Greg's Evidence

I think where doping is more evident is (as was mentioned) is in the mountains... These days you see guys almost crashing ascending a mountain because they overcook the hairpins. OK probably not a hors categorie mountain but I think the mountain they climbed the other day in the Giro (the one Di Louca won) was 1st category and they were doing 30-35kph... That can't be possible... It just can't...

Most of the drugs and methods prior to blood packing and EPO were more of the nature of painkillers and physical exhaustion maskers. Amphetamines make you feel better and stronger but don't actually make you stronger. That's part of why Tom Simpson died on Mt Ventou in the sixties. His "mix" was a bit too rich and stopped his body from shutting down (ie. bonking) before the effort killed him. EPO, HGH, etc that they use nowadays improve real performance.

I believe I read somewhere once that Anquitel tried doing an race without drugs and actually won but he said he's never do it again because it hurt too much.
Some such legend.

waxbytes said:

Most of the drugs and methods prior to blood packing and EPO were more of the nature of painkillers and physical exhaustion maskers. Amphetamines make you feel better and stronger but don't actually make you stronger. That's part of why Tom Simpson died on Mt Ventou in the sixties. His "mix" was a bit too rich and stopped his body from shutting down (ie. bonking) before the effort killed him. EPO, HGH, etc that they use nowadays improve real performance.

I believe I read somewhere once that Anquitel tried doing an race without drugs and actually won but he said he's never do it again because it hurt too much.
Some such legend.

Agree 100%, Wax.

Serafino said:

Under oath in an arbitration panel. What are the rules of perjury in this case?

The only clean TdF winner is a bit much and self serving.

Interesting that he refused to talk about Lance even though his lawyer later indicated he had no legal reason for preventing him from doing so ....

He didn't talk about Armstrong because Armstrong put heat on Trek to lean on LeMond after LeMond said Armstrong admitting doping to LeMond. That was one hell of a confusing sentence. I'm no E.B White.

azdroptop said:

Lim, no offense ment here at all, but I remember you saying something similar about Jan and look where we are with him now? I'd like to believe Lemond, Lance, Meryckx and the like were all clean, but it seems incredibly unlikely. I'm new to the cycling game and to be honest love the racing regardless. Watching the pro races makes me want to go out and ride all day.

I believe Lemond when he says he didn't dope. If he doped, he wouldn't be this vocal about the subject. I don't believe Armstrong and Mercxk. Both of those guys tested positve. Both of them contribute to the omerta.

Durring the Vs. coverage of the Giro today they made mention that Lemond said something about Landis calling him and saying he's a doper, but could not admit it because he would loose all of his freinds??? Sounds similar to what Lance supposedly said to him right? Anyone else catch this today?

Also, they were really bagging on Basso like he's the only one who dopes. Pretty sad really.

Excerpt of Lemond's testimony

Quoted post said:

q: what did he say?
a (Lemond): why are you talking about me

voiced my concerns that if true about floyd, this is devastating to the sport.

q: did you give advice?
a: clear that i did not judge, if you did change the sport to save the sport and hoped and encouraged him to come clean?

q: what was his responsE?
a: what good would it do?

q: did you share a story with him, a very personal matter.
a: yes.

q: purpose
a:

q: his response?
a: i don't see any good that would come of that, it would destroy a lot of my friends

q: did you lean of message?
a:

limerickman said:

2005 3,607 41.6Kmph

2006 3,654 38Kmph

Not to mention the distinct drop from 2005 & 2006.
hmmm Operation Puerto???? :eek:
took a little sting out of everybodies legs or ummm.... something!

The last time the TDF averaged 38km/h or lower was 1994

I don't know how the years course profiles compared, but regardless a drop of 2.6km/h in the one year. 06 wasn't a brutal year as far as conditions and course profile goes.

Trev_S said:

Not to mention the distinct drop from 2005 & 2006.
hmmm Operation Puerto???? :eek:
took a little sting out of everybodies legs or ummm.... something!

The last time the TDF averaged 38km/h or lower was 1994

I don't know how the years course profiles compared, but regardless a drop of 2.6km/h in the one year. 06 wasn't a brutal year as far as conditions and course profile goes.

You are correct, we have seen big gruppetos in mountain stages. This revealed that non-climber rider without (or less) blood dopingwas not able to follow the top riders.
Probably, most teams and riders were afraid to be caught by poilice during a refuelling operation after OP.

limerickman said:

The average TDF speed in the 1989 TDF which LeMond won, covering 3,500
kilometeres was 37kmph.

The 2004 TDF average speed, was 41kmph, covering 3,500 kilometres.
Both routes had much the same profile in terms of climbing distances/gradients.
That's an increase of 4Kmph for each and every kilometre cycled - in both events.
If you do cycle - try cycling 4Kpmh or 2.5mph faster for every kilometre/miles
Then you might begin to understand how such a differential is practically impossible to explain away by "better equipment/losing weight/"I train harder than anyone else in history, Blah, blah, blah"

For the rest of you - here are the average speed and distances for the TDF
1984 to 2006.

