Good News/Bad News

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Hank Wirtz, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Jobst Brandt [email protected] wrote:
    > ...Similarly, no manufacturer of brakes could
    > explain why bicycle disks are the only ones that are full of holes
    > today. This appears to be a hold-over from the "gas bearing" myth of
    > automobile drum brakes....


    Since "weight weenie" cyclists often shop for components based on
    catalog weights, a disc rotor with holes will have a competitive
    advantage of a disc without. In addition, the holes catch the eye as a
    perceived improvement over plain disc rotors, since the holes are an
    added "feature". No engineering involved, just marketing.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
     


  2. john

    john Guest

    Hank, The paint job looks great! That's a color I really like. Although
    I think if I ever got a PX10, I'd keep it white. To me PX10s are white
    even if it isn't as pretty.

    >...Then it was a matter of rocking it back and
    >forth in the bench vice with a crankarm another 10 degrees each time,
    >until it spun free....


    For the sake of my future knowledge, should I ever encounter this
    situation, could you please further explain what you mean by the above
    quote and how that would cause a crank bolt broken at the head to come
    out of the spindle?
    There's something I don't understand here,

    Thank you, John
     
  3. john

    john Guest

    Hank, The paint job looks great! That's a color I really like. Although
    I think if I ever got a PX10, I'd keep it white. To me PX10s are white
    even if it isn't as pretty.

    >...Then it was a matter of rocking it back and
    >forth in the bench vice with a crankarm another 10 degrees each time,
    >until it spun free....


    For the sake of my future knowledge, should I ever encounter this
    situation, could you please further explain what you mean by the above
    quote and how that would cause a crank bolt broken at the head to come
    out of the spindle?
    There's something I don't understand here,

    Thank you, John
     
  4. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >> Nazis! Hitler! There, stopped ya. [See Godwin]

    > >
    > > Ineffectual. See Quirk's exception.
    > >
    > > Furthermore you manifest a common misconception: that a
    > > thread is over when a comparison to Hitler is made. The
    > > law is that as a thread continues to grow the probability
    > > that someone will draw a comparison between one
    > > personality and Hitler approaches one.
    > >
    > > A personality drawing a comparison between another
    > > personality and Hitler is considered to have lost the
    > > argument.
    > >
    > > Finally, it is considered poor form to explicitly invoke
    > > the law.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Michael Press

    >
    > But nobody brings up the true relevance of Hitler to cycling threads. Do you
    > recall ever seeing photos of him wearing a helmet? Then think about Michael
    > Dukakis. He's known as the man who lost an election because he wore a helmet
    > in a photo where he's driving a tank. Wear a helmet, look like a dork, lose
    > everything. Don't wear a helmet, become an egotistical fascist and lose
    > everything.
    >
    > Helmets are for dorks. Fascists don't wear helmets. Everybody loses.


    Ah, umm ... yes, Mike.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  5. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >> Nazis! Hitler! There, stopped ya. [See Godwin]

    > >
    > > Ineffectual. See Quirk's exception.
    > >
    > > Furthermore you manifest a common misconception: that a
    > > thread is over when a comparison to Hitler is made. The
    > > law is that as a thread continues to grow the probability
    > > that someone will draw a comparison between one
    > > personality and Hitler approaches one.
    > >
    > > A personality drawing a comparison between another
    > > personality and Hitler is considered to have lost the
    > > argument.
    > >
    > > Finally, it is considered poor form to explicitly invoke
    > > the law.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Michael Press

    >
    > But nobody brings up the true relevance of Hitler to cycling threads. Do you
    > recall ever seeing photos of him wearing a helmet? Then think about Michael
    > Dukakis. He's known as the man who lost an election because he wore a helmet
    > in a photo where he's driving a tank. Wear a helmet, look like a dork, lose
    > everything. Don't wear a helmet, become an egotistical fascist and lose
    > everything.
    >
    > Helmets are for dorks. Fascists don't wear helmets. Everybody loses.


    Ah, umm ... yes, Mike.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  6. Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> writes:

    >Quoth Jobst Brandt:


    > > Campagnolo people are not engineers but rather sales
    >> people, the engineers being Italian and staying mainly in Italy. The
    >> people on the stand at the show repeat the American mantra we hear on
    >> this forum of no grease.
    >>
    >> Why this is believed is not explained


    >As a former believer in "no grease" I think I can perhaps exlain it.


