Greatest of all time

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ken Papai, May 11, 2003.

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  1. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

    Danny Chew -- greatest rider?

    Eddy Merckx -- greatest (best) road racer.

    -Ken
     
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  2. "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Danny Chew -- greatest rider?
    >
    > Eddy Merckx -- greatest (best) road racer.
    >
    > -Ken

    ------------------------------------------------------
    I can't take it anymore. Going crazy with this question.

    Is Eddy Merck the greatest racer of all time.

    Merck raced against some of the best riders in the history of cycling like Da Vlaeminck, Poulidor,
    Ocana, Gimondi, Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Thevenet, etc.

    Merck won 5 TDF's, 5 Giro's, 3 Paris-R's, 4 Milan San Remo, Flanders twice, Wevelgem three times,
    LBL three times, Wallonne three times, Paris Nice three times, Amstel Gold twice, and there is still
    lots of other races not listed.

    Is Merck the greatest because of the sheer volume of races he won in his explosive career? Is he
    also the greatest because of how he won them? He lead races from start to finish. Many races he lead
    by example driving the train at the front of the pack. Does this make him the great champion? Isn't
    it a combination of things that makes Eddy great, or the fact that he won all the big races, many in
    the same year and won them over and over again?

    Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers today because the times and
    speeds of those races were not up with today's races and riders. Yes the gene pool is much larger
    now and there are lots of good riders today but is it fair to erase what Merck did in light of that
    and say that Merck is just a average rider and not the greatest of all time? Can we erase his
    accomplishments and dismiss his wins because some argue that he had poor competition or that he
    would be considered amateur rider if he were alive today.

    Personally I don't see it as a fair comparison. Merckx was riding against the best of his era, and
    was the best of his time. I have a hard time with saying many average riders today in the pros are
    just as good or better then Merckx was. It's hard to calculate just how hard it was for Merck to win
    all those races in the same year, and do it year after year. That list of rivals is compelling and I
    think he was challenged.

    Today many argue that it's too hard to win several big races in one year and many specialize in
    single big races like the TDF. But it was not that long ago that Indurain and Lemond did it.
    Indurain with the Giro and TDF and Lemond with TDF and the Worlds.

    All things being equal Merckx was the best of his era and raced against one of the most impressive
    lineups in the history of the Tour, at least up to that time. How could you compare Merckx record
    with the riders of today and be objective? Can you really be fair about that assessment?

    No one has even come close to his record and he won races off the front and led by example, having
    said that it's hard to just throw it out the window by saying his competition was poor, the race
    times were poor, and he has inferior genes compared to today's riders.

    How would Merckx fair today if he was born into todays world, grew up with all the perks, technology
    and training methods available? Still some argue that he wouldn't even be as good as a cat 2 rider,
    because of inferior genes.

    I just don't buy the arguement wholesale. I would like to give Eddy the benifit of the doubt that he
    was the greatest rider of all times.

    B-
     
  3. Bla Bla Bla, Merckx this, Merckx that.

    Danny Chew once road 150 miles on a July day without eating or drinking.

    Danny Chew once road 200 miles a day for 3 weeks in a row, just because Ron Lutz told him
    he wouldn't.

    Seana Hogan.


    "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Danny Chew -- greatest rider?
    > >
    > > Eddy Merckx -- greatest (best) road racer.
    > >
    > > -Ken
    >
    > ------------------------------------------------------
    > I can't take it anymore. Going crazy with this question.
    >
    >
    >
    > Is Eddy Merck the greatest racer of all time.
    >
    >
    >
    > Merck raced against some of the best riders in the history of cycling like Da Vlaeminck, Poulidor,
    > Ocana, Gimondi, Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Thevenet,
    etc.
    >
    >
    >
    > Merck won 5 TDF's, 5 Giro's, 3 Paris-R's, 4 Milan San Remo, Flanders
    twice,
    > Wevelgem three times, LBL three times, Wallonne three times, Paris Nice three times, Amstel Gold
    > twice, and there is still lots of other races not listed.
    >
    >
    >
    > Is Merck the greatest because of the sheer volume of races he won in his explosive career? Is he
    > also the greatest because of how he won them? He lead races from start to finish. Many races he
    > lead by example driving the train at the front of the pack. Does this make him the great champion?
    Isn't
    > it a combination of things that makes Eddy great, or the fact that he won all the big races, many
    > in the same year and won them over and over again?
    >
    >
    >
    > Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers today because the times and
    > speeds of those races were not up with today's races and riders. Yes the gene pool is much larger
    > now and there are lots of
    good
    > riders today but is it fair to erase what Merck did in light of that and
    say
    > that Merck is just a average rider and not the greatest of all time? Can
    we
    > erase his accomplishments and dismiss his wins because some argue that he had poor competition or
    > that he would be considered amateur rider if he
    were
    > alive today.
    >
    >
    >
    > Personally I don't see it as a fair comparison. Merckx was riding against the best of his era, and
    > was the best of his time. I have a hard time with saying many average riders today in the pros are
    > just as good or better
    then
    > Merckx was. It's hard to calculate just how hard it was for Merck to win
    all
    > those races in the same year, and do it year after year. That list of
    rivals
    > is compelling and I think he was challenged.
    >
    >
    >
    > Today many argue that it's too hard to win several big races in one year
    and
    > many specialize in single big races like the TDF. But it was not that long ago that Indurain and
    > Lemond did it. Indurain with the Giro and TDF and Lemond with TDF and the Worlds.
    >
    >
    >
    > All things being equal Merckx was the best of his era and raced against
    one
    > of the most impressive lineups in the history of the Tour, at least up to that time. How could you
    > compare Merckx record with the riders of today
    and
    > be objective? Can you really be fair about that assessment?
    >
    >
    >
    > No one has even come close to his record and he won races off the front
    and
    > led by example, having said that it's hard to just throw it out the window by saying his
    > competition was poor, the race times were poor, and he has inferior genes compared to
    > today's riders.
    >
    >
    >
    > How would Merckx fair today if he was born into todays world, grew up with all the perks,
    > technology and training methods available? Still some argue that he wouldn't even be as good as a
    > cat 2 rider, because of inferior genes.
    >
    >
    >
    > I just don't buy the arguement wholesale. I would like to give Eddy the benifit of the doubt that
    > he was the greatest rider of all times.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > B-
     
