Great Guns for Cycling!



Kel-Tec P-3AT

The Kel-Tec P-3AT in .380 Auto has been metioned on this thread more than once. Information on this product can be found at www.kel-tec-cnc.com. I may be mistaken, but I believe the P-3AT is the most slim .380 Auto made. Kel-Tec themselves claim that the "KEL-TEC P-3AT is the lightest .380 Auto pistol ever made." The P-3AT is available in three finishes: Blued, Parkerized, and Hard Chrome. The 6+1 capacity P-3AT currently has a MSR price of $324 - $382 and would make an excellent ultra-lightweight choice for cycling.
 
I have already described the ideal solution in another thread. You must attach recoilless shotguns to your helmet. They could be actuated by a bite trigger.

I proposed a system in which the weapon would be released from the helmet at the instant of firing. Such a gun would be the essence of simplicity and could even be muzzleloading, because you have to retrieve and reattach the barrel in addition to reloading. Thus, a large number of barrels could be worn at once. The entire equipment could weigh less than 30lbs.
 
jeepguy32 said:
Thanks for your suggestion Matt888. I did look into some statistical research on firearm related deaths regarding children in America. The average is 30 per year. More children in American die from falling into a bucket of water than from accidental discharge of a firearm. To wit: The following comes from a transcript of testimony from John R. Lott, Jr. a John M. Olin Law and Economics Fellow, School of Law, University of Chicago:
Indeed, five times as many children under 5 die from fires that they start with cigarette lighters (150 versus 30) and more die from drowning in water buckets around the home (40). For children under 15, almost 3,000 died in motor-vehicle crashes, 950 drowned and more than 1,000 died from residential fires. Hundreds more children die in bicycle accidents each year than die from all types of firearm accidents.
Even though the research suggests that bicycle accidents kill hundreds of children each year, I don't think we should ban bicycles.



smile.gif
What you are basicly saying is that firearms related deaths are no problem as long as they do not exceed the number of deaths from other causes?

Every time guns are discussed, this kind of ridiculous reasoning comes up...
What you forget is:
Guns are made to kill. Water buckets are not. Neither are cigarette lighters or bicycles.
If that difference is not obvious to everyone, there is help to get from people in shiny white coats.
icon6.gif
 
Kelderek said:
Guns are made to kill. Water buckets are not.
What's the difference if both have death as the end result? And water buckets kill more chidren than firearms?

Ban water buckets. Ban them now! Do it "for the children"!

Firearms are made for more than just killing. I am a competetive target shooter in olympic style rifle and pistol discplines. I also hunt with firearms. I compete in service rifle competitions. I will not give up my right to defend myself due to whiney people too afraid to defend their own lives.

Guns are just another tool and they may be used to defend life and liberty if need be. If that results in the death of a criminal...oh well. Better him than me.
 
Kelderek said:
What you are basicly saying is that firearms related deaths are no problem as long as they do not exceed the number of deaths from other causes?

Every time guns are discussed, this kind of ridiculous reasoning comes up...
What you forget is:
Guns are made to kill. Water buckets are not. Neither are cigarette lighters or bicycles.
If that difference is not obvious to everyone, there is help to get from people in shiny white coats.
icon6.gif
No further comment. Please see post 1, paragraph 2 of this thread. I hope you have a nice day!

:)

“An armed society is a polite society.” - Robert A. Heinlein​
 
i must say hats off to you and promoting CC. i also hold a license but currently live in illinois where the 2nd amedment apperinetly doesn't mean anything. so i can't carry a loaded firearm the law here is i can carry one but the mag or ammo has to be in a differant container or "case" which really doesn't help me in a time of need. but maybe one of these days it's chicago that ruins it for the rest of the state. anyway my CC rig is a springfield armory XD40 sub compact i love this thing. shoots great very accurate when looking at how short this thing is. holds 9 with the standard mag 12 with ext. you could darn near put this thing in a pocket and nobody would notice. it really is suprising where you can put a pistol. i have done some experiments with some of my buddys just to see if people notice. i didn't tell them anything and then carried. the results suprised me for sure my shoulder rig they never knew, the inside the belt they never knew, and in a pair jeans one day i just thought you what the heck i'll just throw this sucker in my back pocket and see if anybody notices it.
took something like 45 minutes. this was all done on private property just let anybody know and they did not mind.

