Good Legs, bad back!

[Subliminal-SS]

Hi Guys,
Just wanted to ask if anyone has any experience and overcome a similar issue to me.

These past 8 weeks have been increasing my FTP steadily.

Now getting to the point where im starting to achieve my target of 300W for 20 min. Set a PB of 295 for 15 mins, 300W for 10 mins in a recent hill climb. Felt good.

Problem is now when I try and do 2x20s at higher wattages its tough and challenging but my back is really struggling to drive the legs in the last half. My legs feel ok, they get tired, I get a second wind and then bam, the back just gives in like its been lifting HUGE weight. It’s not sore just really tired.

Has anyone ever had this, should I just take it like legs getting tired? and practice low cadence strength workouts, I pushed it yesterday it got really tired and I just exhausted it, thought rather than giving in I should just scrap the 2x20s and concentrate on exercising the lower back, wacked it in a big gear and pushed like hell. It’s really tired today but a good kind of tired.

So the question is, is this something commonly found when increasing FTP steadily over time. I'm sure a good Core workout plan would help to increase overall strength in the core, I've been thinking about giving some gym work a go do some deadlifts or something but was just wandering if anyone has any magical workout for this kind of area.

 

[Avi Tzurel]

When did you last do a bike fit?
When you change position does it help?

 

[danfoz]

I don't think back issues are specific to building FTP but cycling focuses a lot on one particular set of muscles, the extenders (glutes extend the hip, quadriceps extend the knee, gastrocs and soleus extend the foot) and lower back to some degree, and largely ignores the muscles of flexion around the hip and trunk.

Discussing "core" exercises can quickly escalate to what exactly is core, and deadlifts are certainly a core exercise, but if your issues are anything like mine, strengthening my trunk flexors (abs) and stretching my hamstrings, abs, and piriformis really helped. Back issues can have a number of culprits but in my experience it's largely from a combination of a saddle that is slightly too high and rearset, overworked piriformis, weak abdominals, and tight hamstrings. If anything I would think grinding at a lower cadence would exacerbate the issue.

Stretching after riding help me (especially hamstrings, piriformis, and the abdominal "cobra" stretch), and since I've started doing planks and using my ab roller my lower back issues have largely disappeared.

This may not be your issue, and I'm a pretty flexible guy (I can put my hands flat on the floor), but if I ignore this aspect of my fitness I'm asking for trouble in the form of a lower back spasm.

Aside from the good old hamstring stretch, the two that really help me:

Piriformis...



Cobra stretch...


Ironically many doctors are clueless in this arena and if taking that route someone who specializes in sports medicine is recommended, otherwise one is more likely to end up with no more than a prescription for pain killers.

Nice work on the FTP btw!

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to ask if anyone has any experience and overcome a similar issue to me.

These past 8 weeks have been increasing my FTP steadily.

Now getting to the point where im starting to achieve my target of 300W for 20 min. Set a PB of 295 for 15 mins, 300W for 10 mins in a recent hill climb. Felt good.

Problem is now when I try and do 2x20s at higher wattages its tough and challenging but my back is really struggling to drive the legs in the last half. My legs feel ok, they get tired, I get a second wind and then bam, the back just gives in like its been lifting HUGE weight. It’s not sore just really tired.

Has anyone ever had this, should I just take it like legs getting tired? and practice low cadence strength workouts, I pushed it yesterday it got really tired and I just exhausted it, thought rather than giving in I should just scrap the 2x20s and concentrate on exercising the lower back, wacked it in a big gear and pushed like hell. It’s really tired today but a good kind of tired.

So the question is, is this something commonly found when increasing FTP steadily over time. I'm sure a good Core workout plan would help to increase overall strength in the core, I've been thinking about giving some gym work a go do some deadlifts or something but was just wandering if anyone has any magical workout for this kind of area.

The advice given so far is good.

Another suggestion might be to try to longer rides at a steady power output. Using your figures trying cycling at 290 watts for longer period of time. This will allow your body to adopt to the stress of that output level and should help to form a base for when you move up to 300 watts
output.

Try this in conjunction with DanFoz suggestion for core training.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Thanks for the responses guys.

No it doesnt really make any difference at all with position. Can be all the way foward or all the way back on the seat.

