Good News/Bad News

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Hank Wirtz, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    So the good news-

    I got my '75 Peugeot PX-10 back from the painters (R&E Cycles -
    http://rodcycle.com ) today, and it's just gorgeous.

    It was white originally, ( http://wirtznet.net/1974PX10LE.jpg ) but in
    1987, I repainted it, and added some braze-ons, to look like the then-
    current model, which turned out to be the last year it was made. That
    was light blue with the orange & yellow decals Peugeots had those days.
    ( http://wirtznet.net/1987.jpg )

    In recent years, I'd grown to regret changing the bike's look so
    drastically, and was happy to chance upon a set of the original decals
    on Andrew Muzi's website ( http://www.yellowjersey.org/peudecal.html ).
    I wasn't too big on white, though. Then, I saw on Sheldon's site (
    http://sheldonbrown.org/px7.html ) that a few years earlier, the PX-10
    had been available in the same metallic blue as the UO-8, and that's
    what I went for.

    So here it is, in all its glory - http://wirtznet.net/2006.jpg


    Now, for the bad news-

    I'd bought a new Veloce crank and Phil Wood Bottom Bracket to go with it
    (it's all new parts...I actually ride this bike), and while waiting for
    the frame to come back, I'd bolted the arms on the BB. When I went to
    unscrew the bolts to install the crank, the drive-side one was being
    awfully difficult to get off. I thought it was the loc-tite that came
    sprayed on the bolt. I used a short piece of pipe to get a little more
    leverage on the 8mm allen wrench, AND THE HEAD OF THE BOLT BROKE OFF.

    This bottom bracket has zero miles on it, and I'm wondering what to do.
    I used my dremel to grind some flats on the bolt, but it still won't
    budge, and the corners just round. I tried heating the spindle and icing
    the bolt. Neither helped.

    Should I give up? Would it be cost-effective to send it back to Phil and
    have the spindle replaced, or would that cost more than a whole new
    unit? I have no idea whether it was the spindle threads that were bad or
    the bolt, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be covered under warranty. I
    bought the BB from Harris, so would Sheldon or Art have any advice?

    Anyway, I'll get the bike going one way or another, but I'd really hate
    to chuck a brand new Phil Wood.

    -Hank
     
    Tags:


  2. Hank Wirtz <[email protected]> writes:

    So you broke your new Phil Wood bottom bracket just to have an
    excuse to "out" your new PX-10 frame repaint, didn't you ?? For
    shame, for shame ....

    I'd take it to a professional machine shop and have them fix it.
    Probably cost $20 and they will probably slot the bolt or something
    and the bolt will be toast. Don't mess with the bolt any more by
    yourself. Afterwards I can sell you a new pair of bolts for only $85,
    one dollar cheaper than campy charges for a right-side bolt....

    - Don (grin) Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  3. Donald Gillies wrote:
    > Hank Wirtz <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > So you broke your new Phil Wood bottom bracket just to have an
    > excuse to "out" your new PX-10 frame repaint, didn't you ?? For
    > shame, for shame ....
    >
    > I'd take it to a professional machine shop and have them fix it.
    > Probably cost $20 and they will probably slot the bolt or something
    > and the bolt will be toast. Don't mess with the bolt any more by
    > yourself. Afterwards I can sell you a new pair of bolts for only $85,
    > one dollar cheaper than campy charges for a right-side bolt....
    >
    > - Don (grin) Gillies
    > San Diego, CA


    A set of Campagnolo crank bolts is $20 for the metioned crank.
     
  4. Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > So the good news-
    >
    > I got my '75 Peugeot PX-10 back from the painters (R&E Cycles -
    > http://rodcycle.com ) today, and it's just gorgeous.
    >
    > It was white originally, ( http://wirtznet.net/1974PX10LE.jpg ) but in
    > 1987, I repainted it, and added some braze-ons, to look like the then-
    > current model, which turned out to be the last year it was made. That
    > was light blue with the orange & yellow decals Peugeots had those days.
    > ( http://wirtznet.net/1987.jpg )
    >
    > In recent years, I'd grown to regret changing the bike's look so
    > drastically, and was happy to chance upon a set of the original decals
    > on Andrew Muzi's website ( http://www.yellowjersey.org/peudecal.html ).
    > I wasn't too big on white, though. Then, I saw on Sheldon's site (
    > http://sheldonbrown.org/px7.html ) that a few years earlier, the PX-10
    > had been available in the same metallic blue as the UO-8, and that's
    > what I went for.
    >
    > So here it is, in all its glory - http://wirtznet.net/2006.jpg
    >
    >
    > Now, for the bad news-
    >
    > I'd bought a new Veloce crank and Phil Wood Bottom Bracket to go with it
    > (it's all new parts...I actually ride this bike), and while waiting for
    > the frame to come back, I'd bolted the arms on the BB. When I went to
    > unscrew the bolts to install the crank, the drive-side one was being
    > awfully difficult to get off. I thought it was the loc-tite that came
    > sprayed on the bolt. I used a short piece of pipe to get a little more
    > leverage on the 8mm allen wrench, AND THE HEAD OF THE BOLT BROKE OFF.
    >
    > This bottom bracket has zero miles on it, and I'm wondering what to do.
    > I used my dremel to grind some flats on the bolt, but it still won't
    > budge, and the corners just round. I tried heating the spindle and icing
    > the bolt. Neither helped.
    >
    > Should I give up? Would it be cost-effective to send it back to Phil and
    > have the spindle replaced, or would that cost more than a whole new
    > unit? I have no idea whether it was the spindle threads that were bad or
    > the bolt, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be covered under warranty. I
    > bought the BB from Harris, so would Sheldon or Art have any advice?
    >
    > Anyway, I'll get the bike going one way or another, but I'd really hate
    > to chuck a brand new Phil Wood.
    >
    > -Hank


