Greg Lemond, Lance Armstong, Eddie Mercxx



saherring

New Member
Jul 3, 2004
6
0
0
69
While I admire Lance Armstrong for being able to win 6 Tours de France, he could not have done it without a very good team. Greg Lemond only won 3, but when he be Laurent Finyon by 89 seconds, he only had 2 team mates left in the race for most of the last week of racing. I wonder how Armstrong would have done if this were the case for him. Also, he is undoubtly the best Tour de France racer ever, but would he have been able to win 6 if he had riden at least one of the other tours several of those years. I believe that Eddie Mercxx won 2 major tours in the same season on several occasions, not to mention that he won 525 races in his career. While I am an Armstrong fan, I do not consider him the greatest cyclist ever, or even the greatest Grand Tour rider ever...Just the greatest TDF rider. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?
 

tcklyde

New Member
Dec 17, 2003
1,437
0
0
45
saherring said:
While I admire Lance Armstrong for being able to win 6 Tours de France, he could not have done it without a very good team. Greg Lemond only won 3, but when he be Laurent Finyon by 89 seconds, he only had 2 team mates left in the race for most of the last week of racing. I wonder how Armstrong would have done if this were the case for him. Also, he is undoubtly the best Tour de France racer ever, but would he have been able to win 6 if he had riden at least one of the other tours several of those years. I believe that Eddie Mercxx won 2 major tours in the same season on several occasions, not to mention that he won 525 races in his career. While I am an Armstrong fan, I do not consider him the greatest cyclist ever, or even the greatest Grand Tour rider ever...Just the greatest TDF rider. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?

No one is going to question that Merckx is the greatest ever.

Postal has definitely helped LA recently, but 1999 and 2000 were nothing like 2004.

At some point, dividing up into ever smaller categories get pointless. Bäckstedt is the greatest Paris-Roubaix winner in the last year, but so what? Cycling has changed alot over 100 years. You can't really compare apples and oranges. Is the world champion the real world champion? Will the winner of the ProTour be the best cyclist? How do you compare Cipo to LA. Or even Cipo to Zabel? Coppi only won two Tours but five Giros. Is he better than Indurain who doubled up twice?

Good riders, all three of them you mentioned. But other than Merckx, who won everything, there's just not a lot of way or reason to get into best of this or that.

IMHO, at least.
 

mitosis

New Member
Jun 21, 2004
1,539
0
0
saherring said:
While I admire Lance Armstrong for being able to win 6 Tours de France, he could not have done it without a very good team. Greg Lemond only won 3, but when he be Laurent Finyon by 89 seconds, he only had 2 team mates left in the race for most of the last week of racing. I wonder how Armstrong would have done if this were the case for him. Also, he is undoubtly the best Tour de France racer ever, but would he have been able to win 6 if he had riden at least one of the other tours several of those years. I believe that Eddie Mercxx won 2 major tours in the same season on several occasions, not to mention that he won 525 races in his career. While I am an Armstrong fan, I do not consider him the greatest cyclist ever, or even the greatest Grand Tour rider ever...Just the greatest TDF rider. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?

Merckx didn't just win the tour a couple of times.

Eddie Merckx won 11 grand tours. He won all three jerseys in the Tour de france in the same year. He would have won a 6th tour de france had he not been punched in the kidneys by a "fan". He still managed to come second.

He won Paris-Roubaix 3 times, Milan san remo 7 times, 5 liege bastogne liege, 2 tours of lombardy, 2 tours of belgium, 32 other international classics not to mention the hour record.

Read this: http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200407/s1162272.htm

Then there is Bernard the Badger, "Big Mig" Indurain or "Maitre" Jacques Anquetil?

Lance who?
 

micron

New Member
Jun 19, 2003
598
2
0
mitosis said:
Merckx didn't just win the tour a couple of times.

Eddie Merckx won 11 grand tours. He won all three jerseys in the Tour de france in the same year. He would have won a 6th tour de france had he not been punched in the kidneys by a "fan". He still managed to come second.

He won Paris-Roubaix 3 times, Milan san remo 7 times, 5 liege bastogne liege, 2 tours of lombardy, 2 tours of belgium, 32 other international classics not to mention the hour record.

Read this: http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200407/s1162272.htm

Then there is Bernard the Badger, "Big Mig" Indurain or "Maitre" Jacques Anquetil?

