GP 4000 S(hit)...

[swampy1970]

Based on my experience with the GP4000, 4000S, Supersonic and 4000S2 is that even though they all handle well and perform great, I'd only class the Supersonic as a race tire - ie, one reserved only for race use. In the last 5 years I've had a very minimal amount of punctures (probably less than 10, most of which were on a Supersonic within a 6 month period) and have yet to suffer a sidewall cut that that enough to cause a flat tire. I've scuffed sidewalls on the edge of curbs and potholes. Because of this I tend to think of the 4000S as a fantastic multipurpose tire, even for gravel roads and definitely not the drama queen that the Vitorria open tubulars are. I hate those tires with a passion. Lol. I try them every few years just to use up my glue and patches before the puncture repair kit passes the sell by date...

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

Because of this I tend to think of the 4000S as a fantastic multipurpose tire, even for gravel roads and definitely not the drama queen that the Vitorria open tubulars are. I hate those tires with a passion. Lol. I try them every few years just to use up my glue and patches before the puncture repair kit passes the sell by date...

Hear, hear. Well, I can't say anything about Vittoria open tubulars. Everybody who's used them, though, says the ride and handling are superb. For years, though, the GP 4000 has been my go-to tire. They've held up to my every indiscretion except when I whacked a curb while trying to adjust a brake and clip in at the same time. I had it coming. And they're the only tire that consistently gives me about 3000 miles and doesn't ride like a Deere.

Frankly, I can't badmouth any tire I've used over the last eight years or so. You get what you pay for, so the Serfas SECAs were a little rough and slow, but I still managed to get a couple thousand mostly enjoyable miles out of them. Pretty much what I expected from a $40 tire, $30 on sale.

This year I'm trying Bontrager road tires. OK, I work for a Trek dealer, so I have an incentive. But somebody in the shop has to have some some direct experience, so . . . The R3s that came on my Madone were decent for 2000 miles, and I've got AW3s in 25mm on for the winter--so far, excellent. Nice ride and traction, and no flats or cuts. And there's a pair of new TLR R3s in the bench waiting for spring.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Quote by OBC:
"This year I'm trying Bontrager road tires. OK, I work for a Trek dealer..."

What's your opinion of Bontrager Hardcase tires. So far, I find them to be dead, stiff, a little slippery (in the dry) and...well, hard. Some of that may be the winter temperature and frozen roads. Some of it may be the Bontrager wheels. Dropped the pressure and still no love. I'll ride them through the winter and swap on some Pro4's in a couple months.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by AyeYo
Seems like endless complaints about sidwall damage with these tires. I don't understand why their hardcore fans on this forum like them so much.

I can't imagine Conti is going to honor a warranty claim on a worn tire when there's no way to prove the mileage, nor do they make any mileage/life guarantees.

EXACTLY! I can't understand the love for Conti's either, this sidewall thing isn't just limited to the 4000 line either, it affects their entire line of road tires except for the Gatorskin Hardshell. It's like people get mesmerized by bicycle magazines and marketing geniuses that push this sort of stuff and it goes beyond Continental tires. Warranty? The best warranty is to learn your lesson and go with a different brand that cost less, lasts longer, and handles just as well. And always buy stuff on end of the year closeout sales, you can easily find $50 to $65 tires for half of that retail cost and even less than half the cost.

 

[swampy1970]

How some folks go through sideways on these is beyond me, especially on regular 19 or 20 mm rims. The rubber more than overlaps the edges. Even with 23mm tires on the 25mm tire Flo30 rims where the very outside edge of the tire lines up perfectly with the brake surface, I've hit some monster potholes at speed that's been enough to rotate properly torqued set of bars and the tires have held up fine and dandy. I guess it's like Darwinism, the idiots will always find a way to try and kill themselves... I bet these folks that kill the sidewalls on the 4000S's are the same folks that managed to snap fork steerer tubes, Dura Ace STI cables and trash carbon frames on a semi regular basis...

 

[cheetahmk7]

And as for mileage how much do people want? I reckon I got well over 10,000 km out of my last ones. It makes me think Conti should trade some of that longevity for more grip.

 

[swampy1970]

And as for mileage how much do people want? I reckon I got well over 10,000 km out of my last ones. It makes me think Conti should trade some of that longevity for more grip.

