Good stuff from Jan

Lance is a competitor and an almost perfectly successful one. If he
wins the Tour this time, he will be the unassailable champion Tour
rider probably of all time.

If you expect anyone to accomplish that as be "a real human being" then
I think that you're dreaming.

But who do you think will end up doing more good in the world? Jan and
his relaxed everyday nice guy attitude or Lance who will no doubt go on
to be a CEO and real power in the world after cycling is over?

There'll be no car racing and virtual Tour wins for him.

Bill C said:

David Ferguson said:

Bill C said:

>- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -

No but when even Lance's friends say that he is hard to deal with, and
will eventually get [censored] at you no matter what then it's pretty
simple to contrast that with all the people around Jan including some I
do know personally who say he's a great guy and pretty laid back.
Lance is a totally driven type A and will do whatever he has to, to
get what he wants. If your in the way too bad.
The new book we were talking about here the other day made that really
clear in the interview with the author. The people I know around
Telekom all have good things to say about Jan and would defend him to
the death.
Sometimes you don't have to know people personally when there is lots
of public evidence about their character.
Bill C

But "better human being"? I guess that whole LAF thing and kajillion
dollars doesn't count for much.

D

I didn't say that Lance doesn't have his good points, and he has a lot
including the ones you mentioned, but giving money to charity doesn't
make you a good person. Bill Gates, Nike, and Wal-Mart all give lots of
money to charity but also have ruthless reprehensible practices that
make people question them. Even Lance's friends say that he's
intolerant, judgemental, condescending to people he doesn't think are
as good as him, inflexible etc...I don't consider those to be good
traits. I don't think anybody should treat people that way.
I respect everything he's done, and agree he does a ton of good for
people, but when even his best friend is saying that he's miserable to
be around, and nasty to everyone when things aren't going exactly his
way then I don't consider that a ringing endorsement of his character.
Read through the interview. He demands absolute loyalty but will cut
even his friends loose as soon as they [censored] him off or are no longer
useful. That's reprehensible.
Bill C

I think all this has to be viewed in context. It's tough to have any
kind of public life without trying to put up boundaries--eap. for
someone as public as Lance.
I think the "miserable behavior" that has been cited is related to his
career primarily. In the annals of sports history and saints, with
people like Ty Cobb and Mike Tyson, or even Mickey Mantle and Kobe
Bryant, Lance don't look so bad.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

"Keith Alexander®" <keith@REMOVE!nootrope.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:01:37 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Reading that I see

*** No one here seems to know how to snip.

My head hurts.

Kurgan, that's a straight line for you...

That's what happens when you post from Google.

David Ferguson said:

Bill C said:

David Ferguson said:

On 21 Jun 2005 18:03:45 -0700, "Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>

>>
>> - - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -
> No but when even Lance's friends say that he is hard to deal with, and
>will eventually get [censored] at you no matter what then it's pretty
>simple to contrast that with all the people around Jan including some I
>do know personally who say he's a great guy and pretty laid back.
> Lance is a totally driven type A and will do whatever he has to, to
>get what he wants. If your in the way too bad.
> The new book we were talking about here the other day made that really
>clear in the interview with the author. The people I know around
>Telekom all have good things to say about Jan and would defend him to
>the death.
> Sometimes you don't have to know people personally when there is lots
>of public evidence about their character.
>Bill C

But "better human being"? I guess that whole LAF thing and kajillion
dollars doesn't count for much.

D

I didn't say that Lance doesn't have his good points, and he has a lot
including the ones you mentioned, but giving money to charity doesn't
make you a good person. Bill Gates, Nike, and Wal-Mart all give lots of
money to charity but also have ruthless reprehensible practices that
make people question them. Even Lance's friends say that he's
intolerant, judgemental, condescending to people he doesn't think are
as good as him, inflexible etc...I don't consider those to be good
traits. I don't think anybody should treat people that way.
I respect everything he's done, and agree he does a ton of good for
people, but when even his best friend is saying that he's miserable to
be around, and nasty to everyone when things aren't going exactly his
way then I don't consider that a ringing endorsement of his character.
Read through the interview. He demands absolute loyalty but will cut
even his friends loose as soon as they [censored] him off or are no longer
useful. That's reprehensible.
Bill C

I read the interview. I didn't gather that he cuts his friends loose
as soon as they are no longer useful.

