Greg Lemond Press Conf against Lance



poulidor

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slovakguy said:
huge apology, poulidor. totally misread your post. thank you for setting me straight. again, my apologies.
No problem. My perfect english don't allow mistakes in my writing
 

poulidor

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He spoke english, the language of the kings and noblemen is too difficult for him! :D
 

Flyer

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RdBiker said:
You got me wrong. What I meant to say was that there's beacoup suspicion that Armstrong has doped and there's beacoup suspicion that Lemond didn't dope. Whether LeMond doped or not I'm not gonna say anything since I don't know (anything) about him.
I was just saying that it's a pity that since lots of riders dope and have doped we can't be 100% sure that LeMond was clean because we can't prove it one-hundred-percent - even though we have evidence that he wouldn't have doped. So the same goes for Lance, it's just the other way around: no matter how much we doubt his performances we can't be 100% sure that he's doped, no matter how much evidence we have.

Did this clear things or did I just mess my message more? :)
wwee
 

swampy1970

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poulidor said:
To compare suspicions between Lance and Greg is too much!
For Lance we need a full library, for the second we have just Lance saying he could pay someone to say that Greg used EPO when nobody in pro-cycling were extremely probably using it!
Don't forget that with Lance there is more than suspicions, all clues are indicating doping (improvement, performance, VO2max, team, manager, context, doping cases, lies, ...)
So, how did Greg go from being on the verge of quitting the sport in June 89 during the early stages of the Giro where he was pretty much getting shelled out the back every stage (just like he was off the back in pretty much all the early season races that year) to a mere 8 to 10 weeks later winning the Tour and setting the fastest time trial speed ever recorded - faster than when he was being dropped by the peloton in the Giro.

He say' injections of vitamin B12....

Fancy considering something else - since you all pretty much believe that Lance, given his pre-1998 Tour results could never have become a Tour champion:

Name this rider.

Tour de France

1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th


Vuelta

1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew

Sure signs of a future 5 times winner, no?
 

Andrija

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swampy1970 said:
So, how did Greg go from being on the verge of quitting the sport in June 89 during the early stages of the Giro where he was pretty much getting shelled out the back every stage (just like he was off the back in pretty much all the early season races that year) to a mere 8 to 10 weeks later winning the Tour and setting the fastest time trial speed ever recorded - faster than when he was being dropped by the peloton in the Giro.

He say' injections of vitamin B12....

Fancy considering something else - since you all pretty much believe that Lance, given his pre-1998 Tour results could never have become a Tour champion:

Name this rider.

Tour de France

1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th


Vuelta

1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew

Sure signs of a future 5 times winner, no?
Indurain?
His progress in the Tour is obvious and Vuelta was just for training:rolleyes:.
Doping is present in cycling for a long time. And systematic (team) doping probably since '90s. Hipocrisy and denial are things which irritate... That's why we're talking so much about doping. It's obvious and everybody is denying it. I don't say they should say: "Yes, we're doped to the gills!", but better shut up and don't make us fools. Like they were doing in '60s, '70s, '80s.
 

classic1

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Besides the fact that nobody here was discussing Indurain or stating he was clean, it is worth pointing out that Indurain was 20 or 21 years old in 1985. His 1989 Tour included a mountain top stage win, one of the toughest rides I have ever seen.

There were vague rumours about Lemond in 1989, but not even circumstancial evidence. FWIW, Lemond was outspoken about doping right throughout his career.

IMO times have changed. The dope they have now can turn a donkey into a racehorse. What was acceptable or not discussed in 1987 is not acceptable in 2008. Apparently women can vote now and the word ****er is unacceptable too.
 

poulidor

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swampy1970 said:
So, how did Greg go from being on the verge of quitting the sport in June 89 during the early stages of the Giro where he was pretty much getting shelled out the back every stage (just like he was off the back in pretty much all the early season races that year) to a mere 8 to 10 weeks later winning the Tour and setting the fastest time trial speed ever recorded - faster than when he was being dropped by the peloton in the Giro.

He say' injections of vitamin B12....

Fancy considering something else - since you all pretty much believe that Lance, given his pre-1998 Tour results could never have become a Tour champion:

Name this rider.

...

Sure signs of a future 5 times winner, no?
About the fastest ITT recorded by Lemond, we have already explained that speed. The stage was Versailles- Champs Elysees, so a long downhill (180m -40m) helped with back-wind. Have you noticed that all riders have recorded their best speed that day?

Lemond on Giro could be ill but he had already proved what was his level. So after recovering there is no reason that he should be able to win a new TDF (a racehorse turned again in a a racehorse). There is nothing in common with Lance's case, a horse becoming a racehorse.