anyway hats off to you jeep promote the good word become an NRA member protect your rights and become educated. And just because we carry guns does not make us wild rednecks trying to shoot someone. i consider this a service to the community to protect everyone. I would also say that i do have some shooting background as well as civilian training and military US marines. so do not assume

good day
 
izatt82 said:
I would also say that i do have some shooting background as well as civilian training and military US marines. so do not assume
thank you for your service to our country!

safe cycling to you.
 
izatt82 said:
i must say hats off to you and promoting CC. i also hold a license but currently live in illinois where the 2nd amedment apperinetly doesn't mean anything. so i can't carry a loaded firearm the law here is i can carry one but the mag or ammo has to be in a differant container or "case" which really doesn't help me in a time of need. but maybe one of these days it's chicago that ruins it for the rest of the state. anyway my CC rig is a springfield armory XD40 sub compact i love this thing. shoots great very accurate when looking at how short this thing is. holds 9 with the standard mag 12 with ext. you could darn near put this thing in a pocket and nobody would notice. it really is suprising where you can put a pistol. i have done some experiments with some of my buddys just to see if people notice. i didn't tell them anything and then carried. the results suprised me for sure my shoulder rig they never knew, the inside the belt they never knew, and in a pair jeans one day i just thought you what the heck i'll just throw this sucker in my back pocket and see if anybody notices it.
took something like 45 minutes. this was all done on private property just let anybody know and they did not mind.

anyway hats off to you jeep promote the good word become an NRA member protect your rights and become educated. And just because we carry guns does not make us wild rednecks trying to shoot someone. i consider this a service to the community to protect everyone. I would also say that i do have some shooting background as well as civilian training and military US marines. so do not assume

good day
Thanks for your kind words, izatt82. The results of your informal CC test are truly interesting. Thanks for sharing.

The XD line from Springfield Armory is really something. Certain models have amazing capacity, like 14 rounds of .45 ACP. Other compact models are available which might be more suitable for cyclists preferring a smaller frame. One unique aspect of the XD line is that each purchase comes with the XD Gear System which includes a belt holster, magazine loader, and a double magazine pouch. Their sub-compact comes with the XD "Mag X-Tension". Usually, these components must be purchased separately. Springfield seems to be banking on the "package" purchase, which I frankly like very much. I bet other consumers will too.

Here's the link to Springfield Armory:


I too, thank you for your military service!​
 
jeepguy32 said:
To wit: The following comes from a transcript of testimony from John R. Lott, Jr. a John M. Olin Law and Economics Fellow, School of Law, University of Chicago:
Indeed, five times as many children under 5 die from fires that they start with cigarette lighters (150 versus 30) and more die from drowning in water buckets around the home (40). For children under 15, almost 3,000 died in motor-vehicle crashes, 950 drowned and more than 1,000 died from residential fires. Hundreds more children die in bicycle accidents each year than die from all types of firearm accidents.

:)
Quoting John Lott...PRICELESS!

Lott claimed to have conducted a survey on Defensive Gun Use in 1997 in which he claimed that there were more than 2 million instances of DGU each year in the US and 98% of those DGUs involved brandishing a gun, not actually firing it, to deter a criminal.

When Lott was challenged on the figure and asked to produce the raw data that the results were allegedly based on, he claimed that his computer had crashed and he had lost all the data!

Bwaahahahahahahah...the dog ate his homework!

Despite widespread publicity, Lott has never been able to produce a single piece of paper evidence of the alleged survey, nor has he been able to produce even 1 of the "10 unpaid student volunteers" who he claims assisted him and despite claiming that he had surveyed more than 2000 people...only one person (a pro-gun activist) has ever come forward who took part in the alleged survey.

Despite this, Lott continues to use the "2 million DGUs each year" figure as though it was scientific fact, when it is not.

Lott has also admitted fabricating an online persona named "Mary Rosh" who praises his work, claimed to be a former student of his, and urged people to buy his books.