More grip? Im dropping cars on descents with the current compound, I'd need "Forearms of the Gods" mid corner if they put softer rubber on there. I think the old S compound was Conti's moto GP qualifying rubber. Maybe a Conti 4000S2-R, with about 1,000 km of real world use - a balls to the wall crit and descending tire. That'd be like running the Hoosier R compound car tires in SCCA races - DOT approved for highway use but you'd get less than 500 miles if driven on the highway. Stickier than chewing gum on your shoes on a hot summer day. I hear the top of the line Specialized tire is a race only, very soft tire compound. I've noticed the S2 runs a little narrower than the previous S. I might go for a 25 on the back with the Flo30's.

 

[cheetahmk7]

More grip? Im dropping cars on descents with the current compound, I'd need "Forearms of the Gods" mid corner if they put softer rubber on there. I think the old S compound was Conti's moto GP qualifying rubber. Maybe a Conti 4000S2-R, with about 1,000 km of real world use - a balls to the wall crit and descending tire. That'd be like running the Hoosier R compound car tires in SCCA races - DOT approved for highway use but you'd get less than 500 miles if driven on the highway. Stickier than chewing gum on your shoes on a hot summer day. I hear the top of the line Specialized tire is a race only, very soft tire compound. I've noticed the S2 runs a little narrower than the previous S. I might go for a 25 on the back with the Flo30's.

I was thinking along the lines of R-spec too. Having too much grip is like having too high a FTP. I had 25's on the rear of my Flo30's. I'm back to using a 23 which I had handy.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by cheetahmk7
And as for mileage how much do people want? I reckon I got well over 10,000 km out of my last ones. It makes me think Conti should trade some of that longevity for more grip.

I'm calling this BS unless you weigh less than 100 pounds, or you're riding on a Velo track. That's well over 6,000 US miles, the only tires that can do that is touring tires like the ones from Schwalbe called the Marathons, or like the Specialized Armadillos, etc.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

How some folks go through sideways on these is beyond me, especially on regular 19 or 20 mm rims. The rubber more than overlaps the edges. Even with 23mm tires on the 25mm tire Flo30 rims where the very outside edge of the tire lines up perfectly with the brake surface, I've hit some monster potholes at speed that's been enough to rotate properly torqued set of bars and the tires have held up fine and dandy.

I guess it's like Darwinism, the idiots will always find a way to try and kill themselves... I bet these folks that kill the sidewalls on the 4000S's are the same folks that managed to snap fork steerer tubes, Dura Ace STI cables and trash carbon frames on a semi regular basis...

Hate to sidestep here a bit, but do you own the Flo30 rims? if so, how long have you had them and what do you think of them?

 

[swampy1970]

 Hate to sidestep here a bit, but do you own the Flo30 rims?  if so, how long have you had them and what do you think of them?

No, I just put that I own them up there as a conversation piece and ride Mavic MA40's. Yeah, I do own a set of wheels with those rims. I don't have the prebuilt wheels from FLO as I wanted a 32 spoke drilling for my existing PowerTap rear hub. The front is 28 spoke, 2x, on a Dura Ace 9000 hub. Spokes are DT aerolite with shiny red aluminum nipples to attract magpies and match my bike. Mmmmm nipples They're a great rim from what I've seen so far. They're remarkable at being unremarkable - great braking, able to take my fat ass pounding them in potholes, great in strong crosswinds and don't gather gallons of water. The extra width does change the handling of the bike for the better and 25mm isn't so wide to cause issues with setting up the brake calipers (Dura Ace 7900). So far they do everything well. I've only got about a 1,000 miles on them so it's still early days but so far they're great. My only issue is that it's a bit of a pain getting tires on. Tighter than any rim I've had in the past but that may be down to running a rim tape that extends all the way across the rim bed and upto the inside of the wall of the rim. The next time I get the tire off I'll swap the 21mm tape for 19mm. The finish on the rim seems to hold dust/dirt more than rims I've had from velocity or mavic. I'm not too fussed about the cosmetic side of this but combined with the tight tire fitment I've noticed that when overly dusty it does chew up my tire levers a bit when getting the tires on and off at the point where the lever fulcrums on the rim wall.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by swampy1970


No, I just put that I own them up there as a conversation piece and ride Mavic MA40's.

Yeah, I do own a set of wheels with those rims. I don't have the prebuilt wheels from FLO as I wanted a 32 spoke drilling for my existing PowerTap rear hub. The front is 28 spoke, 2x, on a Dura Ace 9000 hub. Spokes are DT aerolite with shiny red aluminum nipples to attract magpies and match my bike.

