Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.

[Bill Patterson]

You are right. But you folks aren't riding around in disgusting, multi
ton, death dealing SUV's.

Dave Larrington wrote:

> HHS wrote:
>
>
>>Oil prices up. Car- free cities a distinct possibility.
>
>
> In other news, Satan travels to work on cross-country skis, pig collides
> with A320 over Frankfurt and Robert Mugabe accepts defeat in Zibabwean
> general election.
>
> Fuel here is about three times the price it is in the US, it costs five quid
> a day to drive into the centre of London and it's entirely possible to spend
> two or three times that on parking. And guess what? The streets are awash
> with motorcars.
>


--
Don’t be a 0 to 60 sheep, be a 60 mpg wolf. Yes Miles Per Gallon.

See some Bikes At:

http://home.earthlink.net/~wm.patterson/index.html


Class and Helicopter

http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/

The Pony Express
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/6850/PonySong.html


Reply to [email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

 

[Mark Leuck]

"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1112617879.a2ccb94135a9902d1c35bdacfb6ad86c@teranews...
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > "Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote
> > >
> > > Gore never made the "I invented the Internet" remark either.
> >
> > True but with Gore it seems like it's told more jokingly than the Watt
> > "statement". I could be wrong
>
> See Watt-related Doonesbury series on the subject for humorous
> take... It's fair to say Watt much favored development over
> preservation.

Yes Doonesbury is a great source for unbiased reporting

> Citing the "second coming" in congressional testimony regarding
> federal public lands policy is "colorful" to say the least and so
> likewise, apparently, was Watt's taste in jokes. He resigned
> after using the c-word (cripple) and in describing the diversity
> of his staff (in a joking reference). Later lying to a grand jury
> (withholding evidence) about his consulting work didn't exactly
> help his legacy.

I do remember that, was also in trouble for a few other things he said like
that, wasn't that statement something like "I have a black, a jew and a
cripple working for me"?

> The oil crisis in the '70s resulted in many changes in the
> auto industry, and may have marked the beginning of the
> big three's slide. It will be interesting to see how the
> current oil prices will change the market.

Nonsense, the big three will create smaller cars because that's what the
public now wants, same held true when the big 4 were in trouble during the
70's and early 80's during the first gas crisis. They couldn't adapt fast
enough and japanese cars became popular because they already were small and
more efficient. In this case with quick production turnarounds I doubt they
have the same problems, the real question is will the public buy them or
stick with big vehicles and pay the higher fuel bills

> What recumbent bikes were being made in the early '80s?
>
> Jon Meinecke

Avatar is the only one I can think of

 

[Mark Leuck]

Sure they do, they have many of the same vehicles we do in the US. Ever hear
of Rover?


"Bill Patterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You are right. But you folks aren't riding around in disgusting, multi
> ton, death dealing SUV's.
>
> Dave Larrington wrote:
>
> > HHS wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Oil prices up. Car- free cities a distinct possibility.
> >
> >
> > In other news, Satan travels to work on cross-country skis, pig collides
> > with A320 over Frankfurt and Robert Mugabe accepts defeat in Zibabwean
> > general election.
> >
> > Fuel here is about three times the price it is in the US, it costs five
quid
> > a day to drive into the centre of London and it's entirely possible to
spend
> > two or three times that on parking. And guess what? The streets are
awash
> > with motorcars.
> >
>
>
> --
> Don’t be a 0 to 60 sheep, be a 60 mpg wolf. Yes Miles Per Gallon.
>
> See some Bikes At:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~wm.patterson/index.html
>
>
> Class and Helicopter
>
> http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/
>
> The Pony Express
> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/6850/PonySong.html
>
>
> Reply to [email protected]
> [email protected]
> [email protected]

 

[Dave Larrington]

Bill Patterson wrote:

> You are right. But you folks aren't riding around in disgusting, multi
> ton, death dealing SUV's.

