Goddamm, T-Mobile is stupid

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by K. Gringioni, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. K. Gringioni

    K. Gringioni Guest

    In the last 2k, Kloden and Ullrich should have traded attacks. They
    had 2 out of 4.


    All they did by having Kloden pull was essentially work for LANCE.
    Basso can't sprint and Ullrich had already done a lot of work off the
    front in his break. LANCE hadn't seen the wind all day.


    Dumb.
     
    Tags:


  2. curt

    curt Guest

    Jan has been riding alone the whole tour. This is nothing new. T-mobile
    could give a crap about Jan. He is quite a rider and it is too bad he
    doesn't have a team like USPS. As we can see, it make a huge difference.

    Curt

    "K. Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In the last 2k, Kloden and Ullrich should have traded attacks. They
    > had 2 out of 4.
    >
    >
    > All they did by having Kloden pull was essentially work for LANCE.
    > Basso can't sprint and Ullrich had already done a lot of work off the
    > front in his break. LANCE hadn't seen the wind all day.
    >
    >
    > Dumb.
     
  3. Jim Burlant

    Jim Burlant Guest

    Agreed. Then again today wasn't the first time they rode as a less than
    stellar team. On La Mongie, Ullrich gets dropped...and Kloden keeps going
    on. Only 2 or 3 km later does he look around and notice Bratwurst Boy isn't
    there any more. Then we have the nonsense today.

    Like I said in a prevoius post, T-Mobile has the horses to make this a
    little more interesting than it's been. I'd still like to see them go on
    the warpath on stage 17: Have Guerini attack on the 3rd to last climb;
    nobody will chase him. Then send Kloden up the road. They can hopefully
    stay together over the 4th climb and force USPS to chase. I can't imagine
    Basso is going to have Jens Voight to drive the chase this time so it wil
    all be up to USPS. Make them USPS use their team up a little earlier than
    they'd like to, and have Ullrich attack - all or nothing - at the bottom of
    the final climb.

    Ullrich looked much better today; even up the steepest slopes he had a much
    quicker cadence going and it bodes well for him. He may have found his legs
    in time to make the alps interesting.

    The thing that strikes me is that Lance is riding an Indurain-esque race,
    save for the two wins at mountain top sprints. He's not attacking anyone
    IMO because he can't any more. His team rides everyone else off the wheels
    and he can't drop Basso. Be interesting to see how Ullrich fares on
    Thursday. I figure he loses 30 - 45 seconds tomorrow.

    Jim Burlant


    "K. Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In the last 2k, Kloden and Ullrich should have traded attacks. They
    > had 2 out of 4.
    >
    >
    > All they did by having Kloden pull was essentially work for LANCE.
    > Basso can't sprint and Ullrich had already done a lot of work off the
    > front in his break. LANCE hadn't seen the wind all day.
    >
    >
    > Dumb.
     
  4. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

    Joined:
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  5. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "K. Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In the last 2k, Kloden and Ullrich should have traded attacks. They
    > had 2 out of 4.
    >
    >
    > All they did by having Kloden pull was essentially work for LANCE.
    > Basso can't sprint and Ullrich had already done a lot of work off the
    > front in his break. LANCE hadn't seen the wind all day.
    >
    >
    > Dumb.


    The biggest Fred's are those that think they know what to do more than the
    pros that are on the scene and have been winning races for years. Don't you
    think so "Kurgan"? Of course, you have the palmares and the analytical
    skills to teach all of those dumb Euro's a lesson or two, right?
     
  6. Krusty

    Krusty Guest

    On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:00:35 -0700, "Chris"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Fred


    Please help a newbie to this group. What is the significance of this
    name in the context that you used it?
     
  7. Jim Burlant

    Jim Burlant Guest

    You're right in that this year he doesn't need to attack. He would have had
    to if Ullrich, Mayo, Hamilton, and Heras didn't choke to varying degrees in
    th emountains. And given his inability to ride Basso off his wheel, I'm not
    convinced he could have attacked well enough. He can't sustain his surges
    the way he used to and the only reason he's in as commanding a lead as he is
    is that everyone else choked, period.

    He figures that he'll put at least 2 - probably 4 or 5 - minutes on Basso in
    the final TT but he doesn't want to leave it to chance. But based on what
    you're saying, you mean that he didn't need to blow people away from 1999 -
    2002? Don't kid yourself. The first day in the mountains, vintage Lance
    always laid down the law because nobody could hold his wheel, and you never
    saw 5 guys finishing within a minute of him on a mountain stage when he
    attacked. If he isn't doing it now it's because he can't do it and he's
    riding defensively in order to save as much energy as he can. Believe me he
    isn't comfortable having less than 90 seconds' lead on 2nd place this late
    into the TdF. By this time in 1999 - 2002, he had at least 7 minutes.

