Goodbye

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell. I've got the same kind of feeling that you get when you're
finishing up a tedious task before walking out the door on a long
vacation. I'm psyched. For this, I can only thank JT for doing his
part to bring this long, glorious waste of time to an end.

Take the rest of the spring off, enjoy your family, and drop back in
towards the middle of the summer. Bicycle-oriented and technical
content is rare enough that I'd hate to lose a source of it.

OT now; how do some posters manage to post such large volumes of
material? I've wondered on occasion if real people spontaneously
generate the quantity posted under a given name, or if there's just
large files sitting around on some number of hard disks, out of which
random paragraphs are posted. (It's often hard to tell by reading the
posts, too.)

Pat

Email address works as is.

Mark Hickey said:

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

At some point you have to devote your life to yourself and your family.

Quoted message said:

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell. I've got the same kind of feeling that you get when you're
finishing up a tedious task before walking out the door on a long
vacation. I'm psyched. For this, I can only thank JT for doing his
part to bring this long, glorious waste of time to an end.

Happy trails,

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

May the wind always be at you're back.
Like that's really gonna happen.
Have a good life, Mark.
Bill Baka

Patrick Lamb said:

OT now; how do some posters manage to post such large volumes of
material? I've wondered on occasion if real people spontaneously
generate the quantity posted under a given name, or if there's just
large files sitting around on some number of hard disks, out of which
random paragraphs are posted. (It's often hard to tell by reading the
posts, too.)

I wonder, too. I keep my posts really short usually (much to some people's
chagrin, apparently!); who has the time to write /volumes/ on Usenet each
and every day?!?

The kicker is that those folks probably also frequent blogs and mailing
lists, which are also time consuming.

I need to get out and /ride/, man.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, Bill, please! Today I was listening to Mark Davis calling Pat
Tillman's family "despicable" because they disagree with Pres. Bush.
He was calling for radio stations and television stations not to give
them any air time because of their political views. Then, I turned
to another station and there was Bill O'Reilly claiming that Rosie
O'Donnell and anyone who agreed with her did not deserve a voice on
the airways!
And you sit there and write that "the Left" is doing this! There is
plenty hypocrisy to go around, Bill. You've just proved it!

I was referring to mainstream discourse; never heard of Mark Davis.

Check your radio, then. Mark Davis is a national syndicated talk show host.
He is mainstream.

(And

Quoted message said:

the last time I heard Bill O'Reilly talk about Rosie he was /defending/
her right to free (even if disgraceful) speech.)

Well, then, you didn't listen today, didja?

Quoted message said:

Why on earth would you listen to people you dislike, anyway?

Are you saying that talk shows are only for people who agree with everything
the host is saying? BTW: I didn't say I disliked Bill O'Reilly OR Mark
Davis. I listen to them, don't I?

Quoted message said:

On a smaller scale, just read Mark's thread on Floyd to see the latest
.rec example.

I would appreciate it if you would just get off of your "the Left" rants.
Recognize that both sides have plenty of this stuff going on. Check out the
latest Limbaugh stuff with his "Halfrican" slurs and Obama songs....

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS: You not only deleted the context of the above (Tomlinson's comment
that he'd refrain from attacking Mark as long as Mark stayed out of
political threads -- hence my question what are "they" afraid of), you
also deleted ALL attributions.

FWIW

It's not about this guy Tomlinson, whoever he is. It's about you, Bill. YOUR
hypocrisy.

FWIS

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

PS: You not only deleted the context of the above (Tomlinson's
comment that he'd refrain from attacking Mark as long as Mark stayed
out of political threads -- hence my question what are "they" afraid
of), you also deleted ALL attributions.

FWIW

It's not about this guy Tomlinson, whoever he is. It's about you,
Bill. YOUR hypocrisy.

FWIS

You just deleted the context and attribution(s) /again/. (And apparently
don't understand the meaning of hypocrisy, either.)

Let's make this easy, Pat.

PLONK

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's like Harry Reid. Cheney criticizes his /positions/ without a single

personal attack, and Reid says he won't engage in name-calling with an
"attack dog" with a 9% approval rating (all ad hominem and zero issue).

It's just too classic.

Like Cheney using swear words to respond to his critics?

that's too classic, too. You see, Bill, you like to only give one side of
the story and make the other side look bad by omission. That won't fly. It
just makes you look bad.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

still me said:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:40:23 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Careful, you may break your arm trying to pat yourself on the back.
Backoff, you're not the hot [censored] you think you are, nor as informed
you would like to us to think you are.

"Promoting Torture". I'd like to know when Mark /promoted/ torture. It's
exactly like the helm*t threads, where the AHZs accuse pro-lidders of being
for MHLs even though they've expressly stated opposition to them.

I guess since Floglinson hasn't condemned that 12-year-old Taliban /child/
beheading a helpless hostage on camera, that means he's PRO CHOPPING OFF
HEADS. It's just ridiculous.

I hope this is an intentional comedy act just for this thread.
Otherwise you two guys are demonstrating exactly what the OP
complained about.