Not to the same extent that youse lot are, but sales of the wretched things
are soaring. Admittedly most of ones over here are smaller than the average
USAnian model, but the new Land Rover Discovery still weighs about 2.75
tonnes...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

 

[Jon Meinecke]

"Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> "Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > See Watt-related Doonesbury series on the subject for humorous
> > take... It's fair to say Watt much favored development over
> > preservation.
>
> Yes Doonesbury is a great source for unbiased reporting

I cited humor, not reporting. Trudeau's satirical take on Watt
was classic. (Humor was cited for misquoting Gore.)

> [Watt's] statement something like "I have a black, a jew and a
> cripple working for me"?

I seem to recall it was the c-word that raised most ire. Watt's
public lands policies aside, he was almost a self parody. He
banned the Beach Boys from playing a 4th of July concert in
Washington because they would attract the "wrong element."

> > The oil crisis in the '70s resulted in many changes in the
> > auto industry, and may have marked the beginning of the
> > big three's slide. It will be interesting to see how the
> > current oil prices will change the market.
>
> Nonsense,

What nonsense? Oil prices in 70's did not result in market
changes that affected the auto industry??

It was not just smaller cars and fuel economy, but also
improvements in quality, reliability, design innovation,
manufacturing processes, just-in-time parts, etc... The
great American auto industry of the 70's was "ripe" for
change.

> the big three will create smaller cars because that's what the
> public now wants,

If indeed they do, that would be an interesting change in the
market, of course. (Note I cited interesting to see changes
in _market_, not _industry_.)

> the real question is will the public buy them [fuel efficient cars]
> or stick with big vehicles and pay the higher fuel bills

Changes in the price of oil affect market dynamics of the auto
industry, airlines, freight delivery, fuel intensive manufacturing...
Even the cost and availability of fresh flowers (mostly shipped by
air) is affected. Rising fuel prices may enable innovation or
expand certain product niches, e.g., hybrid gas/electric cars,
fuel cells, ...

Car-free cities of any substantial size for US are a distinctly
*unlikely* outcome anytime soon (to get back to the subject line).
I doubt there's any evidence form the '70's of measurable
increases in bicycles use for transpiration displacing
the use of cars.

"Gee, honey, it costs so $#@!$ much to fill up the Hummer, I
think I'll ride a bicycle to work instead." -- not! ;`P

Maybe it will sell more Harley's, though... %^)

Jon Meinecke

 

[Mark Leuck]

"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1112706130.ea4890625d40be8430fb58cc53ac9dc3@teranews...
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > "Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > See Watt-related Doonesbury series on the subject for humorous
> > > take... It's fair to say Watt much favored development over
> > > preservation.
> >
> > Yes Doonesbury is a great source for unbiased reporting
>
> I cited humor, not reporting. Trudeau's satirical take on Watt
> was classic. (Humor was cited for misquoting Gore.)

My response was meant as humor as well

> > [Watt's] statement something like "I have a black, a jew and a
> > cripple working for me"?
>
> I seem to recall it was the c-word that raised most ire. Watt's
> public lands policies aside, he was almost a self parody. He
> banned the Beach Boys from playing a 4th of July concert in
> Washington because they would attract the "wrong element."

Yup, even ****** off Nancy Reagan on that one

> > > The oil crisis in the '70s resulted in many changes in the
> > > auto industry, and may have marked the beginning of the
> > > big three's slide. It will be interesting to see how the
> > > current oil prices will change the market.
> >
> > Nonsense,
>
> What nonsense? Oil prices in 70's did not result in market
> changes that affected the auto industry??

Nonsense as in the big 3's slide not that it didn't change the market, The
big 3 will adapt just like any other car company

The big 3's slide during the 70's was due to it not being able to adapt
quickly which isn't the case now, at least they aren't any more or less
quick to change than any other car company

> It was not just smaller cars and fuel economy, but also
> improvements in quality, reliability, design innovation,
> manufacturing processes, just-in-time parts, etc... The
> great American auto industry of the 70's was "ripe" for
> change.