Could be slightly far back on the bike but thats just the way it falls. In truth the bike is possibly a tad on the large side. I have very long legs.

I have a 54cm road frame. Just bought a TT bike and the Top Tube ad to be 47-50.


Those are some good stretches. I think I need to invest alot more time into some simple stretches. Bought a Roman Bench and a yoga set so going to give some proper thought into a sequence of things I can do over the winter. May aswell considering the cycling wont be in as much volume. Hopefully I wont feel to fatigued between it all but im sure it will help in the long run.


This is something that I want to work on this winter also so a good shout. I've always had a hard time holding my FTP gains for a prolonged period because I always end up in a lay off so I think I'm going to cashout soon and pull back the Over FTP stuff (10-15min intervals) and start doing longer intervals up towards an hour where I really work on muscular strength slow cadence long intervals to really try and pin my gains going into next year and build my base on a higher power level than last years. Hopefully as you say this will give me a better foundation to then build onto next year.

 

[swampy1970]

The fact that you say that you have "very long legs" yet ride only a 54cm frame suggest that something isn't correct.

What is your inside leg measurement?

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Inseam is 82cm and height is 176cm. Why do you say ONLY 54cm. That would imply to small...

 

[swampy1970]

32" inseam isn't very long - but depending on how you're positioned on your bike a 56cm might be more apt. Its not so much the seat tube that's the most important, the top tube and how long the bike is can be just as much of a factor. If I used the LeMond "jam it in the crotch" method of inseam measurement I get 34" - regular measurement yields 33.5". I prefer a 58cm frame because of the top tube length. I don't need, and can no longer tolerate a massive difference between bar and saddle height.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Needless to say as I feel my Ride is already a little on the big side I wont be increasing the size of the TT...

82cm leg at 176cm is quite long legged and would mean a smaller TT

 

[swampy1970]

If you do a longer ride - say 2 to 3 hours at around 220 watts, how does your back feel? If you do your 20 minute effort with your hands on the brake lever hoods in a "climbing position" with elbows fairly straight, does your back still feel weak?

The only problem with shorter intervals, as you've discovered, is that they bring quick gains that quickly wane if you stop training - unless you have a very nice base of quality base training. Get lots of L2 and some L3 in during the winter. You really don't need all day rides, harder rides between 2 and 3.5 hours would serve you well. L2 to start, raising to L3 towards the end. Train not strain - but there's no real harm in smashing the gears as long as you're keeping an eye on your training load.

All levels given are based on Andy Coggan's series of Levels of training.

I'd highly recommend using something like Golden Cheetah or WKO+ as a training tool to monitor your training. I prefer WKO+ but that's mainly because I've used it more. If you fill in the description fields and keep your FTP and weight correct it really is a very, very good training tool. The ability to analyze your training load easily is very handy. The book "training and racing with a powermeter" is a must if you go with WKO+.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

I skipped on Base training this year because I was only 6 months in to being on the bike so just carried on going with the 2x20s. Having trouble the past few weeks felt like **** so took a recovery week and a gentle 2 weeks. Feel a lot better now so going to do another Vo2 plan because I felt great after that able to rinse and repeat hills like never before. Also going to do it like last time but less scrimping on the 45mins tempo parts and the multiple SS 3x15etc. Should help build more strength of I do it at 70-80 cadence. Then winter going to hit the exercise ball and Base looking forward actually be nice to not have to smash or so much. Been not to bad of a year but the lack of upper body and core strength really seems to be showing itself with trying to get up above an FTP of 280. I use TP top monitor my training load had a really good really year concentrating on my July sportive. Guess a lack of concrete goals and a really bad second half of the year at home stopped me from being able to finish the year stronger.

Note the saddle sore to end all saddle sores in August didn't help!