And the discussion isn't whether or not he's a great friend but
whether he's a "better human being" or not. As a "human being", 100
years from now people won't remember Jan. But they will remember
Lance.

I guess it all comes down to one's definition of what makes a good
"human being".

D

Yep, I don't see where being remembered 100 years from now has
anything to do with being a good human being. I guess my ideas of what
constitute a good human being are much more Bhuddist/Daoist than yours.
I have this weird notion that respecting and treating everyone decently
until they force you to do otherwise is important. You can't be a good
human being without being a great friend. Good friends and great humans
are willing to sacrifice themselves for other people, and to put their
personal agendas and welfare aside for the sake of others.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

I can't remember who it was, but he said about jan, 'he's too nice.' I
also like that he has his weaknesses like chocolate or whatever. He's
one of us.He has his own weaknesses to overcome- it makes him more
empathetic.OTOH, don't underestimate a determined german.

I think Casey Stengle summed it up nicely. "Nice guy? Who cares
about nice guys? Just give me someone who can hit."

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

Bill C said:

David Ferguson said:

On 21 Jun 2005 18:03:45 -0700, "Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>>- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -
>
>No but when even Lance's friends say that he is hard to deal with, and
>will eventually get [censored] at you no matter what then it's pretty
>simple to contrast that with all the people around Jan including some I
>do know personally who say he's a great guy and pretty laid back.
>Lance is a totally driven type A and will do whatever he has to, to
>get what he wants. If your in the way too bad.
>The new book we were talking about here the other day made that really
>clear in the interview with the author. The people I know around
>Telekom all have good things to say about Jan and would defend him to
>the death.
>Sometimes you don't have to know people personally when there is lots
>of public evidence about their character.
>Bill C

But "better human being"? I guess that whole LAF thing and kajillion
dollars doesn't count for much.

D

I didn't say that Lance doesn't have his good points, and he has a lot
including the ones you mentioned, but giving money to charity doesn't
make you a good person. Bill Gates, Nike, and Wal-Mart all give lots of
money to charity but also have ruthless reprehensible practices that
make people question them. Even Lance's friends say that he's
intolerant, judgemental, condescending to people he doesn't think are
as good as him, inflexible etc...I don't consider those to be good
traits. I don't think anybody should treat people that way.
I respect everything he's done, and agree he does a ton of good for
people, but when even his best friend is saying that he's miserable to
be around, and nasty to everyone when things aren't going exactly his
way then I don't consider that a ringing endorsement of his character.
Read through the interview. He demands absolute loyalty but will cut
even his friends loose as soon as they [censored] him off or are no longer
useful. That's reprehensible.
Bill C

I think all this has to be viewed in context. It's tough to have any
kind of public life without trying to put up boundaries--eap. for
someone as public as Lance.
I think the "miserable behavior" that has been cited is related to his
career primarily. In the annals of sports history and saints, with
people like Ty Cobb and Mike Tyson, or even Mickey Mantle and Kobe
Bryant, Lance don't look so bad.

Steve

Cyclists in general. Yes, we hear about doping and various shenanigans
like Jan with his bad behavior. But you don't hear about the kind of
stuff that NBA or NFL guys do-hiring hitmen to kill their wives,
having kids with 25 different women, etc, gun crimes. Not like
they're all perfect, but I read euro media and you just don't hear
that kind of thing. Lance getting a divorce was a big deal for his
fans but that's because of the image that they were the perfect
couple. Frankly, though, I'm surprised more cyclists don't get
divorced. Most of them seem to live rather ordinary lives. PRobably
because they don't get PAID what NBA guys do.

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

I guess it all comes down to one's definition of what makes a good
"human being".

D

Yep, I don't see where being remembered 100 years from now has
anything to do with being a good human being. I guess my ideas of what
constitute a good human being are much more Bhuddist/Daoist than yours.
I have this weird notion that respecting and treating everyone decently
until they force you to do otherwise is important. You can't be a good
human being without being a great friend. Good friends and great humans
are willing to sacrifice themselves for other people, and to put their
personal agendas and welfare aside for the sake of others.
Bill C

Considering that I am a Daoist I doubt your ideas about what consitute
a good human being lean more that way than mine.

You can most certainly be a good human being without being a good
friend. Lance has sacraficed a lot more than Jan for others. From what
I have seen.