True but the quality/reliability improvements were due to increased
competition from the japanese car companies not because of high energy
prices.

> > the big three will create smaller cars because that's what the
> > public now wants,
>
> If indeed they do, that would be an interesting change in the
> market, of course. (Note I cited interesting to see changes
> in _market_, not _industry_.)

I'm sure they will offer more models of smaller cars however I have a
feeling not much will change as far as buying habits go

> > the real question is will the public buy them [fuel efficient cars]
> > or stick with big vehicles and pay the higher fuel bills
>
> Changes in the price of oil affect market dynamics of the auto
> industry, airlines, freight delivery, fuel intensive manufacturing...
> Even the cost and availability of fresh flowers (mostly shipped by
> air) is affected. Rising fuel prices may enable innovation or
> expand certain product niches, e.g., hybrid gas/electric cars,
> fuel cells, ...

No question


> Car-free cities of any substantial size for US are a distinctly
> *unlikely* outcome anytime soon (to get back to the subject line).
> I doubt there's any evidence form the '70's of measurable
> increases in bicycles use for transpiration displacing
> the use of cars.
>
> "Gee, honey, it costs so $#@!$ much to fill up the Hummer, I
> think I'll ride a bicycle to work instead." -- not! ;`P

That was part of my point when this thread started, many of the militants
here hope the price skyrockets so they can have more people participating in
their personal hobby which won't be the case. They will still be riding the
streets with SUV's (maybe slightly smaller ones) but the traffic will not go
away


> Maybe it will sell more Harley's, though... %^)

Have you seen the poor fuel economy on those lately? :<)

 

[Jon Meinecke]

"Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> "Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> [Watt], even ****** off Nancy Reagan on that one

I hadn't considered the crossing Nancy may have been the
thing that got him eventually resigned. %^)

> The big 3's slide during the 70's was due to it not being able to adapt
> quickly which isn't the case now, at least they aren't any more or less
> quick to change than any other car company

Yes, it is tough to distinguish one big car company from another.
Toyota and Honda have gotten a head start on marketing hybrids,
though...

The big three "American" are now multinationals. So are in fact
the Japanese big three... Is a Toyota Matrix (built in the same
plant in CA as the Pontiac Vibe) an American car? The Chevy
Aveo is from Korea, I think... Geo before that.

> True but the quality/reliability improvements were due to increased
> competition from the japanese car companies not because of high energy
> prices.

Perhaps the 70's oil crisis (prices, localized shortages, lines at gas
stations, fill-up limits) opened the door (wider) for Japanese cars...
The appeal of better fuel economy was greater when fuel was
harder to get and more expensive. OPEC flexing muscles.
"What's good for GM is good for the USA!"

> That was part of my point when this thread started, many of the militants
> here hope the price skyrockets so they can have more people participating
in
> their personal hobby which won't be the case. They will still be riding
the
> streets with SUV's (maybe slightly smaller ones) but the traffic will not
go
> away

As Douglas Adams might say, US car-free cities seem a
"finite improbability" even with current fuel prices doubling or
even tripling. ANWR will provide. %^) Marketing.

> > Maybe it will sell more Harley's, though... %^)
>
> Have you seen the poor fuel economy on those lately? :<)

Hummer might be characterized as a trophy/status/image vehicle
for most of their buyers. Harley has been that for many years
longer. Marketing. Somewhat different targets, probably. I
presume Harley mpg is still better than 10.

One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer (see their add in
DMN) has charts that show how much money you save in a
year if you move up from a 12/14/17 mpg vehicle to their
28/38/48 mpg offerings. Marketing.

"Plastics?" Forget it, Mr Robinson.
Marketing. The future is in marketing. TSB.