Fabricating an online persona. Joe...how desperate can you get? :D :D :D
 
stevebaby said:
Quoting John Lott...PRICELESS!

Lott claimed to have conducted a survey on Defensive Gun Use in 1997 in which he claimed that there were more than 2 million instances of DGU each year in the US and 98% of those DGUs involved brandishing a gun, not actually firing it, to deter a criminal.

When Lott was challenged on the figure and asked to produce the raw data that the results were allegedly based on, he claimed that his computer had crashed and he had lost all the data!

Bwaahahahahahahah...the dog ate his homework!

Despite widespread publicity, Lott has never been able to produce a single piece of paper evidence of the alleged survey, nor has he been able to produce even 1 of the "10 unpaid student volunteers" who he claims assisted him and despite claiming that he had surveyed more than 2000 people...only one person (a pro-gun activist) has ever come forward who took part in the alleged survey.

Despite this, Lott continues to use the "2 million DGUs each year" figure as though it was scientific fact, when it is not.

Lott has also admitted fabricating an online persona named "Mary Rosh" who praises his work, claimed to be a former student of his, and urged people to buy his books.

Fabricating an online persona. Joe...how desperate can you get? :D :D :D
Please see post 1, paragraph 2 of this thread. Have a nice day.

:)

“An armed society is a polite society.” - Robert A. Heinlein​


P.S. I am not Joe West, although I admire his views and I have made posts on his "How many of you carry..." thread.​
 
yes i love the xd gear also for 550 to 650 depends on model it's really hard to beat all the extras you get and the case is nice. i'll use that case till it falls apart. but for deep concealment a snubby or keltec something in the 380 cal line is probally more suited. as far as having it ready with a jersy on and a belly hoster it would still be hard to conceal a xd i think. but some of those kel tecs are so small just so easy to hide. and some people might say what are gonna do with 380. well if it gets me out of there or the situation it did it's job. you don't need a elephant gun just incase thats my view on it. i like 40 cal for all around ammo. i use hydrashocks personal preferance. but there are other very good loads on the market. but i have nothing against 38 or 380 or 9mm. its a personal choice and what ever you can hide and shoot best. you dont always need the 45. alot of people make fun of my little xd till they shoot it some said it kicks harder that there full size 45 auto. it's light too. so like i said not every one will be happy with my gun. training and more training is key. i have been shooting for alot of my life and when i go back to the range and it has been a while, im rusty and i dont like that. and always remeber practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice make perfect. just shooting isn't enough you need a good range shoot at moving targets get put under presure feel unconfortable. if you do not like this traing then don't carry just my 2 cents. this training presure is only a taste of the real thing. you don't train for it now you'll shoot a bystandard and that is unexeceptable. go get real defensive shooting training it will save your life.
 
izatt82 said:
i must say hats off to you and promoting CC. i also hold a license but currently live in illinois where the 2nd amedment apperinetly doesn't mean anything. Blahblahblah multiple spelling mistakes blahblah

become educated. so do not assume

good day
:D :D :D You could start your education by learning to spell. Education isn't a real high priority in your neck of the backwoods, is it?
Dumb redneck. :D
 
oh i get it the english are too good once again. and since i don't know your real location since craggy island is fictional, i can only guess. I sure am glad that on the internet everyone can be anyone. Well you have your opinion and it's yours not mine. It's to bad the we beat you way back when and thats why i am allowed to CARRY A DAMN GUN IF I WANT TOO. It's too bad that if the british govt ever takes over it's own people it will be the brits that will be calling the US, help us just like the french.

and once we help you you will say **** on you you stupid rednecks. I am not a redneck rather a leatherneck. Go drink your damn tea. Well i guess spelling to us must be like oral hygine is to the brits.
 
S&W 9mm
jeepguy32 said:
As of this writing (May 2007), forty-eight of the fifty United States have some sort of Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) license available to their law-abiding citizens. Really. Look it up. That’s 96% countrywide approval by state legislatures endorsing law abiding citizens having a reasonable means of protecting one’s self from grave danger away from the home. Illinois and Wisconsin are the only states left which deny their citizen’s the legal ability to carry for deterrence, defense, and protection of oneself and others.