  4. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    Bruce Johnston wrote:
    >
    > How would Merckx fair today if he was born into todays world, grew up with all the perks,
    > technology and training methods available? Still some argue that he wouldn't even be as good as a
    > cat 2 rider, because of inferior genes.
    >
    How much difference do you think 30 years makes in the human gene pool? Eddy's genes are no worse
    than anybody else's. The gene pool may be larger simply because there's an extra billion or so
    people, but it's no different now than it was then. Those 'some' who argue likely don't know what
    the hell a gene is.

    > I just don't buy the arguement wholesale. I would like to give Eddy the benifit of the doubt that
    > he was the greatest rider of all times.
    >
    You write all that just to end up giving him the benefit of the doubt? Feh.
     
  5. "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Bruce Johnston wrote:
    > >
    > > How would Merckx fair today if he was born into todays world, grew up with all the perks,
    > > technology and training methods available? Still some argue that he wouldn't even be as good as
    > > a cat 2 rider, because of inferior genes.
    > >
    > How much difference do you think 30 years makes in the human gene pool? Eddy's genes are no worse
    > than anybody else's. The gene pool may be larger simply because there's an extra billion or so
    > people, but it's no
    different
    > now than it was then. Those 'some' who argue likely don't know what the
    hell
    > a gene is.
    >
    > > I just don't buy the arguement wholesale. I would like to give Eddy the benifit of the doubt
    > > that he was the greatest rider of all times.
    > >
    > You write all that just to end up giving him the benefit of the doubt?
    Feh.

    No I didn't, I have been having a discussion with a friend about what factors might decide this
    question. I asked Ken about it too.

    Thanks for the imput Kyle, I just really want to know how everyone feels about this question on
    Eddy's place in history. I have read plenty about Eddy in Books.

    I don't post here often, but I wish everyone would just give a yes or no to the question, [Is Eddy
    the best road racer in history]

    Yes or no, any extra details beyond yes or no is welcomed.

    B-
     
  6. "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers today because the times and
    > speeds of those races were not up with today's races and riders. Yes the gene pool is much larger
    > now and there are lots of
    good
    > riders today but is it fair to erase what Merck did in light of that and
    say
    > that Merck is just a average rider and not the greatest of all time? Can
    we
    > erase his accomplishments and dismiss his wins because some argue that he had poor competition or
    > that he would be considered amateur rider if he
    were
    > alive today.
    >

    When did he die?

    --
    Perre
     
  7. "Per Elmsäter" wrote in message ...
    > "Bruce Johnston" wrote in message if he were alive today.

    > When did he die?
    >
    > --

    Apparently, Bruce has to invoke Twain; "The news of my death is greatly exaggerated".

    BTW, when did Merck start racing? Or did they elect to do more than supply
    better-living-through-chemistry?

    -Chris Mitchell Lets no fact get in the way of a good story
     
  8. Bart

    Bart Guest

    Your overview of Merckx palmares is incomplete. But thats beside the point.

    The 'gene pool' argumentation is bizarre really. I can understand that one would say that cycling is
    now global, while Merckx only faced local competition from 4 and a half countries or so. In that
    sense, cyclists indeed came from a more limited 'gene pool'. Which might have led to less depth of
    the field , even at top level.

    The way Merckx dominated races, and that throughout the whole season -doped or not- however is still
    telling enough I think. Don't forget that we only remember his wins, but in the classics he didn't
    win, he was often pacing as hell, but couldn't throw everybody off.