    Send it back to Phil....ask for Brent, I'll bet they'll make it well
    for nuthin' grease onto crank bolts is a good idea BTW-
     
  5. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:09:02 -0600, Hank Wirtz
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >...When I went to
    >unscrew the bolts to install the crank, the drive-side one was being
    >awfully difficult to get off. I thought it was the loc-tite that came
    >sprayed on the bolt. I used a short piece of pipe to get a little more
    >leverage on the 8mm allen wrench, AND THE HEAD OF THE BOLT BROKE OFF.
    >
    >This bottom bracket has zero miles on it, and I'm wondering what to do.
    >I used my dremel to grind some flats on the bolt, but it still won't
    >budge, and the corners just round. I tried heating the spindle and icing
    >the bolt. Neither helped.


    I agree with the advice about sending it back to Phil. That bolt was
    defective at the very least, and the chances are good that the threads
    on the inside of the spindle are now galled or otherwise damaged.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  6. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "Donald Gillies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > So you broke your new Phil Wood bottom bracket just to have an
    > excuse to "out" your new PX-10 frame repaint, didn't you ?? For
    > shame, for shame ....
    >


    Oh, I didn't need an excuse...I was looking forward to posting pix of it
    fully assembled, but that'll have to wait, dammit.
     
  7. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    "Hank Wirtz" wrote: Oh, I didn't need an excuse...I was looking forward to
    posting pix of it fully assembled, but that'll have to wait, dammit.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    No you don't. You can fix it in Photoshop.
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > I got my '75 Peugeot PX-10 back from the painters (R&E Cycles -
    > http://rodcycle.com ) today, and it's just gorgeous.

    -snip-
    > http://wirtznet.net/1974PX10LE.jpg
    > http://wirtznet.net/1987.jpg
    > http://www.yellowjersey.org/peudecal.html
    > http://sheldonbrown.org/px7.html
    > http://wirtznet.net/2006.jpg
    > I'd bought a new Veloce crank and Phil Wood Bottom Bracket to go with it
    > (it's all new parts...I actually ride this bike), and while waiting for
    > the frame to come back, I'd bolted the arms on the BB. When I went to
    > unscrew the bolts to install the crank, the drive-side one was being
    > awfully difficult to get off. I thought it was the loc-tite that came
    > sprayed on the bolt. I used a short piece of pipe to get a little more
    > leverage on the 8mm allen wrench, AND THE HEAD OF THE BOLT BROKE OFF.
    >
    > This bottom bracket has zero miles on it, and I'm wondering what to do.
    > I used my dremel to grind some flats on the bolt, but it still won't
    > budge, and the corners just round. I tried heating the spindle and icing
    > the bolt. Neither helped.
    >
    > Should I give up? Would it be cost-effective to send it back to Phil and
    > have the spindle replaced, or would that cost more than a whole new
    > unit? I have no idea whether it was the spindle threads that were bad or
    > the bolt, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be covered under warranty. I
    > bought the BB from Harris, so would Sheldon or Art have any advice?
    >
    > Anyway, I'll get the bike going one way or another, but I'd really hate
    > to chuck a brand new Phil Wood.


    Don't panic. Others have walked this path before you.

    When a bolt head snaps off, a good portion of the tension on
    the thread is released. Hold the spindle, bolt stump down,
    in a vise and drill from the other side. Once your drill
    bit catches, it will spin the stump right out.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  9. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Don't panic. Others have walked this path before you.
    >
    > When a bolt head snaps off, a good portion of the tension on the thread is
    > released. Hold the spindle, bolt stump down, in a vise and drill from the
    > other side. Once your drill bit catches, it will spin the stump right
    > out.
    >


    Alas, the spindle is not hollow in the middle.