Year Distance (kms) Av Speed (Kms)

1984 4,020 34kmph

1985 4,127 36Kmph

1986 4,083 37Kmph

1987 4,231 36Kmph

1988 3,285 38Kmph

1989 3,285 37Kmph

1990 3,403 37Kmph

1991 3,914 38Kmph

1992 3,983 39Kmph

1993 3,512 37Kmph

1994 3,978 38Kmph

1995 3,635 39Kmph

1996 3,764 39Kmph

1997 3,943 39Kmph

1998 3,728 40Kmph

1999 3.686 40Kmph

2000 3,661 39Kmph

2001 3,454 40Kmph

2002 3,277 39Kmph

2003 3,426 41Kmph

2004 3,391 41Kpmh

2005 3,607 41.6Kmph

2006 3,654 38Kmph

Of course it's impossible to explain... because, in the words of those who blame doping for everything, you don't want to hear anything else. To deny that advances in technology, training and sports nutrition as having a big part in increasing speed is either completely moronic or simply denial (another term used by those who blame doping for everything).

ilpirata said:

That would be my definition. I find Lemond more believable than Lance or Floyd.

I find Lemond more pathetic than Lance or Floyd. To believe Armstrong doped you have to believe the system is HORRIBLY flawed. You can't be as tested as he is and get away with it unless the testing is innacurate.

Landis's guy was stupid for calling Lemond, but how can you hold Floyd accountable. Anyone seriously telling me if someone told you what Greg told you that you wouldn't tell a close friend or 2 or 10?

Lemond just can't seem to be happy leaving other American's who have won alone. He seems to be just one big malcontent.

Do you really believe Armstrong and Landis both confessed to this one guy!? This one guy who they both know has it in for them? I mean, please! Dont let the whole molestation thing turn your brain to mush out of sympathy. I feel sorry for the guy, but he is full of it.

Greg, if you read this. Enjoy your money, your family and leave everyone else alone. You were a badass in your day. Move on.

nosduh said:

I find Lemond more pathetic than Lance or Floyd. To believe Armstrong doped you have to believe the system is HORRIBLY flawed. You can't be as tested as he is and get away with it unless the testing is innacurate.

Correct. The system is horribly flawed. Read Victor Conte's recent comments if you want the inside track. He describes in-season drugs tests as nothing more than an iq test: all a test negative proves is that the athlete wasn't stupid enough to get caught. If we went on drugs tests alone, then cycling would be just about the cleanest sport out there. Who passed all their drugs tests? David Millar, Ivan Basso, Raimundo Rumsas, Jörg Jaschke, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Tony Rominger, Evgeny Berzin, Alejandro Valverde, Lance Armstrong... you get the idea. I was going to say Jan Ullrich, but of course he failed the iq test for amphetamines once. Even Pantani never actually failed a drugs test.

nosduh said:

Landis's guy was stupid for calling Lemond, but how can you hold Floyd accountable. Anyone seriously telling me if someone told you what Greg told you that you wouldn't tell a close friend or 2 or 10?

Flandis was in the room when Geoghan made the call. He didn't stop the guy, tell anyone, or fire the guy until it came out in court. Whoops.

nosduh said:

Do you really believe Armstrong and Landis both confessed to this one guy!? This one guy who they both know has it in for them? I mean, please!

Of course. They thought that Lemond was one of them. They assumed (rightly or wrongly) that he won the Tour the same way that they did, and they assumed that he was as wrapped up in the hold of omerta as they are.

House said:

Of course it's impossible to explain... because, in the words of those who blame doping for everything, you don't want to hear anything else. To deny that advances in technology, training and sports nutrition as having a big part in increasing speed is either completely moronic or simply denial (another term used by those who blame doping for everything).

Clear you have some points here, but I don't think that advances were enough to see riders needing to brake climbing a passe.
When hct was limited to 50% we have seen a decrase of power output !
When EPO test was introduced performance decreased again, but 2 years later with micro-dosing and blood doping, they were back...
There is too many correlations between antidoping acts and performances...

poulidor said:

Clear you have some points here, but I don't think that advances were enough to see riders needing to brake climbing a passe.
When hct was limited to 50% we have seen a decrase of power output !
When EPO test was introduced performance decreased again, but 2 years later with micro-dosing and blood doping, they were back...
There is too many correlations between antidoping acts and performances...