D

David Ferguson said:

Considering that I am a Daoist

*** "Dao?"

Tao?

Ever see Spinal Tap?

---
k e i t h a l e x a n d e r
http://www.nootrope.net
http://www.keithalexander.com/blog
http://www.modernamerican.com

- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:54:37 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

That's what happens when you post from Google.

*** Wrong.

---
k e i t h a l e x a n d e r
http://www.nootrope.net
http://www.keithalexander.com/blog
http://www.modernamerican.com

- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -

"Keith Alexander®" <keith@REMOVE!nootrope.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:54:37 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

That's what happens when you post from Google.

*** Wrong.

---

Does Goggle insert "***" before every line?

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

>
> - - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -
No but when even Lance's friends say that he is hard to deal with, and
will eventually get [censored] at you no matter what then it's pretty
simple to contrast that with all the people around Jan including some I
do know personally who say he's a great guy and pretty laid back.
Lance is a totally driven type A and will do whatever he has to, to
get what he wants. If your in the way too bad.
The new book we were talking about here the other day made that really
clear in the interview with the author. The people I know around
Telekom all have good things to say about Jan and would defend him to
the death.
Sometimes you don't have to know people personally when there is lots
of public evidence about their character.
Bill C

But "better human being"? I guess that whole LAF thing and kajillion
dollars doesn't count for much.

D

I didn't say that Lance doesn't have his good points, and he has a lot
including the ones you mentioned, but giving money to charity doesn't
make you a good person. Bill Gates, Nike, and Wal-Mart all give lots of
money to charity but also have ruthless reprehensible practices that
make people question them. Even Lance's friends say that he's
intolerant, judgemental, condescending to people he doesn't think are
as good as him, inflexible etc...I don't consider those to be good
traits. I don't think anybody should treat people that way.
I respect everything he's done, and agree he does a ton of good for
people, but when even his best friend is saying that he's miserable to
be around, and nasty to everyone when things aren't going exactly his
way then I don't consider that a ringing endorsement of his character.
Read through the interview. He demands absolute loyalty but will cut
even his friends loose as soon as they [censored] him off or are no longer
useful. That's reprehensible.
Bill C

My problem with Lance is that very frequently he states that he really
misses his kids and can't stand to be away from them, but he sees them a lot
less than he could if they were really the highest priority to him. He had
the resources to quit racing and become a full-time dad but he choose to
continue racing and spend lots of other free time away from Texas and the
kids. I don't have a problem with him choosing to make his kids a lower
priority but I do have a problem with him using them as what I see as a PR
tool.

Frank Drackman said:

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

On 21 Jun 2005 18:03:45 -0700, "Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> - - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -

*** ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How in the hell did THAT get in there?

---
k e i t h a l e x a n d e r
http://www.nootrope.net
http://www.keithalexander.com/blog
http://www.modernamerican.com

- - e n d t r a n s m i s s i o n - -

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:33:10 -0400, Keith Alexander®

keith@REMOVE!nootrope.net said:

*** "Dao?"

Tao?

Dao is a better representation of how it is pronounced in Guoyu and
Mandarin and is correct by at least two transliteration methods.
Wade-Giles is not a good method and has contributed to a lot of
off-the-wall 'English' pronunciations of Chinese names over the years.

Since the original form is still around in the form of Han Zi
(characters), I don't think 'Tao' can claim any sort of primacy over
'Dao'.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

pronounced in Guoyu and
Mandarin

Guoyu *and* Mandarin? What's the difference between the two?

Quoted message said:

Since the original form is still around in the form of Han Zi

Why do you write "Guoyu" with no spaces and "Han Zi" with spaces? And
why is "Zi" capitalized?

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

pronounced in Guoyu and Mandarin

Guoyu *and* Mandarin? What's the difference between the two?

Quoted message said:

Since the original form is still around in the form of Han Zi

Why do you write "Guoyu" with no spaces and "Han Zi" with spaces? And
why is "Zi" capitalized?

JT, the mrs. hacked your account.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:33:10 -0400, Keith Alexander®

keith@REMOVE!nootrope.net said:

David Ferguson said:

Considering that I am a Daoist

*** "Dao?"

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Tao?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Ever see Spinal Tap?

Yes.