    >The concern is that over time, after multiple cycles of
    >removal/re-installation of the crank, the hole may become enlarged. The
    >belief is that the presence of grease, allowing the crank to go farther
    >onto the spindle for a given amount of torque, will accelerate this
    >enlargement.


    >There may have been a bit of truth to it back in the days of
    >cup-and-cone bottom brackets, when cranks needed to regularly be removed
    >for bearing overhaul/adjustment.


    >Now we use cartridge bearing bottom brackets, so the cranks only come
    >off when a new bottom bracket unit is needed (not all that often!)


    >Thus the concern over deforming the crank's hole is much less well taken
    >than it was hithertofore.


    >Indeed, if you don't grease it, and leave it on until the cartridge bb
    >croaks, you are running a great risk of stripping out the extractor
    >threads when the time does come.


    A very lucid explanation, thank you sheldon.

    It used to be that crankset lives were governed by spider fracture and
    snaps (many at the pedal eye.) Now that we have much more reliable
    cranks with chainring bolts on the 5th crank arm, and much beefier
    pedal eyes, will the age of cranks as measured by bottom bracket
    removal/replacement cycles start to creep back up like days of yore ??

    in that case, don't grease the spindle when you install a crankset arm
    onto the bottom bracket, *grin*.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  7. Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> writes:

    >Quoth Jobst Brandt:


    > > Campagnolo people are not engineers but rather sales
    >> people, the engineers being Italian and staying mainly in Italy. The
    >> people on the stand at the show repeat the American mantra we hear on
    >> this forum of no grease.
    >>
    >> Why this is believed is not explained


    >As a former believer in "no grease" I think I can perhaps exlain it.


    >The concern is that over time, after multiple cycles of
    >removal/re-installation of the crank, the hole may become enlarged. The
    >belief is that the presence of grease, allowing the crank to go farther
    >onto the spindle for a given amount of torque, will accelerate this
    >enlargement.


    >There may have been a bit of truth to it back in the days of
    >cup-and-cone bottom brackets, when cranks needed to regularly be removed
    >for bearing overhaul/adjustment.


    >Now we use cartridge bearing bottom brackets, so the cranks only come
    >off when a new bottom bracket unit is needed (not all that often!)


    >Thus the concern over deforming the crank's hole is much less well taken
    >than it was hithertofore.


    >Indeed, if you don't grease it, and leave it on until the cartridge bb
    >croaks, you are running a great risk of stripping out the extractor
    >threads when the time does come.


    A very lucid explanation, thank you sheldon.

    It used to be that crankset lives were governed by spider fracture and
    snaps (many at the pedal eye.) Now that we have much more reliable
    cranks with chainring bolts on the 5th crank arm, and much beefier
    pedal eyes, will the age of cranks as measured by bottom bracket
    removal/replacement cycles start to creep back up like days of yore ??

    in that case, don't grease the spindle when you install a crankset arm
    onto the bottom bracket, *grin*.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  8. Sorni

    Sorni Guest

    Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

    > I'm still waiting to see my first failure of an Octalink crank due to
    > elastic backlash. Actually, I'm still waiting to see my first failure
    > of an Octalink axle/crank attachment period. Well, OK, second one. We
    > did see one a couple years ago where a shop had somehow managed to
    > tighten it down across the *top* of the splines, instead of mating
    > the surfaces. Don't think that counts in this discussion.


    And, in fact, I've done that at least twice now, and no damage was done.
    (Scared the hell out of me first time with brand-new D-A triple crankset,
    though, I must say!) I didn't RIDE 'em like that, but I sure had tightened
    'em down.

    Ran XTR cranks on an Ultegra BB with zero problems (other than wearing out
    middle ring and not finding an inexpensive replacement to this day); same
    thing with Ultegra/105 and D-A/D-A. Stiff, solid, tight -- what's not to
    like?

    Bill "Shimano's alright w/me" S.
     
  9. Donald Gillies redundantly wrote:
    > ...crank arm...
    > ...crankset arm...


    How about "crank"?

    --
    Tom "Cranky" Sherman - Fox River Valley
     
  10. Tom Sherman writes:

    >> ...crank arm...
    >> ...crankset arm...