Jon Meinecke

 

[Mark Leuck]

"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1112796200.d671bf359b25e0798bc55c4ce586abc6@teranews...
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > "Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > [Watt], even ****** off Nancy Reagan on that one
>
> I hadn't considered the crossing Nancy may have been the
> thing that got him eventually resigned. %^)

It was for John Deaver if I remember right, or could have been Donald Regan


> > The big 3's slide during the 70's was due to it not being able to adapt
> > quickly which isn't the case now, at least they aren't any more or less
> > quick to change than any other car company
>
> Yes, it is tough to distinguish one big car company from another.
> Toyota and Honda have gotten a head start on marketing hybrids,
> though...

And they've done a good job of it however there are 2 problems with hybrids

1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more expensive

I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never make
up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they really
gained?

2. They are are much more complicated so you will later pay high maintenance
costs, Honda if I recall says the batteries will last 10 years but I'd
really like to see if that is indeed the case

I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance and higher
economy

> The big three "American" are now multinationals. So are in fact
> the Japanese big three... Is a Toyota Matrix (built in the same
> plant in CA as the Pontiac Vibe) an American car? The Chevy
> Aveo is from Korea, I think... Geo before that.

GM has heavy investments in Toyota, controlling interest in Suzuki and Dawoo
and owns Saab. Honda is on it's own and Nissan is controlled by Renault

> > True but the quality/reliability improvements were due to increased
> > competition from the japanese car companies not because of high energy
> > prices.
>
> Perhaps the 70's oil crisis (prices, localized shortages, lines at gas
> stations, fill-up limits) opened the door (wider) for Japanese cars...
> The appeal of better fuel economy was greater when fuel was
> harder to get and more expensive. OPEC flexing muscles.
> "What's good for GM is good for the USA!"

If you put it that way then yes the 70's crisis did improve vehicles because
of higher oil prices the japanese became bigger competitors....however fuel
was hard to get to only for a short amount of time in the US, those long
lines and shortages didn't last very long and only happened in certain areas
(at least I've never seen them)

Because cars are becoming more of a commodity the role of GM isn't like it
was, while they do sell more cars than the "good ole days" what's good for
the USA is now meant for IBM, Intel and Microsoft

> > That was part of my point when this thread started, many of the
militants
> > here hope the price skyrockets so they can have more people
participating
> in
> > their personal hobby which won't be the case. They will still be riding
> the
> > streets with SUV's (maybe slightly smaller ones) but the traffic will
not
> go
> > away
>
> As Douglas Adams might say, US car-free cities seem a
> "finite improbability" even with current fuel prices doubling or
> even tripling. ANWR will provide. %^) Marketing.

Unfortunatly Doug isn't saying anything now (bad humor). ANWR won't replace
OPEC but it would help prevent future spikes like this

> Hummer might be characterized as a trophy/status/image vehicle
> for most of their buyers. Harley has been that for many years
> longer. Marketing. Somewhat different targets, probably. I
> presume Harley mpg is still better than 10.

About 30 last time I checked however compared to other cycles it's pretty
poor

> One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer (see their add in
> DMN) has charts that show how much money you save in a
> year if you move up from a 12/14/17 mpg vehicle to their
> 28/38/48 mpg offerings. Marketing.

They don't tell you tho how you get to work in the rain or snow

> "Plastics?" Forget it, Mr Robinson.
> Marketing. The future is in marketing. TSB.

TSB?

 

[Jon Meinecke]

"Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> ... there are 2 problems with hybrids
>
> 1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
> expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
> subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more expensive
>
> I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
> people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never make
> up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they really
> gained?

A foothold? Marketing. Price is less subsidized than previously.
Higher fuel costs and public perceptions means market will bear
higher prices. Hybrids are on "allocation" in many areas.

Air pollution is an indirect cost of motor vehicles. Hybrids might
reduce that cost (small effect). Not a simple equation. Have to
consider environmental costs of manufacturing and recycling
batteries, etc...

