Going triple: What's this extra part?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Rick Onanian, Feb 4, 2004.

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  1. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

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  2. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:42:51 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    may have said:

    >I found it while cleaning up. What is this thing? It looks similar to an E-clip, but elongated:
    >http://members.cox.net/thc/Clip.jpg

    It's the retainer clip for an old-style master link. I've never seen that type used with a chain for
    a der, so it's probably a random accidental find.

    --
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  3. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:53:05 GMT, Werehatrack
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:42:51 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    >>I found it while cleaning up. What is this thing? It looks similar to an E-clip, but elongated:
    >>http://members.cox.net/thc/Clip.jpg
    >
    >It's the retainer clip for an old-style master link. I've never seen that type used with a chain
    >for a der, so it's probably a random accidental find.

    OIC. It must have fell out of a box from a single-speed chain I had hanging around.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  4. meb

    meb New Member

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    I’ve got some of these locking side plate master links on bikes with ders.
    Now that you mention it, the bikes are rear der only.
    I generally refrain from master links because they are weaker and more likely to have alignment issues resulting in thrown chains, although I’ve never had a master link break on a pedaled vehicle (I’ve broken many with internal combustion engine drives).
    No problem with the rear der.
    I could see fder issues if the protruding plate were placed on the left, but downshifting with it on the right would seem a minimal concern since any bump sends the chain to the smaller ring anyway.
    I know many people use master links to make it easy to remove the chains for cleaning.

    I googled and found some bicycle master links with a keyhole on each side of the link and one pin attached to each side.
    Is that the implied new link from your “old” reference?
    Is that typical of “modern” master links?

    Looks like there would be less of an alignment issue with the longitudinally symmetric links.
     
  5. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:42:51 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> may have said:
    >
    > >I found it while cleaning up. What is this thing? It looks similar to an E-clip, but elongated:
    > >http://members.cox.net/thc/Clip.jpg
    >
    > It's the retainer clip for an old-style master link. I've never seen that type used with a chain
    > for a der, so it's probably a random accidental find.

    I agree. Either that, or your wife's lost an earring.

    Jeff
     
  6. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On 4 Feb 2004 13:15:23 -0800, [email protected] (Jeff Wills)
    wrote:
    >Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:<[email protected]>...
    >> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:42:51 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    >> >I found it while cleaning up. What is this thing? It looks similar to an E-clip, but elongated:
    >> >http://members.cox.net/thc/Clip.jpg
    >>
    >> It's the retainer clip for an old-style master link. I've never seen
    >
    >I agree. Either that, or your wife's lost an earring.

    Hmm..I _do_ need some sort of valentine's day gift for my girlfriend (not my wife until we can
    afford a place to live, preferably big enough for my bikes ;).

    >Jeff
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  7. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:55:33 GMT, meb <[email protected]>
    may have said:

    >Werehatrack wrote:
    >
    > > It's the retainer clip for an old-style master link. I've never seen that type used with a
    > > chain for a der, so it's probably a random accidental find.
    >
    >I’ve got some of these locking side plate master links on bikes with ders. Now that you mention it,
    >the bikes are rear der only. I generally refrain from master links because they are weaker and more
    >likely to have alignment issues resulting in thrown chains, although I’ve never had a master link
    >break on a pedaled vehicle (I’ve broken many with internal combustion engine drives).

    In absolute tensile strength terms, I doubt that the later-style master links are weaker in any
    important manner than the chains they connect. They are potentially subject to one kind of wear that
    the regular links are not, though, which could be an issue if they wore out before the rest of the
    chain...but that does not seem to be the case in my experience.

    >No problem with the rear der. I could see fder issues if the protruding plate were placed on the
    >left, but downshifting with it on the right would seem a minimal concern since any bump sends the
    >chain to the smaller ring anyway. I know many people use master links to make it easy to remove the
    >chains for cleaning.

    If the master was installed with the clip to the left, though, it could cause problems in the back.
    You might get away with it on an old 5-speed freewheel, but on a 9-speed cassette it would likely
    either jam or cause a really bad skip unless the chain was running on the largest rear cog. (As for
    the cleaning thing, while it's true that off-bike cleaning has its adherents, and I used to be one
    of them, recent evidence would seem to support the contention that it's not necessarily advantageous
    to remove a chain and clean it more thoroughly than can be done on the bike. This topic will no
    doubt continue to be debated.) The other problem with clip-type masters is in the fact that the
    teeth of the sprockets at one end or the other (on a two-der system) will get a chance to hit that
    link often, and might pop it off. Later-style links are held in the engaged position by the tension
    on the chain itself, and have no clip to lose.

    There is one exception from KMC, illustrated at the bottom of their US homepage:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/index.html

    In that one, the clip is one of the sideplates. I'm not terribly impressed with the idea, and I
    don't plan to try it.

    >I googled and found some bicycle master links with a keyhole on each side of the link and one pin
    >attached to each side. Is that the implied new link from your “old” reference? Is that typical of
    >“modern” master links?

    Yes, and yes, respectively. The currently most popular ones are the SRAM Powerlink and (in certain
    cases) the Wippermann link. There are others as well, including those on the KMC page cited above.

    >Looks like there would be less of an alignment issue with the longitudinally symmetric links.

    If, by "alignment", you mean left/right clip placement, yes, there's no alignment issue with them at
    all because there's no clip. (Or, perhaps more correctly, the function of the clip has been designed
    into the side plates of the links.)

    Some current master links are "one-use" designs which are not intended to be removable, but most are
    made to allow the chain to be broken and reconnected many times. The value of this often only
    becomes apparent when one does not have a chain that is connected via a Powerlink-style master.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
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  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

  9. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:52:56 GMT, Werehatrack
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >There is one exception from KMC, illustrated at the bottom of their US homepage:
    >
    >http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/index.html
    >
    >In that one, the clip is one of the sideplates. I'm not terribly impressed with the idea, and I
    >don't plan to try it.

