to fess up.

Training goals results:
Race weight: 55.5 - 56 kg (122 -123 lbs)
- I found that trying to lose those ~2 kg is just not worth the loss of power or risking illness. I'm climbing better than ever anyway.

5 sec: 1064 W (actually, the easiest goal to achieve, and early on)
1 min: 529 W* (only marginal improvement over last year)
5 min: 344 W* (zilch improvement)
* I could still possibly improve on these as I'm currently in a serious taper, but alas I busted my PT wheel and though it's still adequate for indoor training I will not be attempting these outdoor PB's anytime soon.

FTP: 270 W (estimated)
- A recent indoor test was aborted after 30 min @ 272 W. I had previously done a 43 min hillclimb @ 271 AP (5000-8000 ft).

Racing goals results:
No RR or crit wins. (2 primes, two 2nd places, 4th in state championship race, and 3 HC wins though )
DNP in High Uintas.
48'24" at Snowbird (official clock shows 48'54"), but they changed the course this year, and based on the top times every year, I would've been either very close or just short of my goal.
5th ranked for M35+ UCA thanks to a late season rally. I missed the last UCA hillclimb this weekend, which could have moved me to 4th.

All and all, I'm happy with the modest progress I make every year.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Sounds to me like you had a great season Piotr, nice job!

Killed it on those hillclimbs, did really well on the overall state rankings and layed it down for some sprint placings just to show versatility. Awesome!

-Dave

Well, I'm done with serious training or racing for this season, so I guess it's time to fess up.

Training goals results:
Race weight: 55.5 - 56 kg (122 -123 lbs)
- I found that trying to lose those ~2 kg is just not worth the loss of power or risking illness. I'm climbing better than ever anyway.

5 sec: 1064 W (actually, the easiest goal to achieve, and early on)
1 min: 529 W* (only marginal improvement over last year)
5 min: 344 W* (zilch improvement)
* I could still possibly improve on these as I'm currently in a serious taper, but alas I busted my PT wheel and though it's still adequate for indoor training I will not be attempting these outdoor PB's anytime soon.

FTP: 270 W (estimated)
- A recent indoor test was aborted after 30 min @ 272 W. I had previously done a 43 min hillclimb @ 271 AP (5000-8000 ft).

Racing goals results:
No RR or crit wins. (2 primes, two 2nd places, 4th in state championship race, and 3 HC wins though )
DNP in High Uintas.
48'24" at Snowbird (official clock shows 48'54"), but they changed the course this year, and based on the top times every year, I would've been either very close or just short of my goal.
5th ranked for M35+ UCA thanks to a late season rally. I missed the last UCA hillclimb this weekend, which could have moved me to 4th.

All and all, I'm happy with the modest progress I make every year.

 

[Meek One]

+1. Way to go Piotr. Can't wait to see what you have in store for next year.

Sounds to me like you had a great season Piotr, nice job!

Killed it on those hillclimbs, did really well on the overall state rankings and layed it down for some sprint placings just to show versatility. Awesome!

-Dave

 

[frost]

+1. Way to go Piotr. Can't wait to see what you have in store for next year.

Agreed. Any improvement in that level is huge. Of course with that "weight problem", you should be a bit more careful of how much you eat

 

[Piotr]

Agreed. Any improvement in that level is huge. Of course with that "weight problem", you should be a bit more careful of how much you eat

Yeah, I really ballooned up this year to a BMI of 19.5.
Honestly, I think I gained leg muscle. Those extra mitochondria have to take up more space, right?

 

[swampy1970]

Nice going Piotr!

I got one already for Goals Galire v2.010. The Everest Challenge. I think I may actually race this bad boy...

Day 2

Two days - 29,000ft of climbing - hence the name. You can either ride it as a ride or enter as part of a race. This years race, sadly, is this weekend.

