Gonchar and Honchar?
- Thread starter BJC
- Start date
B
Boyd Speerschne
Guest
BJC <[email protected]> wrote in news:8iMsc.31340$ai7.17014
@fe15.usenetserver.com:
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
For latin riders (and latin people in general) it is
traditional to take on their mother's maiden name followed
by their father's surname. This tends to cause the extremely
long latin names you'll see somtimes
ie., Carlos Domingo Gomez Rodrigo Gonzales Olano Jimenez
Fernandez de Cruz etc...
Albiet most latinos(as), for the sake of sanity, tend
to shorten it to just their first name followed by
father's surname.
- Boyd "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
@fe15.usenetserver.com:
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
For latin riders (and latin people in general) it is
traditional to take on their mother's maiden name followed
by their father's surname. This tends to cause the extremely
long latin names you'll see somtimes
ie., Carlos Domingo Gomez Rodrigo Gonzales Olano Jimenez
Fernandez de Cruz etc...
Albiet most latinos(as), for the sake of sanity, tend
to shorten it to just their first name followed by
father's surname.
- Boyd "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
D
David N. Welton
Guest
Boyd Speerschneider <bspeerscREMOVE_ME@ME_TOOyahoo.com> writes:
> "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
I've always heard that it depends on how it's translated
from the Cyrillic spelling into "reglar writin'".
--
David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software:
http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl:
http://tcl.apache.org/
> "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
I've always heard that it depends on how it's translated
from the Cyrillic spelling into "reglar writin'".
--
David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software:
http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl:
http://tcl.apache.org/
J
Jason Spaceman
Guest
BJC wrote:
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
>
>
>
> --
During the off-season he changes it back to Gonchar and
plays defence for the Boston Bruins ;-) --->
http://www.nhl.com/lineups/player/8458951.html
J. Spaceman
--
My email address ([email protected])
is fake. Email sent to it will only get caught in my
spam tarpit.
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
>
>
>
> --
During the off-season he changes it back to Gonchar and
plays defence for the Boston Bruins ;-) --->
http://www.nhl.com/lineups/player/8458951.html
J. Spaceman
--
My email address ([email protected])
is fake. Email sent to it will only get caught in my
spam tarpit.
J
Jrodgers
Guest
Hon(t)char is Ukrainian spelling; Gon(t)char is Russian
(rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name appears
on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
"Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> BJC wrote:
>
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
>
> During the off-season he changes it back to Gonchar and
> plays defence for
the Boston
> Bruins ;-) --->
> http://www.nhl.com/lineups/player/8458951.html
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman
>
>
>
> --
> My email address ([email protected]) is
> fake. Email sent
to it will
> only get caught in my spam tarpit.
(rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name appears
on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
"Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> BJC wrote:
>
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
>
> During the off-season he changes it back to Gonchar and
> plays defence for
the Boston
> Bruins ;-) --->
> http://www.nhl.com/lineups/player/8458951.html
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman
>
>
>
> --
> My email address ([email protected]) is
> fake. Email sent
to it will
> only get caught in my spam tarpit.
It's definitely spelled the same way in Russian and Ukrainian - with the Cyrillic letter "G" (looks like Greek "gamma") but the bilingual Ukrainian newspapers pretty consistently transliterate into Honchar instead of Gonchar even though it sounds more like a "g" according to the pronunciation guides I've seen.
The "t" in Gontchar must be a French thing (like in Tchaikowski), it's not in the Russian or Ukrainian.
G
Geoff
Guest
I believe that the spelling of his name changed when the
Ukranian govt changed the templates for translating between
their language ( some kind of cyrillic) to language. That
changed the 'g' in both his first and last names to an 'h'.
If I remember correctly he was a little annoyed and wanted
to maintain the old english spelling but I guess the
authorities wouldn't allow it.
That is the gist of what I recall.
Ukranian govt changed the templates for translating between
their language ( some kind of cyrillic) to language. That
changed the 'g' in both his first and last names to an 'h'.
If I remember correctly he was a little annoyed and wanted
to maintain the old english spelling but I guess the
authorities wouldn't allow it.