    Also in his career which you call 'explosive', he faced some opponents which only lasted for a few
    years. I think those were generally more doped up than Eddy, so that again speaks for him.

    I don't see the point of comparing speeds with the times of Eddy. If that makes some Cat.2's indeed
    think they are better , BRAVO !!!!!!
     
  9. "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers today because the times and
    > speeds of those races were not up with today's races and riders.

    Who argues that? Name a single Cat 2 racer who could pedal 49.4 kilometers in one hour on a bike
    that matches Merckx's.

    Dude, you are one long-winded freak.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Bruce Johnston wrote:
    >> that Merck is just a average rider and not the greatest of all time? Can
    > we
    >> erase his accomplishments and dismiss his wins because some argue that he had poor competition or
    >> that he would be considered amateur rider if he
    > were
    >> alive today.

    Per Elmsater wrote:
    > When did he die?

    Perhaps he is going to be assasinated by a fanatical LANCE fan as he criticised LANCE.
     
  11. "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers
    today
    > > because the times and speeds of those races were not up with today's
    races
    > > and riders. Yes the gene pool is much larger now and there are lots of
    > good
    > > riders today but is it fair to erase what Merck did in light of that and
    > say
    > > that Merck is just a average rider and not the greatest of all time? Can
    > we
    > > erase his accomplishments and dismiss his wins because some argue that
    he
    > > had poor competition or that he would be considered amateur rider if he
    > were
    > > alive today.
    > >
    >
    >
    > When did he die?

    I meant to say if he were riding today.
    >
    > --
    > Perre
     
  12. "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Some argue that Merck wouldn't be able to keep up with Cat 2 racers
    today
    > > because the times and speeds of those races were not up with today's
    races
    > > and riders.
    >
    > Who argues that?

    I can't say, but it is a well respected RBR poster.

    Name a single Cat 2 racer who could pedal 49.4 kilometers
    > in one hour on a bike that matches Merckx's.

    Talking about track, or greatest road racer?

    > Dude, you are one long-winded freak.

    Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the question. It's a very simple
    question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?

    Yes or no?

    B-
     
  13. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the question. It's a very simple
    > question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?
    >
    > Yes or no?
    >
    Being a chemist, I can't resist this :)

    No. (I don't think he even won a race, although he may have ridden a bike)

    cheers, Jeff (subscribes to "Better Riding Through Chemistry")
     
  14. Jeff Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >> Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the question. It's a very simple
    >> question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?
    > Being a chemist, I can't resist this :)

    > No. (I don't think he even won a race, although he may have ridden a bike)

    That took me a while to understand!

    Didier

    --
    Didier A Depireux [email protected] [email protected] 685 W.Baltimore Str
    http://neurobiology.umaryland.edu/depireux.htm Anatomy and Neurobiology Phone: 410-706-1272 (off)
    University of Maryland -1273 (lab) Baltimore MD 21201 USA Fax: 1-410-706-2512
     
  15. Jeff Jones wrote:

    > "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the question. It's a very simple
    > > question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?
    > >
    > > Yes or no?
    > >
    > Being a chemist, I can't resist this :)
    >
    > No. (I don't think he even won a race, although he may have ridden a bike)
    >
    > cheers, Jeff (subscribes to "Better Riding Through Chemistry")

    Smarty-pant!

    Steve (buy PFE)

    --
    Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
     
  16. "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the question. It's a very simple
    > question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?
    >
    > Yes or no?

    Hey dumbass -

    Even the Biggest Fred knows the answer to that is yes.
     
  17. On Mon, 12 May 2003 14:14:22 -0400, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS wrote:
    >http://www.dentaltwins.com

    I get visions of Beverly and Elliot Mantle.
     
  18. >Eddy Merckx -- greatest (best) road racer.
    >
    Easily

    Regards! Stephen
     
  19. I am not the original poster, but thanks for the straight forward answer.

    B- "Steve McGinty" <[email protected]_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > >Eddy Merckx -- greatest (best) road racer.
    > >
    > Easily
    >
    > Regards! Stephen
     
  20. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Bruce Johnston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Since you want to hurl insults, instead why don't you answer the
    question.
    > > It's a very simple question. Is Merck greatest Road racer of all time?
    > >
    > > Yes or no?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Hey dumbass -
    >
    >
    > Even the Biggest Fred knows the answer to that is yes.

    Yeah, maybe so, but I wanted to hear what others had to say here. Obviously there is a divide on
    this question, from Freds to other well respected RBR posters, writers, cycling commentators,
    historians, etc. I always thought he was but I wanted some feedback also from RBR. I have been
    having a debate with a well respected RBR poster that is not a fred but vigorously disputes it, and
    considers Merck to far from the greatest road racer of all time. It's hard to get an opinion here
    without the put down atitude of RBR to go along with it.

    At least you answered yes, dumbass..

    thanks,

    B-
     
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