Mmmmm nipples

They're a great rim from what I've seen so far.

They're remarkable at being unremarkable - great braking, able to take my fat ass pounding them in potholes, great in strong crosswinds and don't gather gallons of water. The extra width does change the handling of the bike for the better and 25mm isn't so wide to cause issues with setting up the brake calipers (Dura Ace 7900).

So far they do everything well. I've only got about a 1,000 miles on them so it's still early days but so far they're great.

My only issue is that it's a bit of a pain getting tires on. Tighter than any rim I've had in the past but that may be down to running a rim tape that extends all the way across the rim bed and upto the inside of the wall of the rim. The next time I get the tire off I'll swap the 21mm tape for 19mm. The finish on the rim seems to hold dust/dirt more than rims I've had from velocity or mavic. I'm not too fussed about the cosmetic side of this but combined with the tight tire fitment I've noticed that when overly dusty it does chew up my tire levers a bit when getting the tires on and off at the point where the lever fulcrums on the rim wall.

Interesting, thanks.

Tire levers you may want to try Soma steel core levers, those things work great.

Also in regards to tight fitting tires, that's not a bad thing like most people think, a tight fitting tire means that if by chance you have a blowout there will be less of a chance of that tire coming off the rim and you sliding along on bare aluminum chewing up your rim and your butt at the same time.

The finish thing is interesting comment, maybe you should send Flo a comment in regards to that and maybe, just maybe they'll make a minor change to improve the finish...or maybe that finish makes for better braking?

How do you like the hubs? is this a off the shelf type of wheel? in other words if the hub went bad could a person rebuild the wheel with a different hub just using parts from an LBS?

How much was the custom Flo wheel set? I know that this year they now make the regular Flo 30 and a clydesdale Flo 30, even though I only weigh 165 I'm sort of a person that leans towards things being heavy duty so I would probably get the clydesdale model so I know it would hold up to rough roads without any problems, and for just a 28 gram penalty per wheel it's a small amount weight for good insurance.

 

[cheetahmk7]

Quote:Originally Posted by Froze .
I'm calling this BS unless you weigh less than 100 pounds, or you're riding on a Velo track. That's well over 6,000 US miles, the only tires that can do that is touring tires like the ones from Schwalbe called the Marathons, or like the Specialized Armadillos, etc.


Miles are international!
I have only had one set of 25mm GP400S tires. Purchased Monday, 22 April 2013. The first tire died prematurely about a year back after having the sidewall fail on a gravel road. The second tyre died on the 26th of December 2015 also from sidewall damage. It still had heaps of tread left on it. All my rides have been logged on Strava and everything apart from indoor trainer rides and the very occasional MTB ride used the same wheelset and tyre. The roads are a mix of country and gravel roads with zero hotmix.

 

[cheetahmk7]

I love my FLO30 wheels but they are far too hard to get the tyres on and off and I would recommend against purchasing them for this reason alone. For the first time in over 20 years I now have to carry a set of tyre levers around with me. I also have to let all the air out of the tube in order to get the tyre on. This has resulted in me getting two flats from pinching the tube under the tyre bead which is a fault mode I have never experienced before. I'm dreading the cold winter's day when I get a flat and can't replace the tyre because my hands are too cold and tired.

 

[swampy1970]

I find that 3 tire levers to get the tire off and working the tire on in small increments and sliding the tire lever under the remaining bead that's yet to be seated when putting the tire on is the way to go. I change my tire when using my trainer because the knurled steel roller chews up conti tires in about a month and creates a little like of tiny rubber shavings - so during winter it's tire swap time in Friday and Sunday nights.

 

[swampy1970]

Interesting, thanks. Tire levers you may want to try Soma steel core levers, those things work great.   Also in regards to tight fitting tires, that's not a bad thing like most people think, a tight fitting tire means that if by chance you have a blowout there will be less of a chance of that tire coming off the rim and you sliding along on bare aluminum chewing up your rim and your butt at the same time.  The finish thing is interesting comment, maybe you should send Flo a comment in regards to that and maybe, just maybe they'll make a minor change to improve the finish...or maybe that finish makes for better braking? How do you like the hubs?  is this a off the shelf type of wheel?  in other words if the hub went bad could a person rebuild the wheel with a different hub just using parts from an LBS? How much was the custom Flo wheel set?  I know that this year they now make the regular Flo 30 and a clydesdale Flo 30, even though I only weigh 165 I'm sort of a person that leans towards things being heavy duty so I would probably get the clydesdale model so I know it would hold up to rough roads without any problems, and for just a 28 gram penalty per wheel it's a small amount weight for good insurance.