I don't think its a comedy act, I think they're serious and I think they
are very both sad individuals. But that's what killfiles are for.

David L. Johnson said:

Bill Sornson said:

David L. Johnson said:

Bill Sornson wrote:

>> I hope you'll reconsider at some point. I don't agree with your
>> politics, but I think you've been a voice of reason on matters of
>> bicycle technology, which this list is purportedly about. The reign
>> of the yippy dogs seems once step closer with your departure.

Please watch your attributions; I did not write the above.

Nor did I indicate such. Notice the layers of quotes.

David, this ain't the first time he has made unwarrented complaints about
attributions. Bill seems to have trouble with either

a) the usenet quoting convention; or

b) numbers larger than 2.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell. I've got the same kind of feeling that you get when you're
finishing up a tedious task before walking out the door on a long
vacation. I'm psyched. For this, I can only thank JT for doing his
part to bring this long, glorious waste of time to an end.

Happy trails,

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark,

I was reading the thread in rbm and it quickly degenerated into
political attacks. I don't blame you for leaving, but you will be
missed. I always regarded you as an authority on the industry and your
remarks about running a shop are priceless.

I used to contribute more to the group also, but stopped when it
became so political. I prefer to keep those views to myself since
there seems to be so much polarization going on in the country in
recent years.

Larry

Bill Sornson said:

I hope Mark will reconsider because SHUTTING OUT OPPOSING VOICES is an
obvious tactic of a certain political movement nowadays

Not just nowadays. It's been an obvious tactic of the right since at
least 9/11. But fortunately, as a strong majority of Americans have
come to recognize the corruption of the Bush administration and the
horror of sending thousands of American troops to their death or
maiming in an illegal, pointless war sold to the American public
through lies that were amplified through the megaphone of "liberal"
media sources such as the New York Times, well, maybe, to some degree,
the mainstream media is letting some of the truth seep out. The truth
hurts, but that doesn't mean that the media have to publish
Administration lies to give it balance. Not anymore. We've had 6+
years of almost nothing but cheerleading out of the media; now it's
time for the truth.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:00:07 GMT, still me <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I hope this is an intentional comedy act just for this thread.
Otherwise you two guys are demonstrating exactly what the OP
complained about.

The OP complained about non-stop back-and-forth, and I'm surely as
guilty of that as anyone.

But here's the thing. I'm actually *right* in this exchange.
Waterboarding is torture. Hickey supports waterboarding of prisoners
in the US.

And Sorni is *wrong* in saying that because I don't condemn something
explicity I'm in favor of it. Or that I'm using that sort of
rhetorical trick on Hickey.

That's the difference.

So while there may not be differences in behaviour of the two sides
in this group, there are differences in content.

We can each decide which differences matter.

Quoted message said:

If its for real, I suggest you take the advice
of those here with cool
heads and "let it go".

I doubt I will let it go -- each time someone posts something
inaccurate about me or very wrong about politics, I'll respond.
--
JT
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:08:46 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It's like Harry Reid. Cheney criticizes his /positions/ without a single
personal attack,

LOL you're totally deluded. What are your sources of information?
--
JT
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:11:14 +0200, Tosspot <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I think they're serious and I think they
are very both sad individuals.

If you're talking about me you're quite mistaken.

--
JT
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Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Antti Salonen said:

In rec.bicycles.misc David L. Johnson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hell, we all know that usenet is dead anyway, and we are just
sifting through the ashes. Between the "forums" diverting a lot of
more specialized discussions and energy, and "angry young men"
determined to turn any topic into their particular soapbox, the
signal/noise level is not looking good.

Indeed. The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated. I
guess it worked better 10 to 15 years ago when the standard of
Internet users was higher, but now most newsgroups are playgrounds of
small number of anti-social idiots who successfully drive everybody
else to moderated web forums and mailing lists.

I don't want to wear rose colored glasses- Usenet has always had
this.

Yup.

Quoted message said:

It's always been unpleasant. It does seem that the s/n ratio has
dropped in many newsgroups- r.b.racing for example having imploded years
ago under the weight of idiocy. But that said, there is much gold among
the dross and it's worth sifting for.

And people do have killfiles. Use them.

DI said:

I bet he doesn't get his news from the New York Times, CBS, or CNN, if he
does he's a fool.

Where do you get your news?

Considering how weak those those sources were in the run-up to the
Iraq war, I'd hope it's even broader than that but for the
time-challenged those wouldn't be the worse possiblities. Those are
among the best the US has in terms of scope and power in broad
investigative reporting, but places like Reuters and the BBC are
important too.

And even left-wing (and sometimes right wing) blogs that pull out
original documents. www.crooksandliars.com and talkingpointsmemo.com
is awesome not so much for the opinion (which I almost always agree
with) but for the links to documents from government officials
themselves, or statements by the officials themselves.

Drudge can be good in the same way, but with the blogs you have to
focus on what are facts and what are opinions.

Googlenews is a good first stop and gets in lots of non-US reporting
also.