    > How about "crank"?


    Dictionary:

    # crank (noun)

    # 1 : a bent part of an axle or shaft or an arm keyed at right angles
    # to the end of a shaft by which circular motion is imparted to or
    # received from the shaft or by which reciprocating motion is changed
    # into circular motion or vice versa

    It used to be the English who brought us "set" theory but embellished
    speech is now rampant everywhere, crankset arm, chainset, frameset,
    brakeset, hubset,...

    Coming soon: impactset to replace effect/affect.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  11. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Mike Jacoubowsky <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    > #2: Shimano is one of the most forward-thinking companies out there,
    > and is very progressive about product issues. If they saw a product
    > fail, and identify a way to improve it, they do. But to suggest that
    > that means prior product is poorly designed and likely to fail is a
    > leap that I don't feel is justified.


    While you were probably being whimsical, the newest trendiest class-action
    products liability theory and practice is exactly that - purported design
    and manufacturing defects which _may_ evolve into actual failures, with
    ensuing injury.

    Over here, I just get to read about this. Perhaps Brother Beattie can offer
    more insight. It does strengthen my feeling that good lawyer advocacy is
    nigh to speculative fiction writing.
    --
    Sandy

    The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
    denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
    "you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
    to [insert NAME here].
     
  12. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Mike Jacoubowsky <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    > #2: Shimano is one of the most forward-thinking companies out there,
    > and is very progressive about product issues. If they saw a product
    > fail, and identify a way to improve it, they do. But to suggest that
    > that means prior product is poorly designed and likely to fail is a
    > leap that I don't feel is justified.


    To follow up with two references :

    http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=35734&searchresults=1

    http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=31747&searchresults=1

    The second one may be particularly interesting in this forum.
    --
    Les faits relatés ici ne sont que pure fiction, et ne sauraient être
    utilisés ou rapprochés d'une situation réelle existant ou ayant
    existée
     
  13. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "john" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Hank, The paint job looks great! That's a color I really like.
    > Although I think if I ever got a PX10, I'd keep it white. To me PX10s
    > are white even if it isn't as pretty.


    It may not be authentic for the '75 vintage, but Sheldon's blue '72 PX10
    gives me some plausible deniability...

    >
    >>...Then it was a matter of rocking it back and
    >>forth in the bench vice with a crankarm another 10 degrees each time,
    >>until it spun free....

    >
    > For the sake of my future knowledge, should I ever encounter this
    > situation, could you please further explain what you mean by the above
    > quote and how that would cause a crank bolt broken at the head to come
    > out of the spindle?
    > There's something I don't understand here,
    >
    > Thank you, John
    >


    The stump stuck out about half an inch, on which I filed flats. I
    clamped the stump in the vise. When it broke, I was only trying to
    loosen it, forgetting that, like when tapping threads, one must back off
    before going too far forward, lest the tap get stuck. With the stump
    secured, I tightened the bolt, then loosened it. Each time back and
    forth increased the range of motion until the bolt was free of the
    spindle's damaged threads.

    I tapped it out the next day. About an inch in, I thought I'd bottomed
    out, so I backed the tap out and measured the depth of the hole with the
    WD40's straw, and saw I had quite a ways to go. Using plenty of oil and
    lots of back-and-forth, I got the threads cleaned out and the extra-long
    campy bolts have no problems now.

    I hope that makes sense.

    -Hank
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>,
    Johnny Sunset ([email protected]) wrote:
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] wrote:
    > > ...Similarly, no manufacturer of brakes could
    > > explain why bicycle disks are the only ones that are full of holes
    > > today. This appears to be a hold-over from the "gas bearing" myth of
    > > automobile drum brakes....

    >
    > Since "weight weenie" cyclists often shop for components based on
    > catalog weights, a disc rotor with holes will have a competitive
    > advantage of a disc without. In addition, the holes catch the eye as a
    > perceived improvement over plain disc rotors, since the holes are an
    > added "feature". No engineering involved, just marketing.


    AND, if one asks nicely, the lads at Hope will laser-cut letters into
    the disc. Those on my Speedmachine have the word "Speedmachine" write
    thereupon, though I hasten to add that this was the doing of Darth
    Stuart, not me...

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Frozen gorillas can be used to control the temperature of a warm and
    stuffy room.
     
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