    Do you mean http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/cl373.jpg

    The other ones from KMC look just like my Wipperman ConneX. Speaking of that, I'm not terribly
    confident in it; it seems _too_ easy to disconnect, a very loose fit. The instructions include a
    warning that you should check it after changing the wheel or transporting the bike...
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  10. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:22:31 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    may have said:

    >On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:52:56 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>There is one exception from KMC, illustrated at the bottom of their US homepage:
    >>
    >>http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/index.html
    >>
    >>In that one, the clip is one of the sideplates. I'm not terribly impressed with the idea, and I
    >>don't plan to try it.
    >
    >Do you mean http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/cl373.jpg

    That's the one. It's probably perfectly reliable, but since there are alternatives that I like
    better, I'll go with what I like. (Although I'll admit that it *should* be more truly tool-free than
    most others.)

    >The other ones from KMC look just like my Wipperman ConneX. Speaking of that, I'm not terribly
    >confident in it; it seems _too_ easy to disconnect, a very loose fit. The instructions include a
    >warning that you should check it after changing the wheel or transporting the bike...

    I've never used the Wipperman links, but I'm suprised to hear that. The SRAM Powerlinks I've got all
    take a bit of persuasion to latch and unlatch; they don't seem likely to come undone by themselves.
    I have a couple of the KMC links here somewhere, but I haven't tried one yet.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  11. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:52:56 GMT, Werehatrack
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>There is one exception from KMC, illustrated at the bottom of their US homepage:
    >>http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/index.html In that one, the clip is one of the
    >>sideplates. I'm not terribly impressed with the idea, and I don't plan to try it.

    Rick Onanian wrote:
    > Do you mean http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/cl373.jpg The other ones from KMC look
    > just like my Wipperman ConneX. Speaking of that, I'm not terribly confident in it; it seems _too_
    > easy to disconnect, a very loose fit. The instructions include a warning that you should check it
    > after changing the wheel or transporting the bike...

    The KMC 'plate with long slot' link design has proven reliable and easy to use. ( KMC calls it
    'missing link') http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/KMC_MISS.JPG

    Santana uses that link as oem equipment on their tandems, and has for ten years. It's a variant of
    the classic Union design: http://www.yellowjersey.org/1'8.html The KMC Missing Link can be hard to
    unclip; it's definitely not coming open once locked.

    The Wippermann link, while of the most common format
    http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SNAPLINK.JPG seems to fit 'looser' than its brethren.
    Those have been known to unclip when there's low or zero chain tension.
    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  12. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:52:56 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>There is one exception from KMC, illustrated at the bottom of their US homepage:
    > >>http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/index.html In that one, the clip is one of the
    > >>sideplates. I'm not terribly impressed with the idea, and I don't plan to try it.
    >
    > Rick Onanian wrote:
    > > Do you mean http://home.earthlink.net/~kmcchain/english/cl373.jpg The other ones from KMC look
    > > just like my Wipperman ConneX. Speaking of that, I'm not terribly confident in it; it seems
    > > _too_ easy to disconnect, a very loose fit. The instructions include a warning that you should
    > > check it after changing the wheel or transporting the bike...
    >
    > The KMC 'plate with long slot' link design has proven reliable and easy to use. ( KMC calls it
    > 'missing link') http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/KMC_MISS.JPG
    >
    > Santana uses that link as oem equipment on their tandems, and has for ten years. It's a variant of
    > the classic Union design: http://www.yellowjersey.org/1'8.html The KMC Missing Link can be hard to
    > unclip; it's definitely not coming open once locked.
    >
    > The Wippermann link, while of the most common format
    > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SNAPLINK.JPG seems to fit 'looser' than its
    > brethren. Those have been known to unclip when there's low or zero chain tension.

    Dear Andrew,

    Nicely done master link pictures.

    I noticed that you scoffed at people who insist that an open-tailed elongated circlip must have its
    open end facing back toward the axle as it arrives at the top of the front chainwheel.

    I think that your $20 bet that they can't tear such circlips off is fairly safe with bicycles.
    Motorcycles are probably to blame for their fears.

    On off-road motorcycles, there really is a right direction for the master-link circlip. It's a basic
    safety precaution. In bad mud or brush or rock sections, the powered chain of a stuck motorcycle
    spinning its rear wheel will happily tear such circlips off if they're installed the wrong way.

    These motorcycle chain circlips are astonishingly strong, so strong that even with good needlenose
    pliers, they're hard to remove if one free end of the circlip doesn't snap into the groove.

    But if a rock or the side of a mudhole or a wicked piece of brush catches under the pointed little
    ends while the rear tire is spinning uselessly, the engine-powered lower run of chain just pops them
    off or else bends one leg of the clip right back and snaps it off.

    I've picked up the pieces a few times. Once, there was no question that the unlucky rider had
    installed the link backward--the chain was still intact, but the broken circlip on his master link
    caught my eye when we parked the machines to walk a section.

    One leg of the circlip had broken off, leaving a fish-hook shape wrapped around the grooved post.
    The pressure of the plate underneath and the impressive tightness of what was left of the circlip
    snapped around the post had kept it in place. An intact circlip taken from one of the rusty spares
    threaded onto the gas-cap vent tube replaced it and worked just fine.

    But on bicycles, as I said, your $20 seems safe. Not many bicycle riders spin their rear wheels
    powerfully while stuck. Still, I'd put the link on with the open end facing back toward the axle on
    the top run.

    Carl Fogel
     
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