    Thanks, though!

    -HW
     
  10. Hank Wirtz wrote:
    > "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > Don't panic. Others have walked this path before you.
    > >
    > > When a bolt head snaps off, a good portion of the tension on the thread is
    > > released. Hold the spindle, bolt stump down, in a vise and drill from the
    > > other side. Once your drill bit catches, it will spin the stump right
    > > out.
    > >

    >
    > Alas, the spindle is not hollow in the middle.


    It will be if you follow that procedure.
     
  11. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    "Hank Wirtz" wrote: (clip) Alas, the spindle is not hollow in the middle.
    (clip)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I believe there are left-hand drills made for this purpose--this allows you
    to go in from the broken-off end. However, if the problem is really caused
    by thread-locking compound, the stub may not spin out even with the bolt
    tension released. So this is what I would do:

    Drill a hole in the bolt with a drill that is smaller than the root diameter
    of the thread, taking care to center it as well as possible. Then go in
    with successively larger drills until you wind up with a "coil spring"
    consisting of just the thread, which you then pull out by hand. "Ah," but
    you say, "it would be virtually impossible to center the drills that well."
    That is true, so you stop drilling when the hole size reaches the threads on
    one side. Chances are by then you will have a thin shell remaining which
    can be collapsed with a pick of some sort and pulled out. Or you can run a
    tap in and break it out.

    In the worst case, you wind up spoiling the threads, so you fix it by
    installing a Helicoil.
     
  12. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Hank Wirtz" wrote: (clip) Alas, the spindle is not hollow in the middle.
    > (clip)
    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > I believe there are left-hand drills made for this purpose--this allows
    > you to go in from the broken-off end. However, if the problem is really
    > caused by thread-locking compound, the stub may not spin out even with the
    > bolt tension released. So this is what I would do:
    >
    > Drill a hole in the bolt with a drill that is smaller than the root
    > diameter of the thread, taking care to center it as well as possible.
    > Then go in with successively larger drills until you wind up with a "coil
    > spring" consisting of just the thread, which you then pull out by hand.
    > "Ah," but you say, "it would be virtually impossible to center the drills
    > that well." That is true, so you stop drilling when the hole size reaches
    > the threads on one side. Chances are by then you will have a thin shell
    > remaining which can be collapsed with a pick of some sort and pulled out.
    > Or you can run a tap in and break it out.
    >


    That's what I'm planning if Phil tells me I'm SOL.
     
  13. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:59:32 -0800, "Hank Wirtz" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> "Hank Wirtz" wrote: (clip) Alas, the spindle is not hollow in the middle.
    >> (clip)
    >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >> I believe there are left-hand drills made for this purpose


    True, and they're more widely available than was once the case.

    >>--this allows
    >> you to go in from the broken-off end. However, if the problem is really
    >> caused by thread-locking compound, the stub may not spin out even with the
    >> bolt tension released.


    Also very true. In addition, if the drill enters the material at much
    of an angle, it may get snapped off should the bolt start to spin free
    and back out.

    >>So this is what I would do:
    >>
    >> Drill a hole in the bolt with a drill that is smaller than the root
    >> diameter of the thread, taking care to center it as well as possible.
    >> Then go in with successively larger drills until you wind up with a "coil
    >> spring" consisting of just the thread, which you then pull out by hand.


    Hard. I've done it, on *rare* occasions, but generally the drill's
    going to walk off-center by at least a full millimeter.

    >> "Ah," but you say, "it would be virtually impossible to center the drills
    >> that well." That is true, so you stop drilling when the hole size reaches
    >> the threads on one side.


    Hopefully, the drill will *only* be off-center, and not off-axis as
    well.

    >>Chances are by then you will have a thin shell
    >> remaining which can be collapsed with a pick of some sort and pulled out.


    I find that a diamond-point chisel is invaluable at this juncture.

    >> Or you can run a tap in and break it out.


    Hazardous; the tap may break before the part comes free. Removing the
    broken stub of a tap is a real bugger. I'd sooner try to drill out a
    titanium or stainless steel bolt. (And I'd rather not do either of
    those if I can find a way to avoid it.)

    >That's what I'm planning if Phil tells me I'm SOL.


    Good luck, no matter what the path is.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  14. Leo Lichtman

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    Leo wrote: (clip) Or you can run a tap in and break it out.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    to which Werehatrack responded: (clip) Hazardous; the tap may break before
    the part comes free.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    So Leo points out: I hate broken taps. But in this instance, I am
    suggesting the tap be used only to dislodge a fairly thin remainder of the
    original bolt thread. And, of course, with care and lots of backing off.
     