Indurain was a gifted rider but he worked with Padilla. His improvements were huge and very probably linked with EPO
"average power on marathon mountain stages" said:
Les années 80 :
Avoriaz 1985, Herrera, Hinault 375 w
Superbagnères 1986, Lemond 380 w
Alpe d'Huez 1987, Herrera 395 w, 1989 Fignon, Delgado 390 w

Les années 90 :
Luz-Ardiden 1990, Indurain, Lemond 390 w
Saint Lary 1993, Indurain, Jaskula, Rominger 430 w
Val Thorens 1994, Pantani 437 w
Alpe d'Huez 1995, Pantani 460 w
La Plagne 1995, Indurain 448 w
Arcalis 1997,Ullrich 474 w
Les Deux Alpes 1998, Pantani 450 w
Les années 2000 :
Hautacam 2000, Armstrong 449 w
Alpe d'Huez 2001, Armstrong 442 w
Luz-Ardiden 2003, Armstrong 442 w
Courchevel 2005, Valverde, Armstrong 449 w​
 

swampy1970

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Andrija said:
Indurain?
His progress in the Tour is obvious and Vuelta was just for training:rolleyes:.
Training for a top 20 place in the Tour despite his teammate Delgado winning the 1989 Vuelta? Nice when a domestique can quit "just because he's training" when you have a teammate with a 'massive' victory of around 1/2 a minute and that was after Delgado put that 30 seconds into Parra in the final timetrial. That's teamwork for ya...
 

swampy1970

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poulidor said:
About the fastest ITT recorded by Lemond, we have already explained that speed. The stage was Versailles- Champs Elysees, so a long downhill (180m -40m) helped with back-wind. Have you noticed that all riders have recorded their best speed that day?

Lemond on Giro could be ill but he had already proved what was his level. So after recovering there is no reason that he should be able to win a new TDF (a racehorse turned again in a a racehorse). There is nothing in common with Lance's case, a horse becoming a racehorse.

Indurain was a gifted rider but he worked with Padilla. His improvements were huge and very probably linked with EPO
[/indent]
I remember the final timetrial in the 89 Tour well - I watched in live on Eurosport... Yes, the riders were helped with the a tail wind but the fact is that LeMond was the only one in 54x12 pretty much the entire way. Figure that he took almost a minute out of the Giro winner (Fignon) and caught the Vuelta winner (Delgado) on the line in a little over 15 miles. That's not just good that's damned amazing. Factor in that Delgado was in great form that year and whilst not the best time trialist he's not normally beaten in a time trial by that amount in time trials more than twice that length - remember, Delgado missed his prologue start by over 2 minutes and his team lost him even more in the TTT - he was only 3 1/2 minutes back at the end of the Tour.

LeMond wasn't just 'sick' in the Giro - his entire 1989 season had been a shambles. How exactly do you go from back of the pack and off the back for an entire year and then be Tour champion within the space of a couple of weeks?

I admire LeMond for his achievements - a great cyclist for sure but I always thought his performances in the latter half of '89 were too good to be true. He toyed with them in the World Championships later that year - when Fignon attacked on the last lap at the start of the hill (cote du chamberet?) he got a pretty big gap. Near the top the TV cameraman looked back down the road and there was noone in sight... yet about 20 seconds later LeMond shows up turning a gear about 5 sprockets smaller than Fignon and just rode him off his wheel. The only thing that would have stopped LeMond winning that day would have been getting two flat tires and a pair of square wheels off the Mavic service car. Not bad for an athelete that could only just finish top 30 in the Tour de Trump in May.
 

limerickman

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swampy1970 said:
I admire LeMond for his achievements - a great cyclist for sure but I always thought his performances in the latter half of '89 were too good to be true. He toyed with them in the World Championships later that year - when Fignon attacked on the last lap at the start of the hill (cote du chamberet?) he got a pretty big gap. Near the top the TV cameraman looked back down the road and there was noone in sight... yet about 20 seconds later LeMond shows up turning a gear about 5 sprockets smaller than Fignon and just rode him off his wheel. The only thing that would have stopped LeMond winning that day would have been getting two flat tires and a pair of square wheels off the Mavic service car. Not bad for an athelete that could only just finish top 30 in the Tour de Trump in May.

LeMond did go well that day in Chambery in 1989.

I'm not sure that his performance that day was as emphatic as you appear to suggest.
Konychev and kelly were breathing down LeMonds neck in the last 10 metres.

Granted LeMond was pedalling much lower gears that Fignon and kelly that day.
kelly is on record saying that he had the wrong gear setup for the final sprint - given the weather conditions that day.
Kelly has always insisted that he should have used a lower gear.

The professional dopers in the peloton today, when accused of doping, go on at length about how professional they are compared to the 1990's and back through the decades.
Given how "unprofessional" they all were back then (!), it's amazing how they managed to dope and how it all kept stum.
Given that they were all unprofessional, of course.

Personally I don't know if LeMond doped - much less care at this stage.