Thank you,

David "St. Hubbins" Ferguson

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

pronounced in Guoyu and
Mandarin

Guoyu *and* Mandarin? What's the difference between the two?

Quoted message said:

Since the original form is still around in the form of Han Zi

Why do you write "Guoyu" with no spaces and "Han Zi" with spaces? And
why is "Zi" capitalized?

JT

Mandarin was the starting point for Guoyu, but they aren't the same.
If nothing else, true Mandarin is approaching being an archaic
language. Guoyu is still evolving and deliberately changed some word
usage at the getgo to separate itself from Mandarin and to be
'inclusive'. We had a couple of hours from an assistant foreign
minister thrown out of China with the Kuomintang and then thrown out
of Taiwan several years later where he listed a bunch of differences
and why (in his opinion) they made the changes. Then, again, he was a
two time loser...

While the usage varies, my source combines Guoyu as a single
bi-character word, while Han Zi is not - and the Zi is capitalized as
part of the name of an 'alphabet' and more or less equal with the Han,
which has to be capitalized. It wouldn't surprise me if Hanzi wasn't
used by some or most sources.

As these are all transliterations of the characters, it is all style
issues, not hard and fast rules. As mine come from the U.S.
government, I certainly wouldn't give it as the end all of the issue.
The same source listed Pinyin, which always struck me as the same,
pretty much, as Han Zi in usage.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

Mandarin was the starting point for Guoyu, but they aren't the same.
If nothing else, true Mandarin is approaching being an archaic
language. Guoyu is still evolving and deliberately changed some word
usage at the getgo to separate itself from Mandarin and to be
'inclusive'. We had a couple of hours from an assistant foreign
minister thrown out of China with the Kuomintang and then thrown out
of Taiwan several years later where he listed a bunch of differences
and why (in his opinion) they made the changes. Then, again, he was a
two time loser...

While the usage varies, my source combines Guoyu as a single
bi-character word, while Han Zi is not - and the Zi is capitalized as
part of the name of an 'alphabet'

What is your "source"? Is it the one guy you mention above?

Quoted message said:

and more or less equal with the Han,
which has to be capitalized. It wouldn't surprise me if Hanzi wasn't
used by some or most sources.

As these are all transliterations of the characters, it is all style
issues, not hard and fast rules.

No, there are rules for pinyin, perhaps not on capitalization but
certainly on spaces. Pinyin is now an ISO standard for the
romanization of the Chinese. Words are combined without spaces --
Hanzi, shagua, etc. Sometimes there are hyphens for compound words,
such as fu-zongtong. Many people are sloppy about pinyin though...

Quoted message said:

As mine come from the U.S.
government, I certainly wouldn't give it as the end all of the issue.
The same source listed Pinyin, which always struck me as the same,
pretty much, as Han Zi in usage.

No, you wrote a space in your Han Zi and nothing in Pinyin.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

No, you wrote a space in your Han Zi and nothing in Pinyin.

Which was my point. There didn't seem much point to the different
handling of the two - with the possible exception that zi is a common
diminutive ending that adds little to the primary character. There are
few characters like that and that might be the reason for separating
the zi when it carries actual purpose in the combination.

OTOH, I didn't make the style manual - I think some Harvard guys did
it on contract a long time ago - I just followed it. I left the
writing side of translation before pinyin was completely incorporated
on the military side. Nice thing about voice is that there aren't too
many style issues - just translation.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

No, you wrote a space in your Han Zi and nothing in Pinyin.

Which was my point.

?

Is your point that because you or whoever you learned from is sloppy
with pinyin that that's acceptable or somehow correct. That's like me
spelling doctor as doktor and someone saying that's wrong. Then I
say, "Well some people spell it like that." They ask "Who?" And I
say, "Well I do. That's at least one."

Quoted message said:

There didn't seem much point to the different
handling of the two - with the possible exception that zi is a common
diminutive ending that adds little to the primary character.

No, in Hanzi the zi is essential to the meaning.

Quoted message said:

There are
few characters like that and that might be the reason for separating
the zi when it carries actual purpose in the combination.

In other cases, yes. In this case, no. Hanzi the zi is essential to
the meaning. And in pinyin is is written with no space. Anything else
is an error.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, I didn't make the style manual - I think some Harvard guys did
it on contract a long time ago - I just followed it.

You're following a flawed or outdated document.

JT

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