US'ers in some places buy hybrids for car-pool lane access.
Many people would pay $$$$ to reduce commute time.

> batteries will last 10 years

Battery replacement and recycling adds to cost. Toyota said
80,000 miles, I think.

> I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
> and higher economy

Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?

> [70's] fuel was hard to get to only for a short amount of time
> in the US, those long lines and shortages didn't last very long
> and only happened in certain areas (at least I've never seen them)

Perception. Marketing (OPEC) Pictures of gas lines
on TV went a long way...

> what's good for
> the USA is now meant for IBM, Intel and Microsoft

High-tech outsourcing. What's good for India, Shanghai,
Viet Nam, Czechoslovakia...

> Unfortunatly Doug isn't saying anything now (bad humor).

He makes an appearance in the recently released BBC _HHGG
Tertiary Phase_ series. By which, we now know why we will
never understand '42'.

> ANWR won't replace OPEC

What will replace ANWR? ;^(
Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.

> but [drilling ANWR] would help prevent future spikes like this

We may shall see. Incremental, likely small effect at best.

> > One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer
> > [...] Marketing.
>
> They don't tell you tho how you get to work in the rain or snow

It's a DFW Honda *car* dealer running ads showing fuel
operating cost comparisons.

> > Marketing. The future is in marketing. TSB.
>
> TSB?

Oops, 'A', actually. TSA Marketing. Don't you feel safer now? %^P

US market perceptions:
Recumbent bikes: weird, strange, fringe.
Bicycles: toys for children
Cycling: unsafe
H*lm*ts: !don't go there! %^)

Jon Meinecke

 

[Dave Larrington]

Jon Meinecke wrote:
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote

>> I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
>> and higher economy
>
> Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).

Fortunately over here it never went away, in spite of the MRTP latching onto
the popularity of diseasel cars in the early 90's and banging up the duty on
it to the extent that it is slightly /more/ expensive than petrol. In the
UK now, diesels account for about 1/3 of the new car market; the proportion
is considerably higher in much of continental Europe where the fuel is still
much cheaper than petrol. Even top-end motorcars like the Mercedes S-class
and BMW 7-series can be had with oil-burners, and IIRC something like 50% of
S-classes sold in Germany are diesels.

The next round of Euro emissions standards come down hard on particulate
emissions, but the latest generation of engines from the likes of PSA and VW
are already compliant.

> Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?

Most European trains seem to be electric only these days though there are
still a few diseasel/electric or plain diesel ones around. In places like
N. America or Australia, the cost of putting up the supply probably makes it
impractical.


> Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
> It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.

It /is/ still screamingly funny in parts, though.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

 

[Jon Meinecke]

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Jon Meinecke wrote:
> > Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
>
> The next round of Euro emissions standards come down hard on particulate
> emissions, but the latest generation of engines from the likes of PSA and
VW
> are already compliant.

That's good news. The VW Turbo diesel models in the US a
few years ago were reported to have high particulate level...

50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]
A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.

> > Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?
>
> Most European trains seem to be electric only

Most light rail/commuter trains are electric for US as well.

> > Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
> > It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.
>
> It /is/ still screamingly funny in parts, though.

Yes. I loaned my copy out a few years ago and never got it
back. Need to visit the second hand book store again. Was it
Bali where he asked the taxi driver to take him someplace away
from tourists only to be taken to the place where taxi drivers
take tourists who asked to be taken someplace away from
tourists. I also like the chapter on kiwis (my rec.backcountry
net.species).

Adams as Agrajag in episode four of the _Tertiary Phase_
is wonderful. Guess the series was in production for a
number of years. He is missed by many. RIP

Jon Meinecke

 

[Mark Leuck]

"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1112879354.547618eadf0910c46f0b8c5366523467@teranews...
> "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > ... there are 2 problems with hybrids
> >
> > 1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
> > expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
> > subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more
expensive
> >
> > I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
> > people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never
make
> > up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they
really
> > gained?
>
> A foothold? Marketing. Price is less subsidized than previously.
> Higher fuel costs and public perceptions means market will bear
> higher prices. Hybrids are on "allocation" in many areas.