That is the gist of what I recall.
F
Faster Bordello
Guest
jrodgers wrote:
> Hon(t)char is Ukrainian spelling; Gon(t)char is Russian
> (rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name appears
> on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
Somewhere recently maybe bicycling.com this was discussed
and it dates back to the "cultural revolution" when the
Soviet Union tried to "unify" the provinces under one well
one everything. Has to do with the towo alphabets not
haveing interchanging letter for G and H. I've forgotten
which way it worked... I think the H is misssing in the
cyrillic script.
> Hon(t)char is Ukrainian spelling; Gon(t)char is Russian
> (rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name appears
> on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
Somewhere recently maybe bicycling.com this was discussed
and it dates back to the "cultural revolution" when the
Soviet Union tried to "unify" the provinces under one well
one everything. Has to do with the towo alphabets not
haveing interchanging letter for G and H. I've forgotten
which way it worked... I think the H is misssing in the
cyrillic script.
R
Richard Adams
Guest
BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
Spanish riders are often refered to by their patrilineal
name (father's family name) often they will also add the
mothers name after that, i.e. Roberto Heras Hernandez. There
are further additions some spaniards include (i.e. Igor
Gonzalez _de Galdeano_ may be refering to a town or region,
though I'm not positive), but I don't see them much in the
cycling team rosters.
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
Spanish riders are often refered to by their patrilineal
name (father's family name) often they will also add the
mothers name after that, i.e. Roberto Heras Hernandez. There
are further additions some spaniards include (i.e. Igor
Gonzalez _de Galdeano_ may be refering to a town or region,
though I'm not positive), but I don't see them much in the
cycling team rosters.
I
Ilan Vardi
Guest
BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name?
Like someone said, there is no H in Russian (Ukranian).
For example, in Russian, Hegel is Gegel, but no Russian
person has been able to explain to me why Gogol in English
is not Hogol.
-ilan
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name?
Like someone said, there is no H in Russian (Ukranian).
For example, in Russian, Hegel is Gegel, but no Russian
person has been able to explain to me why Gogol in English
is not Hogol.
-ilan
I
Ilan Vardi
Guest
DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> The "t" in Gontchar must be a French thing (like in
> Tchaikowski), it's not in the Russian or Ukrainian.
See the book "The Thread" by Philip Davis
http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/thread.htm
-ilan
>
> The "t" in Gontchar must be a French thing (like in
> Tchaikowski), it's not in the Russian or Ukrainian.
See the book "The Thread" by Philip Davis
http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/thread.htm
-ilan
A
Andrew Martin
Guest
BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
>
There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years ago.
Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to look
through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com, I get a
TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us well into
the 20s for one guy.
-a
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-
8&oe=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Ecyclingnews%2Ecom+gonchar Serguei
Gonchar Sergei Gonchar Sergej Gonchar Sergey Gonchar
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Honchar+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&bt-
nG=Search Serhiy Honchar Sergueï Honchar Serguei Honchar
Sergei Honchar Sergej Honchar Sergey Honchar Sergui Honchar
r+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1 Serhiy Hontchar
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Gontchar++site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&-
btnG=Search Serguei Gontchar Sergei Gontchar
> This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has been
> around for a long time. Does anybody know why he changed
> one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of name
> changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or extend
> their names from season to season?
>
There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years ago.
Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to look
through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com, I get a
TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us well into
the 20s for one guy.
-a
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-
8&oe=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Ecyclingnews%2Ecom+gonchar Serguei
Gonchar Sergei Gonchar Sergej Gonchar Sergey Gonchar
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Honchar+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&bt-
nG=Search Serhiy Honchar Sergueï Honchar Serguei Honchar
Sergei Honchar Sergej Honchar Sergey Honchar Sergui Honchar
r+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1 Serhiy Hontchar
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Gontchar++site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&-
btnG=Search Serguei Gontchar Sergei Gontchar
S
Smmb
Guest
"Boyd Speerschneider" <bspeerscREMOVE_ME@ME_TOOyahoo.com> a écrit dans le
message de :
news:[email protected]...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:8iMsc.31340$ai7.17014 @fe15.usenetserver.com:
>
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name?