    I think the problems at T-mobile have a lot to do with the DS more than the
    riders. Choosing Zabel (who hasn't won jack in ages) over Evans, who's
    shown tremendous promise and proven himself to be in good form by winning
    the Tour of Austria? I do think they're still trying to get Ullrich back on
    the podium and if Thursday goes like it did today, it's an attainable goal.
    If Ullrich can put another minute into Mancebo on Thursday I can't see
    Mancebo holding onto 4th. Whether Kloden holds up or folds is another
    story.

    > >
    > > You seem to think that Lance can't attack anymore. I would ask why he
    > > should attack. Armstrong will kill Basso in the final ITT and he
    > > already has a significant advantage. An attack would just be for show.
    > > Armstrong also needed space over everyone else and an attack would be
    > > less efficent. Armstrong also has very little reason to attack if he
    > > can win the final sprint. Most importantly give Basso some credit.
    > > Maybe Lance can't attack Basso because basso is the strongest climber
    > > that Lance has EVER faced. If basso hadn't been in the race then you
    > > probably would have see Armstrong riding solo.
    > >
    > > On T-Mobile I think that the team has really given up on a victory.
    > > The two were trying to gain time on the rest of the race so that they
    > > pushed the pace, but I think that T-mobile is a little confused because
    > > no one wants to upset anyone else. I think that riders on the team are
    > > never even sure what their roles are.

    >
    >
    > --
    > lazysegall
    >
     
  8. "curt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Jan has been riding alone the whole tour. This is nothing new. T-mobile
    > could give a crap about Jan. He is quite a rider and it is too bad he
    > doesn't have a team like USPS. As we can see, it make a huge difference.
    >
    > Curt
    >


    They really crapped out on him. And why didn't they send cadel evans, who I
    am sure would have done a lot better than botero. The fact that vino isn't
    there shouldn't have caused so many problems on a team loaded with big
    names. But Salvoldelli is perpetually injured, Vino isn't there and they
    really made some major booboos when they really couldn't afford to.
     
  9. Jim Flom

    Jim Flom Guest

    What's with the red font and eyeglasses?
     
  10. Krusty

    Krusty Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:22:59 GMT, "Jim Flom" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >What's with the red font and eyeglasses?
    >


    Thanks.

    But red font?
     
  11. Foo Bear

    Foo Bear Guest

    On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:31:47 -0700, Jim Burlant stepped out of the dark and clumsily uttered:

    >
    > You're right in that this year he doesn't need to attack. He would have had
    > to if Ullrich, Mayo, Hamilton, and Heras didn't choke to varying degrees in
    > th emountains. And given his inability to ride Basso off his wheel, I'm not
    > convinced he could have attacked well enough. He can't sustain his surges
    > the way he used to and the only reason he's in as commanding a lead as he is
    > is that everyone else choked, period.
    >
    > He figures that he'll put at least 2 - probably 4 or 5 - minutes on Basso in
    > the final TT but he doesn't want to leave it to chance. But based on what
    > you're saying, you mean that he didn't need to blow people away from 1999 -
    > 2002? Don't kid yourself. The first day in the mountains, vintage Lance
    > always laid down the law because nobody could hold his wheel, and you never
    > saw 5 guys finishing within a minute of him on a mountain stage when he
    > attacked. If he isn't doing it now it's because he can't do it and he's
    > riding defensively in order to save as much energy as he can. Believe me he
    > isn't comfortable having less than 90 seconds' lead on 2nd place this late
    > into the TdF. By this time in 1999 - 2002, he had at least 7 minutes.
    >
    > I think the problems at T-mobile have a lot to do with the DS more than the
    > riders. Choosing Zabel (who hasn't won jack in ages) over Evans, who's
    > shown tremendous promise and proven himself to be in good form by winning
    > the Tour of Austria?


    Former Telekom rider Jens Heppner commented that the team owes him so much
    (retaining the sponsor by winning stages and the green jersey when Jan had
    a lot of bad press, ie. coming in second. He is after all still #2 in UCI
    ranking, which must have something to do with him being a fairly
    consistent rider throughout the year. Plus he is currently third with 13
    points behind McEwen, not exactly bad.), that they couldn't possibly have
    left him out of the tour. Having watched "Hoellentour" one can furthermore
    assume that the team also wants to have him to keep spirits high (Mario
    Kummer doesn't come across as the most cheerful person in the world.

    What I really can't understand is, why they keep on choosing Botero, who
    yesterday lost 23 minutes on Zabel (!), instead of Evans. The case of
    T-Mobile is difficult, to say the least, because they almost always seem
    to have really bad luck with injuries (Vinokurov, Kessler, Steinhauser,
    Aldag and now Kloeden again, though at least still in the race) and Jan's
    illness.

    I agree with the many posters that Jan should have switched to CSC instead
    of T-Mobile. I saw an interview with Jens Voight, who btw. is performing
    incredibly, that the team met early this year (I think February) to do
    some adventurous team building stuff (climbing, abseiling etc.), which
    seems to pay off now. Too bad that Joerg Jaksche couldn't make this tour.