 

[swampy1970]

Can't be skipping the base training otherwise you'll end up doing interval work and getting burned out - just like you did. The results will seem great and then it'll go downhill. You'll end up with time off the bike and your quickly realized gain will vanish almost as quickly. Upper body strength is never a problem for a roadie - a track rider that can squat hundred of pounds on a single leg and push on the pedals so hard during a 3000 watt sprint they can lift themselves off the saddle easily, can have a problem with upper body strength. If you want to do light gym type work in addition to L2 and L3 training then I guess that's all good - but I'd never substitute solid on the bike training for gym work unless you had structural issues that needed addressing. Perceived weakness due to lack of aerobic fitness (like being out of the saddle at the end of a 8 minutes long VO2 Max effort and feeling like your arms aren't strong enough for the job) shouldn't be confused with lack of physical strength. In that situation you need more base conditioning on the bike and a progressive move to higher intensity work. Chucking medicine balls around gets you good at chucking medicine balls around, not good at climbing hills at L5.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Can't be skipping the base training otherwise you'll end up doing interval work and getting burned out - just like you did. The results will seem great and then it'll go downhill. You'll end up with time off the bike and your quickly realized gain will vanish almost as quickly.

Upper body strength is never a problem for a roadie - a track rider that can squat hundred of pounds on a single leg and push on the pedals so hard during a 3000 watt sprint they can lift themselves off the saddle easily, can have a problem with upper body strength.

If you want to do light gym type work in addition to L2 and L3 training then I guess that's all good - but I'd never substitute solid on the bike training for gym work unless you had structural issues that needed addressing.

Perceived weakness due to lack of aerobic fitness (like being out of the saddle at the end of a 8 minutes long VO2 Max effort and feeling like your arms aren't strong enough for the job) shouldn't be confused with lack of physical strength. In that situation you need more base conditioning on the bike and a progressive move to higher intensity work. Chucking medicine balls around gets you good at chucking medicine balls around, not good at climbing hills at L5.

Not doing any upper body work. Could you imagine.

No when I say hit the gym its more the odd bit in front of the TV while watching a full Sky+ box of Cycling . Core exercise is also what I was referring to. Do some legs also. I've got a pretty good starting out sprint. About 1200w NP at 65kgs after the random sprint efforts scattered into the VO2 Max plan. Be a pretty handy thing to practice from what I've heard about cat4 races in the UK. Very negative apparently. Its all as a supplement. Id never replace my bike time with it. I actually stopped arsing around with it these last few weeks because its been causing me to be a bit more fatigued and that's not something I need right now.

No Medicene balls either I meant the big ass ones you sit on to do back extensions and core stuffs.

Definately going to do a big bunch of Base if time permits it this year. I'm pretty ****** at the most recent loss of fitness because previously ive had setbacks like injury or illness that has seen my gains disappear which is fair enough. This was my 3rd bite at the cherry at getting 280w 20 min power to stick and its gone again back getting flustered at 250w with no real "off time" more just recovering time. Which doesn't make an amazing amount of sense but there we go.

Guess what I probably did is loose focus on the regular training and rest cycle after getting to my goal and instead of pushing past it I thought id ride a bit to try and anchor it. It just burnt me out though and meant I was just lost with where I was. Training peaks flatlined and I was just doing 650-750TSS weeks which I thought id manage to do for a while really. Takes some dedicated 800+ weeks to improve. But hey easy come easy go. Well not so easy come but there we go.


EDIT... least my back isn't hurting anymore...

 

[swampy1970]

A very handy thing to practice in Cat4 races is racing. It's one thing to have 1200w at your disposal when fairly fresh but what's it like after a very hard 50 miles when you're "cooked"? Go out, ride 50 miles hard and in the last 10 miles Attack every hill then sprint at the end. What numbers do you average over the last 15 seconds? As for those Pilates balls, here's some words of wisdom from an Aussie strength and conditioning coach that took their track team (cycling) to domination at the Olympics about 10 years ago: "Abs and core, we do two per session - one mainly flexion, one mainly extension. Some have rotational or lateral components, but not isometric holds or pilates mumbo jumbo. If their "core stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that. It doesn't transfer to the sport. Fix their technical problems in the actual technique (soapbox time is now over). " If you spend a ton of time working in an office sitting all day, look after your Psoas. Do deep stretching after rides or several hours before. Don't to much if any stretching immediately before a hard ride and if you do make sure you balance out your stretches - if you do glutes, hamstrings and lower back also do quads and hip flexors. I have back issues that are all related to hip flexor issues and I'm getting over a nasty back issue that was caused by a rookie mistake that I've done twice before, the last time in the 90s - lots of deep hamstring and glute stretches immediately before the ride.