Lance who?
Fausto Coppi:

1940 Giro d'Italia
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1941 Giro dell'Emilia
Tre Valli Varesine
Giro del Veneto
1942 Hour Record - 45.798km
1946 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Grand Prix des Nations
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Unofficial Season-Long Competition (see Season long competitions page)
1947 Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Lombardy
Grand Prix des Nations
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Veneto
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
1948 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Giro dell'Emilia
Tre Valli Varesine
KoM, Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
1949 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
3 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Giro del Veneto
Desgrange-Colombo Trophy
1950 Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
1951 1 stage, Tour de France
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
1952 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
1953 Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1954 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
KoM, Giro d'Italia
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
2 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1955 Tre Valli Varesine
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1957 Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ercole Baldini

Notice the 4 year gap for WWII - and Coppi still has one more GT win than Armstrong (including 2 GT doubles)
 

mitosis

New Member
Jun 21, 2004
1,539
0
0
micron said:
Fausto Coppi:

1940 Giro d'Italia
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1941 Giro dell'Emilia
Tre Valli Varesine
Giro del Veneto
1942 Hour Record - 45.798km
1946 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Grand Prix des Nations
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Unofficial Season-Long Competition (see Season long competitions page)
1947 Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Lombardy
Grand Prix des Nations
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Veneto
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
1948 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Giro dell'Emilia
Tre Valli Varesine
KoM, Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
1949 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
3 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
Giro del Veneto
Desgrange-Colombo Trophy
1950 Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
1951 1 stage, Tour de France
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
1952 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
1953 Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1954 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Lombardy
KoM, Giro d'Italia
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
2 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1955 Tre Valli Varesine
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Riccardo Filippi
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1957 Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ercole Baldini

Notice the 4 year gap for WWII - and Coppi still has one more GT win than Armstrong (including 2 GT doubles)


My sincerest apologies. It was a crime to leave Coppi out.

I assume that most Lance supporters have a limited knowledge of cycling. Limited to the last 6 T's de F.
 

DiabloScott

New Member
May 15, 2003
2,284
4
38
mitosis said:
My sincerest apologies. It was a crime to leave Coppi out.

I assume that most Lance supporters have a limited knowledge of cycling. Limited to the last 6 T's de F.

Good god, the variations on this topic are infinitely and nauseatingly banal.
 

micron

New Member
Jun 19, 2003
598
2
0
DiabloScott said:
Good god, the variations on this topic are infinitely and nauseatingly banal.
soory, didn't realise an appreciation of the traditions and history of the sport and its truly great champions was infinitely and nauseatingly banal - sorry, must say 12 'hail Armstrongs' and several 'our Disco full of grace'
 

DiabloScott

New Member
May 15, 2003
2,284
4
38
micron said:
soory, didn't realise an appreciation of the traditions and history of the sport and its truly great champions was infinitely and nauseatingly banal - sorry, must say 12 'hail Armstrongs' and several 'our Disco full of grace'


"Well, now you know." (said Mr. Stoller to son Dave)

The freshman (American) newb comes on a forum like this and asks how Armstrong rates in the names of cycling's greats.

The junior tifoso comes on and berates the newb for thinking anyone could even sniff Eddy's chamois.

This endless "cycle" has been played out at least a trillion times over these and other boards.
 

micron

New Member
Jun 19, 2003
598
2
0
DiabloScott said:
"Well, now you know." (said Mr. Stoller to son Dave)

The freshman (American) newb comes on a forum like this and asks how Armstrong rates in the names of cycling's greats.

The junior tifoso comes on and berates the newb for thinking anyone could even sniff Eddy's chamois.

This endless "cycle" has been played out at least a trillion times over these and other boards.
so the American newb must be fed the brainless 'Armstrong is the Greatest Ever' line to placate them - you assume they are so ignorant, insular and uninterested in anything else in the sport aside from Armstrong and the Tour de France that they wouldn't like to find out something about the history of the sport and other riders - to be better informed and better able to argue their position? The original poster clearly stated their position and asked others for their opinions - if you're not interested, why not butt out?
 

brettem

New Member
Feb 25, 2005
7
0
0
You may be right but it is normal for people to follow what they know.

I can remember hearing about (and seeing) Mercxx a couple of times near the end of his career as a small kid. But when I actually took up cycling more seriously Indurain was all over the place before Lemond's surprise. Armstrong's determination is great and to become a speciallist in the TdF with six wins is amazing. I didn't learn about others like Coppi until much later.

So of them Indurain had the greatest effect on me (but I still can't climb hills) and is, I suppose, my "favourite". Of course being from down under means that Armstrong doesn't have a chance with me. The green jersey win is of course the most important in the TdF (go Robbie).

And this year we might even do ok in the GC with Vengls et al.
 

DiabloScott

New Member
May 15, 2003
2,284
4
38
micron said:
so the American newb must be fed the brainless 'Armstrong is the Greatest Ever' line to placate them - you assume they are so ignorant, insular and uninterested in anything else in the sport aside from Armstrong and the Tour de France that they wouldn't like to find out something about the history of the sport and other riders - to be better informed and better able to argue their position? The original poster clearly stated their position and asked others for their opinions - if you're not interested, why not butt out?

No... I deduce from their banal questions that they are so ignorant, insular, and unintersted that they don't bother to peruse the forums (or any other resource) before they post another trite poll about a subject that's been hashed to ****** death.