Then if the market will bear the higher vehicle prices it will also bear
higher fuel prices no?

Hybrids are hot sellers now because like the ipod they are more of a fashion
statement (my opinon anyway)

> Air pollution is an indirect cost of motor vehicles. Hybrids might
> reduce that cost (small effect). Not a simple equation. Have to
> consider environmental costs of manufacturing and recycling
> batteries, etc...

Lets see, more manufacturing for batteries, electric motors etc, more coal
generated electricity to recharge those cars. someone needs to do a study on
that stuff and see if all we're doing is moving around pollution and not
reducing it

> US'ers in some places buy hybrids for car-pool lane access.
> Many people would pay $$$$ to reduce commute time.

Most people still don't use the car-pool lane period

> > batteries will last 10 years
>
> Battery replacement and recycling adds to cost. Toyota said
> 80,000 miles, I think.

Unfortunatly manufacturers often overstate those kinds of figures, we shall
see if they hold up

> > I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
> > and higher economy
>
> Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
> Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?

Yes they use diesel powered electric motors although thats not used in the
same way as hybrid cars

> > [70's] fuel was hard to get to only for a short amount of time
> > in the US, those long lines and shortages didn't last very long
> > and only happened in certain areas (at least I've never seen them)
>
> Perception. Marketing (OPEC) Pictures of gas lines
> on TV went a long way...

At the time yes although when the times turned good they quickly forgot
those lines

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Not in the early 80's, but I had a MASA recumbent in 1979 and then an Avatar
and then a Tour Easy clone and then a Nordica delta that a Garbage truck
backed over.

Joshua
******
>> What recumbent bikes were being made in the early '80s?
>>
>> Jon Meinecke
>
> Avatar is the only one I can think of
>
>

 

[Mark Leuck]

Got any pictures of the MASA? I never heard of that one

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not in the early 80's, but I had a MASA recumbent in 1979 and then an
Avatar
> and then a Tour Easy clone and then a Nordica delta that a Garbage truck
> backed over.
>
> Joshua
> ******
> >> What recumbent bikes were being made in the early '80s?
> >>
> >> Jon Meinecke
> >
> > Avatar is the only one I can think of
> >
> >
>
>

 

[Dave Larrington]

Jon Meinecke wrote:

> 50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
> they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]

Probably slightly better, but the only hybrids available in the UK are the
Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. Both are ferociously expensive even
with the "loss-leader" pricing and not terribly practical for lugging bikes
around in. Equivalent sized diesel cars drink the same or less and cost 2/3
the price - or less in the case of Citroen.

> A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.

My motorcar - a Skoda Fabia - has the same engine and has so far required
naught but a routine service. 55-60 mpg with restraint and quick enough to
keep up with most people on the autobahn without it...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

 

[Dave Larrington]

Mark Leuck wrote:
> Got any pictures of the MASA? I never heard of that one

<URL: http://home.mindspring.com/~kb7mxu/images/slingshot.jpg>

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

 

[Mark Leuck]

"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1112893211.6ac7a5f56168ee7d4ee4e46efd8e0c1e@teranews...
>
> 50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
> they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]
> A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.

Thats odd, TDI VW's for some reason have a cult following in the US

 

[Mark Leuck]

Oh that one, I thought it was something different

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Leuck wrote:
> > Got any pictures of the MASA? I never heard of that one
>
> <URL: http://home.mindspring.com/~kb7mxu/images/slingshot.jpg>
>
> --
>
> Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
> World Domination?
> Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
> floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
>
>

 

[[email protected]]

MASA; http://home.mindspring.com/~kb7mxu/ under defunct trikes. Easy
Racer started in about '76, Brike was around.

Chris