Not a mystery. Cyrillic, used in Ukraine and Russia, is not
the factor. The "G" in Ukrainian is pronounced, in most
cases, as a "H" or "KH". The passport regime there has made
a nationalist point by using the Latin letter "G" just to
confuse the pronunciation, I guess.
--
Bonne route,
Sandy Paris FR
message de :
news:[email protected]...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:8iMsc.31340$ai7.17014 @fe15.usenetserver.com:
>
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name?
Not a mystery. Cyrillic, used in Ukraine and Russia, is not
the factor. The "G" in Ukrainian is pronounced, in most
cases, as a "H" or "KH". The passport regime there has made
a nationalist point by using the Latin letter "G" just to
confuse the pronunciation, I guess.
--
Bonne route,
Sandy Paris FR
O
Otto
Guest
Boyd Speerschneider <bspeerscREMOVE_ME@ME_TOOyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:8iMsc.31340$ai7.17014
>
> For latin riders (and latin people in general) it is
> traditional to take on their mother's maiden name followed
> by their father's surname. This tends to cause the
> extremely long latin names you'll see somtimes
> ie., Carlos Domingo Gomez Rodrigo Gonzales Olano Jimenez
> Fernandez de Cruz etc...
>
> Albiet most latinos(as), for the sake of sanity, tend to
> shorten it to just their first name followed by father's
> surname.
>
> - Boyd "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
It's father's last name first, then the mothers. Both are
put into official documents (passports, etc), but usually
they drop the maternal last name.
Looks like other people have explained the Honchar/Gonchar
thing better than me, but i was wondering if it depended on
what language the name was being written for, i.e. Boris
Yeltsin, was spelled differently for Dutch, or you have
Usama, or Osama for bin Laden, and a host of different
spellings for Ghadaffi/Quadafi/whatever...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:8iMsc.31340$ai7.17014
>
> For latin riders (and latin people in general) it is
> traditional to take on their mother's maiden name followed
> by their father's surname. This tends to cause the
> extremely long latin names you'll see somtimes
> ie., Carlos Domingo Gomez Rodrigo Gonzales Olano Jimenez
> Fernandez de Cruz etc...
>
> Albiet most latinos(as), for the sake of sanity, tend to
> shorten it to just their first name followed by father's
> surname.
>
> - Boyd "Don't know about the (G)Honchar thing" S.
It's father's last name first, then the mothers. Both are
put into official documents (passports, etc), but usually
they drop the maternal last name.
Looks like other people have explained the Honchar/Gonchar
thing better than me, but i was wondering if it depended on
what language the name was being written for, i.e. Boris
Yeltsin, was spelled differently for Dutch, or you have
Usama, or Osama for bin Laden, and a host of different
spellings for Ghadaffi/Quadafi/whatever...
J
Jeff Jones
Guest
"Andrew Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years
> ago. Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to
> look through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com,
> I get a TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us
> well into the 20s for one guy.
>
LOL! We'll try to stick with Serguei Gonchar from now on.
Jeff
news:[email protected]...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years
> ago. Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to
> look through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com,
> I get a TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us
> well into the 20s for one guy.
>
LOL! We'll try to stick with Serguei Gonchar from now on.
Jeff
I thought I was the only person ever to read that! I figured Tchaikowski was a better example here than Tchebychev though.
First off, let me begin by saying that I speak and read Ukrainian fluently and am pretty passable at Russian.
Russian and Ukrainian have a similar alphabet (both Cyrillic) but they are not identical. One big difference is that Ukrainian has both the "G" and "H" sounds while Russian only has the "G" sound. Now here's the really confusing part. The Russian alphabet has a single letter "G" which looks like an upside down capital letter L with no serif. In Ukrainian, a serif is sometimes added. The serif pointing up makes it a G while no serif or pointing down is an H.
Russian and Ukrainian languages are also similar (kind of like Spanish and Italian) but are also not identical. The Ukrainian word for Potter is "Honchar" while the Russian word is "Gonchar".