These were wheels that I bought the bits for and hand built for me. I already had the power measuring PowerTap hub in the rear wheel I was replacing and since it cost more than a grand when I bought it 6 years ago I wanted to reuse it. Ever since the 7400 Dura Ace groupset I've had a soft spot for Dura Ace hubs, so going with one of those for the front was an easy decision. The rims are actually a really good price. As far as braking goes, they're ace. The usual "new rim" cleanse of suitable degreaser was done and life was good. Machined braking surface and Dura Ace calipers on a beefy Cannondale front fork = fantastic braking. 28 spokes in the front was probably overkill but some of the roads I ride are not the best and some of the rides I like most are in the mountains and sometimes parts of those rides are in the dark. These ain't my race wheels - but they definitely ain't slowing me down any even with the 28 and 32 spoke count.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by swampy1970


These were wheels that I bought the bits for and hand built for me. I already had the power measuring PowerTap hub in the rear wheel I was replacing and since it cost more than a grand when I bought it 6 years ago I wanted to reuse it. Ever since the 7400 Dura Ace groupset I've had a soft spot for Dura Ace hubs, so going with one of those for the front was an easy decision.

So you sent your hubs to Flo and they built them using your hubs?

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

I find that 3 tire levers to get the tire off and working the tire on in small increments and sliding the tire lever under the remaining bead that's yet to be seated when putting the tire on is the way to go. I change my tire when using my trainer because the knurled steel roller chews up conti tires in about a month and creates a little like of tiny rubber shavings - so during winter it's tire swap time in Friday and Sunday nights.

Have you tried 1 lever and a QuikStik? BUT, I don't have your rims so maybe that won't work like it does with mine. QuikStik is fast on easy tires, you don't even need a tire iron. This video shows how it works but mountain bike tires are easier than road tires; see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L8bYUjLOvQ
There was a You Tube video done by my LBS that uses a QuikStik to remove a tire, replace a tube, install the tire, and air up in under 2 minutes but I can't find it.

 

[Froze]

Originally Posted by cheetahmk7

Miles are international!

I have only had one set of 25mm GP400S tires. Purchased Monday, 22 April 2013. The first tire died prematurely about a year back after having the sidewall fail on a gravel road. The second tyre died on the 26th of December 2015 also from sidewall damage. It still had heaps of tread left on it. All my rides have been logged on Strava and everything apart from indoor trainer rides and the very occasional MTB ride used the same wheelset and tyre. The roads are a mix of country and gravel roads with zero hotmix. https://www.strava.com/athletes/170768

Edit: I weigh 70kg (155 lbs)

Huh? you said you got well over 10,000 KM, km in my book stands for kilometers which if you convert 10,000 kilometers to miles it equals 6,213 miles, (please correct me if I'm wrong on the figures), and you said you went well over that! Not only is that highly unbelievable but now your saying you did those miles on country (probably meaning chip and seal roads) and gravel mix? that wears out tires even faster. I even went online to see what others have gotten on those tires and they are all lower to about an average of 3500 to 4000 miles...those that held up that long, most failed due to sidewall issues. Again the toughest touring tires can last that long, but not a training tire.

 

[cheetahmk7]

Originally Posted by Froze
Huh? you said you got well over 10,000 KM, km in my book stands for kilometers which if you convert 10,000 kilometers to miles it equals 6,213 miles, (please correct me if I'm wrong on the figures), and you said you went well over that! Not only is that highly unbelievable but now your saying you did those miles on country (probably meaning chip and seal roads) and gravel mix? that wears out tires even faster. I even went online to see what others have gotten on those tires and they are all lower to about an average of 3500 to 4000 miles...those that held up that long, most failed due to sidewall issues. Again the toughest touring tires can last that long, but not a training tire.

Yes 90% chip and seal and 10% gravel as a guess. They just seem to wear really slowly for some reason. I suspect most wear happens when accelerating away from intersections and whilst cornering and those conditions almost never happen in my location.