  15. Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
    > ...grease onto crank bolts is a good idea BTW-


    Also make sure to grease the spindle tapers before mounting the cranks!

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
     
  16. Neal

    Neal Guest

    "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
    >> ...grease onto crank bolts is a good idea BTW-

    >
    > Also make sure to grease the spindle tapers before mounting the cranks!
    >
    > --
    > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    >


    Why? Park Tools says not to grease the tapers. Campagnolo also says not to
    grease them.
     
  17. Sorni

    Sorni Guest

    Neal wrote:
    > "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]


    >> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
    >>> ...grease onto crank bolts is a good idea BTW-


    >> Also make sure to grease the spindle tapers before mounting the
    >> cranks!


    > Why? Park Tools says not to grease the tapers. Campagnolo also says
    > not to grease them.


    Those hacks don't know anything.

    Bill "and we're off" S.
     
  18. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    Hank Wirtz <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > So the good news-
    >
    ><Shameless bragging snipped>


    > Now, for the bad news-
    >
    > I'd bought a new Veloce crank and Phil Wood Bottom Bracket to go with
    > it (it's all new parts...I actually ride this bike), and while waiting
    > for the frame to come back, I'd bolted the arms on the BB. When I went
    > to unscrew the bolts to install the crank, the drive-side one was
    > being awfully difficult to get off. I thought it was the loc-tite that
    > came sprayed on the bolt. I used a short piece of pipe to get a little
    > more leverage on the 8mm allen wrench, AND THE HEAD OF THE BOLT BROKE
    > OFF.
    >
    > This bottom bracket has zero miles on it, and I'm wondering what to
    > do. I used my dremel to grind some flats on the bolt, but it still
    > won't budge, and the corners just round. I tried heating the spindle
    > and icing the bolt. Neither helped.
    >
    > Should I give up? Would it be cost-effective to send it back to Phil
    > and have the spindle replaced, or would that cost more than a whole
    > new unit? I have no idea whether it was the spindle threads that were
    > bad or the bolt, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be covered under
    > warranty. I bought the BB from Harris, so would Sheldon or Art have
    > any advice?
    >
    > Anyway, I'll get the bike going one way or another, but I'd really
    > hate to chuck a brand new Phil Wood.
    >


    I'm happy to say all is well! On my brother's advice, I sprayed it with
    WD40 and let it sit for about half an hour, then on my boss's advice,
    tried to tighten the bolt, then let it sit for about 5 minutes. That let
    the WD40 soak in some more. Then it was a matter of rocking it back and
    forth in the bench vice with a crankarm another 10 degrees each time,
    until it spun free. The bolt's threads are a little munged at the very
    bottom, but the spindle seems fine. I threaded in another generic bolt
    and it went in straight, easily and without any play.

    Thanks to everybody for their advice! Now on to the important subject...

    What do you think of the paint job? :)

    -Hank
     
  19. B i l l S o r n s o n wrote:
    > Neal wrote:
    > > "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]

    >
    > >> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
    > >>> ...grease onto crank bolts is a good idea BTW-

    >
    > >> Also make sure to grease the spindle tapers before mounting the
    > >> cranks!

    >
    > > Why? Park Tools says not to grease the tapers. Campagnolo also says
    > > not to grease them.

    >
    > Those hacks don't know anything.


    To judge by most bicycle component manufacturers' websites, they really
    do not know as much as they should.

    "Install and properly tighten new cranks on the spindle after greasing
    the tapered square ends of the spindle." - Jobst Brandt [1]

    [1] <http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html>.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
     
  20. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:04:30 -0600, Hank Wirtz
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Thanks to everybody for their advice! Now on to the important subject...
    >
    >What do you think of the paint job? :)


    Well, to me it looks like what you need next is a set of vintage
    riding gear to go with it so that you can ride up to people in front
    of bike shops where you're not known and ask them what today's date
    is...and then ride off without another word. Proper accessorization
    is everything; a strange-looking but obviously clockwork watch, an
    outdated road map of someplace halfway across the country in your back
    pocket, a pack of Chesterfields rolled up in your shirtsleeve, etc.

    Of course, most people won't go to such extremes for a bit of
    performance art. (It was easy for me to drag out a tweed jacket,
    black braces, an English cap and such to go with my classic British
    roadster for an afternoon of riding around Rice U with an old Kodak 35
    camera, taking pictures of stuff and acting generally odd. Watching
    the expressions on the faces of the passersby was fun. I love messing
    with people's minds sometimes. That's why the only bumper sticker on
    the back of my car has an esoteric geologist's joke on it.)
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
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