Move on or roll over.
 

mitosis

New Member
Jun 21, 2004
1,539
0
0
DiabloScott said:
Good god, the variations on this topic are infinitely and nauseatingly banal.

As are posters who think cycling is limited to the T de F and LA. Nothing wrong with giving people a little information so they can make informed judgements.

They, like you, can then chose to leave their head buried in the sand or be informed. Simple really.
 

DiabloScott

New Member
May 15, 2003
2,284
4
38
mitosis said:
As are posters who think cycling is limited to the T de F and LA. Nothing wrong with giving people a little information so they can make informed judgements.

They, like you, can then chose to leave their head buried in the sand or be informed. Simple really.

Like ME? I'm complaining about the same people you are. My point was they should get informed BEFORE they make yet another post comparing Lance to any of the great ones especially Eddy. It's not like the information isn't available - but they seem to think they've got a thought-provoking question when really they're clueless.
 

JohnO

New Member
Jul 5, 2003
1,495
0
0
An essential point has been missed. Whether Lance wins because he is backed up with a disciplined team (partially true), whether he wins on physical ability (partially true), or whether he wins on shrewd tactics (partially true) doesn't really matter. It's a complete package. You need the right combination of all of the above.

The fact is - he figured out the winning formula, and no one else has, for six years. These 'he wouldn't win 6 TDF's if he also rode every weekend club crit in the world' arguments are irrelevant. He figured out how to put himself in the position where he could put most of his focus into the one big race. And no one else has. Same goes for the 'he wouldn't win if he didn't have such a good team to back him up' statements. He figured out how to get that dedicated team, and no one else has.

Despite the thousand or so variations that people can come up with, the fact remains - Lance achieved what no one else could, because he figured out what it takes, when no one else could.

Stop looking for excuses, and start figuring out how to beat him, before he retires.
 

mitosis

New Member
Jun 21, 2004
1,539
0
0
DiabloScott said:
Like ME? I'm complaining about the same people you are. My point was they should get informed BEFORE they make yet another post comparing Lance to any of the great ones especially Eddy. It's not like the information isn't available - but they seem to think they've got a thought-provoking question when really they're clueless.

Got to agree with you there.
 

Wayneraltman

New Member
Jul 30, 2006
8
0
0
The assertion that anyone other than Lance Armstrong is the greatest bike racer in history is completly ridiculous. Certainly not Greg Lemond, that is for certain. It shames me to participate in a sport that Lemond has bruised so badly with his unfounded attacks on the true hero of the sport.

Mr Lemond, if you know something the rest of us do not, please come out with it, otherwise your baseless attacks on Lance make you look bad, not him. He, in every way shape and form on a bike is the better man, and your rumor, and inuendo do nothing to change that.

Most of us regarded you as a hero as well, but no longer. You are pathetic, and are undermining the recovery of the sport... so stop. It is very telling that there are NO contact points on any of Lemond's websites. He offers his "fans no way I could find of contacting him. Could it be that he could not bear the fans of Lance Armstrong slapping him silly every time he made these clueless charges?

Grow up Lemond, get over it you have been bested for all time, and there is no way around it.

Wayne Altman
 

Wayneraltman

New Member
Jul 30, 2006
8
0
0
By the way this thread is exactly like the MMA thread I belong to. Compare the greatest cyclists to those of another era is brainless. Tactics change technology changes, ect. How about this? In the modern era Lance Armstrong is the undisputed king of cycling, and I would not **** on Greg Lemond if he were burning at my feet.

Wayne Altman
 

jws

New Member
Jan 2, 2004
189
0
0
Comparing riders from different eras is anything but brainless; just because there is no one definitive answer only makes it more interesting.

Regarding Armstrong, the real shame is that all through his career he made a point to ostracize whistelblowers like Bassons and Simeoni. If cycling is to be cleaned up, it's the riders, particularly the top riders, that must demand it.

my list:

1) Merckx
2) Hinault
3) Coppi
4) Van Looy
 

mitosis

New Member
Jun 21, 2004
1,539
0
0
How about: in the modern era (last 10 years) Armstrong is the king of the tour de france.

If you want the true king of cycling go no further than Eric Zabel.
 

Wayneraltman

New Member
Jul 30, 2006
8
0
0
mitosis said:
How about: in the modern era (last 10 years) Armstrong is the king of the tour de france.

If you want the true king of cycling go no further than Eric Zabel.
That is acceptable, of course I meant the TDF in my post. I am more ignorant of the other races. I stand corrected.

It just burns me that it is ok to snipe someone from the shadows, and with no proof whatsoever. All one would have to do is whisper they had absolute proof of Lance Armstrong cheating, and the press would fill the Grand Canyon to get it published. So please stop with the disparraging comments about LA. He is innocent of any wrong doing until you can prove otherwise.

Wayne Altman