I've been figuring that just riding events really hasn't motivated me to lose weight and get really fit. I got the FTP up nicely but motivation is becoming a serious issue. Red Tail ale is becoming more of an interest than the bike has...

 

[Piotr]

Yeah, I've heard of it. In fact, a local cyclist I know got 2nd in it a few years ago (M45+?). Definitely not in the cards for this weekend. Right now I'm just having fun on the bike, detraining, and enjoying some +ve TSB. 2010 training starts in 5 weeks.

 

[swampy1970]

My other goal is to work out how all those Categories work. Do you get to chose whether you race as 35+ or as a regular numbered category or do they just say "Oh gramps, you're in the 65+ category now, can't ride Cat 2"

 

[daveryanwyoming]

My other goal is to work out how all those Categories work. Do you get to chose whether you race as 35+ or as a regular numbered category or do they just say "Oh gramps, you're in the 65+ category now, can't ride Cat 2"

You can choose to race down in age in non-championship races but not down into the junior categories. So if you have a Cat 2 on your license and you're say 50 years old you could race the Master 45+ 1/2s race, the Master 35+ 1/2s race or the Senior (elite) 1/2s race as long as it's not a state or national championship event.

That part is lined out in the USAC rules. The tougher part is what categories a particular race organizer chooses to run. That can vary all over the map with lots of age grade and category separations or none at all as in no Masters categories at all or just a lumped Masters race for all cats and all ages above a certain starting point like Masters 30+, 35+, 45+. etc. It can get confusing as you move around different states or districts or between promoters that have different approaches.

Since you're living in NorCal you should check out the NCNCA website: NCNCA - Northern California and Nevada Cycling Association for upcoming race info or Velo Promo: Planned Velo Promo Bicycle Event Schedule
as they promote many NorCal events

-Dave

 

[frost]

2. 5 sec - I did 3 sessions of standing starts and lo and behold, peak power shoot 150w up and 5 sec followed nicely to 1600w level. Those standing starts are simply amazing. I will give this a bit more in about month or two to see where I can get.

Yippee!! Only two weeks of dedicated sprint training and I am already over 1650w. If the weather permits I'll go on for a week or two of higher sprint volume and then rest and see if I could break the 1700w barrier.

 

[Enriss]

I have very strange goals. I'm planning on switching between biking and weightlifting on a yearly schedule. During the months I can't ride, I'll be growing my muscles, in the summer months I'll be cutting the fat off like crazy.

Currently:
180 lbs at about 23% body fat
150 lb squat, 100 lb bench press, 125 lb deadlift

Goals:
190-200 lbs at 10% body fat or less
Tie my state's 148.7 lb division ungeared powerlifting records (330lb squat, 370lb deadlift, 210lb bench press)
Compete in local bike races as a Cat III rider.

I get a lot of strange reactions to the fact that I want to match powerlifting records and train for and endurance sport, but if I'm 200 lbs at 10% body fat, I'm 180 lbs lean, and I don't think it's too crazy to think I could beat the 148.7 lb powerlifter.

 

[swampy1970]

You can choose to race down in age in non-championship races but not down into the junior categories. So if you have a Cat 2 on your license and you're say 50 years old you could race the Master 45+ 1/2s race, the Master 35+ 1/2s race or the Senior (elite) 1/2s race as long as it's not a state or national championship event.

That part is lined out in the USAC rules. The tougher part is what categories a particular race organizer chooses to run. That can vary all over the map with lots of age grade and category separations or none at all as in no Masters categories at all or just a lumped Masters race for all cats and all ages above a certain starting point like Masters 30+, 35+, 45+. etc. It can get confusing as you move around different states or districts or between promoters that have different approaches.

Since you're living in NorCal you should check out the NCNCA website: NCNCA - Northern California and Nevada Cycling Association for upcoming race info or Velo Promo: Planned Velo Promo Bicycle Event Schedule
as they promote many NorCal events

-Dave

Thanks Dave! Plenty of good reading material there - maybe a little too much for just one race