--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

DI said:

I bet he doesn't get his news from the New York Times, CBS, or CNN, if he
does he's a fool.

Where do you get your news?

I think this thread would be a good one for people to learn to filter
if they want to limit their reading to on-topic material.

To Di: here's a good example of news getting for me. I have a
homepage that I use for webbrowsing, at http://www.jt10000.com/links/
I was looking through the news via Drudge http://www.drudgereport.com/
and followed a couple of links, including to
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/washington/26gitmo.html?ei=5065&en=461fb6682e1b795b&ex=1178164800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

Where do you get your news?
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Bill Sornson said:

Mike Kruger said:

Bill Sornson said:

Antti Salonen wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The Usenet is dying simply because it isn't moderated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm confused about something. Rec.Bicycles.Offroad completely DIED
because it was moderated -- I thought to keep Vandedrivel {tm} out?
Weirdly enough, spam got thru fairly regularly, but on-topic posts
took forever to show up...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How is it he (MV) doesn't post in these two rec groups? Is their
some "master filter" that blocks his stuff?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'll go look for an ALT cycling group besides AM-B...

Quoted message said:

Well, there's alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent/topics?hl=en

Good one!

Quoted message said:

At this moment, the link above shows the newest thread as "Dear
Diary: I didn't poo in my pants today."

LOL (literally)

Quoted message said:

The fourth thread on the list begins with "I joined this group a
couple of weeks ago because I am interested in
recumbent bicycles. All I have seen so far is tons of drivel from an
idiot named" [E.D. -- not going to name him]

Guess I'll pass on that one.

Seriously, what keeps Vandespammer out of here? He cross-posts to a whole
bunch of newsgroups; why not these?

Shhh! No really... Shhh!

Don't tempt fate Bill.
I don't know if such a filter exists, or what it could be, and I don't
care.

Just let it lie... ;-)

bookieb

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

If its for real, I suggest you take the advice
of those here with cool
heads and "let it go".

I doubt I will let it go -- each time someone posts something
inaccurate about me or very wrong about politics, I'll respond.

[Please note that below is general advice to everyone, not specific
advice to you and I am not supporting any particular view on anything
in this post].

I understand your point. I used to get highly cranked at some of the
nonsense I'd see from the "other side". I see some serious issues in
the USA: I see some clever people taking advantage of the masses, I
see outright lies and careful-half statements by politicians, I see
some real ignorance of true facts. I see the very fabric and basis of
our country being threatened by those who exploit it for their own
benefit.

I _could_ get aggravated, but I don't anymore. Why? Because it doesn't
change anything, and it just gets you aggravated and wastes your time.
The ol' " teach a pig to sing" issue. If I want to make a difference
in that arena, I need a different forum.

I suggest that you "correct and move on". If you bring correct
information to someone and they say "Oh, I didn't know that", then
you've enlightened someone. If they immediately retreat to the fixed
position of the "other side" and spout what you "know" to be
incorrect, you know where it's going. Right or wrong, you won't change
their mind and they won't change yours. It's the USEnet equivalent of
a diode to ground - a one way ticket for electrons to head to nowhere.

Mark Hickey said:

I had an epiphany. Last night, I was getting a painful deep massage
to help with the effects of my bike accident in 2003. The nice young
woman was leaning heavily toward me to better drive the point of her
elbow into the very sore muscles of my neck. I thought "I'm paying
her to hurt me this much - I don't really have to put up with the
pain". Of course, I didn't stop her because I benefit from the
process, however painful.

Which brings me to the current state of the rec.bicycles newsgroups.
I've been frequenting them for over 15 years, and (particularly in the
early years) have learned much, and tried to share what I know through
those years. But it struck me as I was enduring the pain of that
massage that participation in the newsgroups gets more painful by the
year, but no longer holds any particular benefit for me. Technical
discussions break down into pointless bluster as often as not (ala
"jim beam"😉 and discussions about social issues have long since ceased
to hold any promise of civil discourse.

And it only gets more and more shrill as time goes by.

Character assassination has become the chief tool for those who prefer
to avoid facts that run contrary to their world view, and I've
increasingly been the target of these attacks.

It strikes me that most of the "high-content contributors" have also
left these newsgroups over the years, and it's easy to see why. I
suspect that the content to noise ratio is only going to get worse as
time goes by.

JT's pernicious accusations are just the latest in a long series, but
they're the ones that opened my eyes to the reality that this is no
longer any fun, and there are many better ways I can spend my time. I
have a very full life, a wonderful family (including four new
granddaughters). I can ride my bike more.

So, it's with absolute joy and anticipation that I bid you all a fond
farewell. I've got the same kind of feeling that you get when you're
finishing up a tedious task before walking out the door on a long
vacation. I'm psyched. For this, I can only thank JT for doing his
part to bring this long, glorious waste of time to an end.

Happy trails,

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycleshttp://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

I know how you feel Mark and I have taken a 'vacation' from these
silly NGs as well. Hopefully yours will be a vacation, not permanent
and you'll be back bcause you DO have something worthwhile to offer.
But if you don't come back certainly understand.