Fact is we are where we are..............this current bunch of dopers when confronted, always try to deflect the argument and accuse others of being unprofessional, or accuse riders from the past of being bitter, or they're victims of a worldwide international conspiracy or the dog at my copy book.................
 

poulidor

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To finish with the quickest ITT:
21 Versailles-Paris, 24.5 km ITT
1. Greg LeMond en 26'57"
2. Marie à 33"
3. Fignon à 58"
4. Nijdam à 1'07"
5. Yates à 1'10"
6. Maechler
7. Wechselberger à 1'11"
8. Mottet à 1'16"
9. Beuker à 1'19"
10. Skibby à 1'22"

Lemond was the only rider using a triathlete handle bar! A significant advantage too, probably one sec/km or more!
 

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whiteboytrash said:
Vino's Dad who supplies his blood to the entire team is standing on the far right. Strong as an Ox & ****** as fart most days.
wwee
 

Flyer

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whiteboytrash said:
Vino's Dad who supplies his blood to the entire team is standing on the far right. Strong as an Ox & ****** as fart most days.
dddss
 

Flyer

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Eldrack said:
Simple summary:

Once upon a time there was a cyclist called Lance who cheated and won 7 tours. There was also another man called Greg Lemond who also cheated but didn't win as many tours and so was jealous of the man who had cheated better than him and won 7. And so he whined and whined a lot.

Blah blah blah blah sick of all this **** blah blah blah blah blah
eeeeww
 

swampy1970

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poulidor said:
To finish with the quickest ITT:
21 Versailles-Paris, 24.5 km ITT
1. Greg LeMond en 26'57"
2. Marie à 33"
3. Fignon à 58"
4. Nijdam à 1'07"
5. Yates à 1'10"
6. Maechler
7. Wechselberger à 1'11"
8. Mottet à 1'16"
9. Beuker à 1'19"
10. Skibby à 1'22"

Lemond was the only rider using a triathlete handle bar! A significant advantage too, probably one sec/km or more!
So, lets say 2 seconds a km, or just under a minute from the tri bars. 10 weeks earlier in the Giro he was getting shelled out the back and was even thinking of quiting the sport. That ~48 seconds still would have put his ahead of Fignon on the days race and ahead of really good time trialists like Nidjam (an ex prologue winner) and Yates, who held the fastest long distance tour time trial at the time.

How did Greg make that comeback? A bottle of vitamins, a few B12 injections in the ass and an after race massage? How do you mystically find form like that?
 

poulidor

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So we seem to agree that Lemond's ITT is not suspicious according to his other performances in that TDF.

Is Lemond's results consistent with his results on his precedent TDF?
If Lemond was using PED, what kind of PED could it be?

For me, it seems more logic that illness (lack of iron?) could have diminish his performance. So he was not out of form, and after recovering he performed at his usual level.
 

classic1

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poulidor said:
So we seem to agree that Lemond's ITT is not suspicious according to his other performances in that TDF.

Is Lemond's results consistent with his results on his precedent TDF?
If Lemond was using PED, what kind of PED could it be?

For me, it seems more logic that illness (lack of iron?) could have diminish his performance. So he was not out of form, and after recovering he performed at his usual level.
Lac de Vassiviere TT in 1985 and 1990 on the exact same circuit, similar points in the Tour. Lemond was faster in 1985 than in 1990. Hotter conditions in 1990 and he had aero bars, plus probably more to race for considering he wasn't in yellow. I don't know about the wind.
 

swampy1970

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poulidor said:
So we seem to agree that Lemond's ITT is not suspicious according to his other performances in that TDF.

Is Lemond's results consistent with his results on his precedent TDF?
If Lemond was using PED, what kind of PED could it be?

For me, it seems more logic that illness (lack of iron?) could have diminish his performance. So he was not out of form, and after recovering he performed at his usual level.
If it was a lack of iron, then hematocrit levels would have taken at least a month to start to get back to where they should be once levels of serum iron and ferritin get back to normal and this is during periods of rest - not a 3 week grand tour that'll push the body so hard that it struggles to replace the red blood cells that a destroyed or as my doc puts it "retired". That it was suggested that he did this during the Giro seems 'odd' Even taken intravenously (I know this because I was clinically anemic many years ago and went through iron and B12 therapy - shoot me up Doc!) it isn't an instant fix, you still have to get iron levels back up and then allow the body to manufacture red blood cells. It definitely isn't a quick fix nor an overnight process, which makes his return to form at the end of the Giro surprising.

I'm not arguing that his form during that Tour was different from anyother Tour he rode - just than his form during the second half of the year was massively increased compared to the latter part of the first half.

What PED could he have taken? Who knows and personally, I don't really care but don't you think it's a little conincidental that 1989 was the year that the FDA approved Epogen for use in the US...