Since this is the case, the question many cyclists may ask is no longer “Should I carry?” but rather “What should I carry?” The topic of this thread is not whether or not “carrying” is bad. This is a cycling equipment forum…so we’ll talk equipment! As such, let’s discuss what type of handguns are most suitable as a standard piece of cycling equipment and why.

Before continuing, I wish to state plainly that those who need training should go and get it. If you’re new to firearms, visit your local gun range, find an instructor, get training, get comfortable, and practice, practice, practice. This is a very personal decision and it must be taken seriously. If you need help finding resources in your area the NRA (National Rifle Association) website is a good place to find instructors, classes, and ranges in your area. Sometimes these classes are free! Good instructors love to help and welcome those new to shooting sports. Now, on with the thread…

To the cyclist who has never owned or even thought of owning a handgun for protection on the trail or tour, the selection of an appropriate handgun can be daunting. There are many aspects to consider. Price? Weight? Caliber? Revolver vs. Autoloader? Color? (Yes, color can be an important aspect of a carry “piece”.) You can see why once the very personal decision is made to accept responsibility for your own safety, a whole new myriad of questions must be weighed and waded through to make an appropriate selection. I’ll briefly touch on each of the aspects I’ve mentioned above to start the discussion, then I’ll reveal what my personal choice is and why.

Price? Much like buying a bicycle, price can many times indicate quality. You’ll want to spend as much as you can afford to get the features you wish. Something “too cheap to be true” probably isn’t and might not be reliable or may even be dangerous. Plan to spend in the neighborhood of $300 to even think of a reliable, entry-level purchase.

Weight? This is a double-edged sword. Heaviness reduces “kick” when shot, but being heavy means that it’s HEAVY. We spend a lot of money to buy light bikes. We should probably lean in the same direction when selecting a carry piece. A heavy burden is more likely to be left at home where’s it’s no use on the trail, or in the glove-box of a car which is unwise storage for a number of reasons which I won’t go into right now. I opt for lightness.

Caliber? Discussions about caliber will no doubt become a large part of this tread. In short, for personal protection, it is generally recommended that at least a .380 Auto or equivalent be the bare minimum. Some say use at least a 9mm Luger cartridge, minimum. In a revolver, a .38 would be the least I’d recommend. Once again, this is a very personal decision. A well-known expert in the field of personal protections says that the first rule of gun-fighting is “bring a gun”…rule two is “bring ENOUGH gun”. For what it’s worth, I use as much “punch” as I can comfortably control.

Revolver vs. Autoloader? First off, it irritates me to no end when the liberal media reports on a gun related crime and always seems to mention that an “automatic handgun” (an “auto”) was used. To the uneducated, an “automatic handgun” would imply that you squeeze the trigger once and the result is a steady stream of bullets being fired like a machine gun until empty. This is incorrect as I will explain shortly. I personally feel that this sort of reporting is irresponsible and lathers up the gun control types into an uneducated fervor. But I digress.

Let me describe first what a revolver is and then compare that to an autoloader. Remember, I’m writing this to an audience which may have no firearm experience whatsoever. A revolver is easily identified because it looks like, well, a cowboy gun. It’s what you see in “Hawaii Five-O” reruns. The cartridges (ammunition) are held in a rotating cylinder. Typically a revolver holds anywhere from five to eight cartridges. In most modern revolvers, when the trigger is squeezed once, the cylinder rotates to have a fresh cartridge line up with the barrel, then the cartridge is fired. That’s it. Nothing else happens. One squeeze, one shot. Squeeze again and the process repeats until the ammo is used up.

An autoloader, on the other hand, looks like what James Bond uses, or what you might see in a WW II or Vietnam movie. It stores it’s cartridges in the handle, or “grip”. An autoloader may hold from as little as five to as many as fifteen cartridges (or more) depending on the style and caliber. In most modern autoloaders, when the trigger is squeezed once, a cartridge is fired then a fresh cartridge is automatically loaded, waiting for the next trigger squeeze. That’s it. Nothing else happens. One squeeze, one shot. Squeeze again and the process repeats until the ammo is used up. Notice how “Auto” means auto-load, not auto-fire? Do you feel duped by the media? Once again, I digress.