In translation, many westerners are still used to the old Soviet style translations where there is no translation from Ukrainian because it was not recognized as a "real" language (a Tsarist and Soviet attempt to destroy Ukrainian culture). Basically the translating culture's sensitivity to the Ukrainian struggle for cultural identity decides whether Ukrainian is translated correctly or not.
Typically, english speaking countries translate it as Russian. From looking at the UCI rankings and the Italian TV, the French and Italians recognize the difference.
-Andy B.
R
Richard Adams
Guest
[email protected] (Andrew Martin) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years
> ago. Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to
> look through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com,
> I get a TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us
> well into the 20s for one guy.
>
> -a
>
> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-
> 8&oe=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Ecyclingnews%2Ecom+gonchar Serguei
> Gonchar Sergei Gonchar Sergej Gonchar Sergey Gonchar
>
> p://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Honchar+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com-
> &btnG=Search Serhiy Honchar Sergueï Honchar Serguei
> Honchar Sergei Honchar Sergej Honchar Sergey Honchar
> Sergui Honchar
>
> site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1 Serhiy Hontchar
>
> tp://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Gontchar++site%3Awww.cyclingnews.co-
> m&btnG=Search Serguei Gontchar Sergei Gontchar
D-I-E-R-C-K-X-S-E-N-S
> BJC <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > This guy is having a hell of a Giro for a guy who has
> > been around for a long time. Does anybody know why he
> > changed one letter in his name? Also, on the topic of
> > name changes, why do many of the Latin riders change or
> > extend their names from season to season?
> >
> There was a note about this in Cycle Sport a few years
> ago. Apparently it changes a ton. Taking a couple mins to
> look through the more common spellings at cyclingnew.com,
> I get a TON of options. I'm sure the permutations take us
> well into the 20s for one guy.
>
> -a
>
> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-
> 8&oe=UTF-8&q=site:www%2Ecyclingnews%2Ecom+gonchar Serguei
> Gonchar Sergei Gonchar Sergej Gonchar Sergey Gonchar
>
> p://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Honchar+site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com-
> &btnG=Search Serhiy Honchar Sergueï Honchar Serguei
> Honchar Sergei Honchar Sergej Honchar Sergey Honchar
> Sergui Honchar
>
> site%3Awww.cyclingnews.com&num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1 Serhiy Hontchar
>
> tp://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Gontchar++site%3Awww.cyclingnews.co-
> m&btnG=Search Serguei Gontchar Sergei Gontchar
D-I-E-R-C-K-X-S-E-N-S
B
Bart Van Hooreb
Guest
every language has its own established rules for converting
foreign language characters. In Dutch with our softer G than
in English, Gonchar is correct. And we also should write
Jekimov, although most adopt the Ekimov from the dominant
western languages.
foreign language characters. In Dutch with our softer G than
in English, Gonchar is correct. And we also should write
Jekimov, although most adopt the Ekimov from the dominant
western languages.
R
Richard Adams
Guest
Faster Bordello <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> jrodgers wrote:
> > Hon(t)char is Ukrainian spelling; Gon(t)char is Russian
> > (rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name
> > appears on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
> Somewhere recently maybe bicycling.com this was discussed
> and it dates back to the "cultural revolution" when the
> Soviet Union tried to "unify" the provinces under one well
> one everything. Has to do with the towo alphabets not
> haveing interchanging letter for G and H. I've forgotten
> which way it worked... I think the H is misssing in the
> cyrillic script.
That or Les Nessman is alive and well: "ChI ChI Rod-ROW-
gweez"
> jrodgers wrote:
> > Hon(t)char is Ukrainian spelling; Gon(t)char is Russian
> > (rendered into the latin alphabet). His first name
> > appears on Italian tv OLN feed as Serhuei(?) for Sergei.
> Somewhere recently maybe bicycling.com this was discussed
> and it dates back to the "cultural revolution" when the
> Soviet Union tried to "unify" the provinces under one well
> one everything. Has to do with the towo alphabets not
> haveing interchanging letter for G and H. I've forgotten
> which way it worked... I think the H is misssing in the
> cyrillic script.
That or Les Nessman is alive and well: "ChI ChI Rod-ROW-
gweez"