Do you see the issue now? I never said there was no doping, just that to claim doping was the only thing that increased speeds is completely moronic. Some people on this forum prefer to stick to their agenda rather then admit more then doping has occurred.

rob of the og said:

Correct. The system is horribly flawed. Read Victor Conte's recent comments if you want the inside track. He describes in-season drugs tests as nothing more than an iq test: all a test negative proves is that the athlete wasn't stupid enough to get caught. If we went on drugs tests alone, then cycling would be just about the cleanest sport out there. Who passed all their drugs tests? David Millar, Ivan Basso, Raimundo Rumsas, Jörg Jaschke, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Tony Rominger, Evgeny Berzin, Alejandro Valverde, Lance Armstrong... you get the idea. I was going to say Jan Ullrich, but of course he failed the iq test for amphetamines once. Even Pantani never actually failed a drugs test.

Flandis was in the room when Geoghan made the call. He didn't stop the guy, tell anyone, or fire the guy until it came out in court. Whoops.

Of course. They thought that Lemond was one of them. They assumed (rightly or wrongly) that he won the Tour the same way that they did, and they assumed that he was as wrapped up in the hold of omerta as they are.

Excellent.

I will add that I'd be stupefied if it could be proven that Lemond didn't dope. Also, nosduh is on an disinformation rampage. It's clear that all the current Pro Tour riders are doped with possibly a few exceptions, possibly. And it's clear that doping was rampant during Lemond's era and to believe that he didn't partake in the very effective, although not as expedient, doping practices of the day and still won the Tour is as ludicrous as believing that any recent Grand Tour champion is clean.

There hasn't been a moral decline in sport. It's just that the drugs have become so much more effective. But don't believe that steroids and testosterone treatments over time didn't create champions in the pre-EPO era. And to believe that the clean could somehow beat the doped during Lemond's time in the saddle is equally as preposterous as believing that a clean athlete can win a Grande Tour or a world cup today.

Lemond likely didn't use EPO, but he doped. If there were a way to prove it, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts. Idol worshipers get tangled in believing that a "good guy" who's also a champion wouldn't dope. "He beat cancer for crying out loud."

Look, find a way to cope. Doping is a prerequisite for participating at the top level of sport. The athletes who would be clean don't dope and so they are not there competing. All the "good guy" champions who deny doping are frauds and are huge in perpetuating the situation.

Camazind had it right. When faced with a positive he retired with no comment. That says it all.

If they're in the Pro Tour there's almost no chance that they're not on some form of dopage.

helmutRoole2 said:

There hasn't been a moral decline in sport. It's just that the drugs have become so much more effective.

...and more available.

rob of the og said:

Who passed all their drugs tests? David Millar, Ivan Basso, Raimundo Rumsas, Jörg Jaschke, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Tony Rominger, Evgeny Berzin, Alejandro Valverde, Lance Armstrong... you get the idea. I was going to say Jan Ullrich, but of course he failed the iq test for amphetamines once. Even Pantani never actually failed a drugs test.

What he said.

Also, don't forget Frankie Andreu, who confessed to using EPO during the 1999 Tour, riding as team captain on Postal. He never tested positive (of course, they didn't have an EPO test in '99). David Millar only confessed to using EPO in 2001 and 2003 after the police raided his room in 2004 and found syringes. He never tested positive. Ullrick and Basso were clearly doping using (at a minimum) transfusions (and if you believe Basso's "attempted doping" line than you are lost). They never tested positive. And of course, there's Johan Museeuw, who never tested positive, then was busted big time shortly after he retired, when the police had recorded phone conversations with his doctor talking about EPO masking agents. He then confessed. Kind of.

I'm still baffled by people trashing Lemond (and by the way, Andy Hampsten has the exact same opinions, just not as vocal). He speaks out against doping and how the sport is being ruined, and people call him pathetic?

helmutRoole2 said:

Also, nosduh is on an disinformation rampage

Just giving my opinion on a public forum helmut. I could be wrong, I could be right. Neither of us will ever really know. Not trying to spread disinformation. Discussing it with others. I am very interested in this case and want to chat about it with people. If you think I am wrong, prove it to me without being insulting.

Thanks.

kennf said:

I'm still baffled by people trashing Lemond (and by the way, Andy Hampsten has the exact same opinions, just not as vocal). He speaks out against doping and how the sport is being ruined, and people call him pathetic?

.....I'll think you'll find its the American way.... take a look at Bush and WMD'S. Later to find there were none but people couldn't speak out against it.... says a lot for the country as a whole. Fast forward 10 years when we all find out Armstrong to Hincapie to Landi doped and LeMond didn't... what will we think then ?

nosduh said:

To believe Armstrong doped you have to believe the system is HORRIBLY flawed. You can't be as tested as he is and get away with it unless the testing is innacurate.

Wow. I am speechless. I am without speech. Wow. Bobke step aside. We have a new winner. The most clueless person here.

Do you actually know anything at all about cycling and doping? Anything? Do you even follow the sport?

When you make a mind boggling stupid assertion like that you have zero credibility.