    > I do think they're still trying to get Ullrich back on
    > the podium and if Thursday goes like it did today, it's an attainable goal.
    > If Ullrich can put another minute into Mancebo on Thursday I can't see
    > Mancebo holding onto 4th. Whether Kloden holds up or folds is another
    > story.


    Agreed.

    >> >
    >> > You seem to think that Lance can't attack anymore. I would ask why he
    >> > should attack. Armstrong will kill Basso in the final ITT and he
    >> > already has a significant advantage. An attack would just be for show.
    >> > Armstrong also needed space over everyone else and an attack would be
    >> > less efficent. Armstrong also has very little reason to attack if he
    >> > can win the final sprint. Most importantly give Basso some credit.
    >> > Maybe Lance can't attack Basso because basso is the strongest climber
    >> > that Lance has EVER faced. If basso hadn't been in the race then you
    >> > probably would have see Armstrong riding solo.
    >> >
    >> > On T-Mobile I think that the team has really given up on a victory.
    >> > The two were trying to gain time on the rest of the race so that they
    >> > pushed the pace, but I think that T-mobile is a little confused because
    >> > no one wants to upset anyone else. I think that riders on the team are
    >> > never even sure what their roles are.

    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> lazysegall
    >>
     
  12. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Jim Burlant" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > You're right in that this year he doesn't need to attack. He would have had
    > to if Ullrich, Mayo, Hamilton, and Heras didn't choke to varying degrees in
    > th emountains. And given his inability to ride Basso off his wheel, I'm not
    > convinced he could have attacked well enough. He can't sustain his surges
    > the way he used to and the only reason he's in as commanding a lead as he is
    > is that everyone else choked, period.


    Err, have you noticed anyone else winning three stages so far? Oh,
    wait, that's right, Bettini was choking. Petacchi was choking. Ooooo,
    ooo, and Robbie McEwen was choking.....

    The point being that Lance's surges were so powerful that everyone
    else didn't CHOKE, they couldn't keep up. And you're about to see why
    Basso hasn't beaten Lance. If today isn't object lesson enough then
    stay tuned for the Bessason TT on Saturday.

    > He figures that he'll put at least 2 - probably 4 or 5 - minutes on Basso in
    > the final TT but he doesn't want to leave it to chance. But based on what
    > you're saying, you mean that he didn't need to blow people away from 1999 -
    > 2002?


    No, he did need to do so to fix it in the competition's minds that he
    was the boss. Don't kid yourself that at that level morale isn't a
    large part of the difference between the top 5 racers. Lance often
    wins not because he's faster but because he doesn't give up when
    other's do. Just that little bit of cracking where it passes through a
    riders mind that the other guy MAY be a little faster is all it takes
    to keep him from trying just that little bit harder or holding his
    speed just that little longer.


    > The first day in the mountains, vintage Lance
    > always laid down the law because nobody could hold his wheel, and you never
    > saw 5 guys finishing within a minute of him on a mountain stage when he
    > attacked. If he isn't doing it now it's because he can't do it and he's
    > riding defensively in order to save as much energy as he can.


    In my opinion what you're seeing is a lot of other guys really
    focusing on the Tour and using Lance's own strategies of specifically
    training on the course itself. Check out the times - Lance hasn't
    gotten any slower at all, everyone else is beginning to learn his
    methods.
     
  13. K. Gringioni

    K. Gringioni Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "K. Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > In the last 2k, Kloden and Ullrich should have traded attacks. They
    > > had 2 out of 4.
    > >
    > >
    > > All they did by having Kloden pull was essentially work for LANCE.
    > > Basso can't sprint and Ullrich had already done a lot of work off the
    > > front in his break. LANCE hadn't seen the wind all day.
    > >
    > >
    > > Dumb.

    >
    > The biggest Fred's are those that think they know what to do more than the
    > pros that are on the scene and have been winning races for years. Don't you
    > think so "Kurgan"? Of course, you have the palmares and the analytical
    > skills to teach all of those dumb Euro's a lesson or two, right?




    Dumbass -


    In the heat of the competition mistakes are routinely made. That
    includes the professional level. They're human beings, just like the
    rest of us.


    T-Mobile basically worked for LANCE in those last 3 km. He didn't have
    to do a damn thing, just sit 4th wheel until 200m to go. It was the
    first time he hit the wind the entire stage. How could he lose? Kloden
    just did all the work for 2k, Ullrich isn't fresh due to his breakaway
    and LANCE is a better sprinter than Basso.

    With 500m to go, I turned to my friend and said, "LANCE will win for
    sure". It was not a bold prognostication, barring a crash, at that
    point there was no other possible outcome.

    T-Mobile blew it.


    As for professionals - ya, professionals never make mistakes. George
    W. Bush, professional politican, never made a mistake. Neither did
    Bill Clinton, also a professional.


    You? You are a moron.


    Take care and have a nice day,


    K. Gringioni
     
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