Historically, revolvers have been considered more reliable and take less maintenance than autoloaders. Modern autoloaders, however, have a great track record of reliability when kept only marginally clean. I am not saying it’s good idea to let any carry piece become dirty, but most quality autoloaders, if not equally reliable as revolvers, are probably close. I’m sure these aspects will be covered as the thread develops.

Color? Color can play an important role to the cyclist wishing to keep a concealed carry piece actually concealed. Our eyes are drawn to light whether that be from a television, a campfire, or even reflected from a stainless steel or nickel plated firearm. I’m one who truly appreciates firearms: historically, mechanically, artistically, and so on. I am especially fond of the brightness and crispness of stainless steel. But if the strategy is concealment, then darker colors are the way to go. A darker piece tends to visually disappear into the recesses and shadows of a handlebar bag or pocket, whereas a bright piece will visually tend to call attention to itself.





My Choice? After months of evaluation and contemplation, for my standard cycling carry piece I chose a Smith & Wesson model 340PD revolver. From the S&W website:
“Smith & Wesson combined a Scandium alloy frame with a Titanium cylinder to build the strongest and lightest weight .357 Magnum revolver made. The result...maximum power in a small, lightweight, easy-to-carry package. Scandium alloy is used for small, medium and large frame revolvers. Smith & Wesson's lightest and strongest revolvers deliver dependable power every time.”



The scandium alloy doesn’t corrode, so I don’t mind if I handle it while sweating. Unloaded it only weighs 12 ounces, so it’s easy to take with me everywhere I go. The .357 is an extremely effective self-protection cartridge, but cheaper and milder kicking .38’s can be shot from the same gun for practice. The “HIVIZ” green light-pipe front sight is easy for the eye to pickup in bright light. For low-light situations I installed a Crimson Trace laser sight, which increases accuracy if tensions are high, but is also an effective visual deterrent without ever squeezing the trigger. The laser sight is built into a slightly smaller grip, which makes the piece even more compact. I can almost completely conceal the unit in my hand. The “PD” designation is the dark (almost black) frame, which doesn’t announce itself as much as it’s shiny “Non-PD” brother (which I think is more attractive, but what the hey).​




So what do you carry? Why? How do you carry it? Why? Got any good tips for others? Let’s hear ‘em. Any beginners with questions? Ask ‘em!


“An armed society is a polite society.” - Robert A. Heinlein​


Hello Joe West!​




:)
 
izatt82 said:
oh i get it the english are too good once again. and since i don't know your real location since craggy island is fictional, i can only guess. I sure am glad that on the internet everyone can be anyone. Well you have your opinion and it's yours not mine. It's to bad the we beat you way back when and thats why i am allowed to CARRY A DAMN GUN IF I WANT TOO. It's too bad that if the british govt ever takes over it's own people it will be the brits that will be calling the US, help us just like the french.

and once we help you you will say **** on you you stupid rednecks. I am not a redneck rather a leatherneck. Go drink your damn tea. Well i guess spelling to us must be like oral hygine is to the brits.
http://www.whocollab.od.mah.se/countriesalphab.html
Global Oral Health - CAPP
(1) British children have better oral health than American children, who have similar oral health to...Ethiopian children.

(2) War of 1812.

(3) "hygiene", not "hygine"

(4) I don't drink tea.

(5) I'm not British.
 
Since it's being discussed?, vigorously debated?, how many of you guys who carry guns when cycling, or for that matter when not cycling, have had to use or produce them to protect yourselves?

Obviously I am not counting if you have gone to war.
 
i have not had to use mine in the civilian world and hope i never have too. Hopefully i can always use my mind and tact to work my way out. and thank god your not british and if you are american i'm glad i could defend your right to say such things. and you should be too.
 
thepeddler said:
Since it's being discussed?, vigorously debated?, how many of you guys who carry guns when cycling, or for that matter when not cycling, have had to use or produce them to protect yourselves?

Obviously I am not counting if you have gone to war.
Once.