Groin Muscles and Massage - Apparently Not!



"mossrite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Tiffany Yes you can access the psoas just around the
> region of the inguinal ligament, (lower left and right
> quadrant of the abdomen). Palpate the ligament with the
> thumb, forefingers resting on glut minimus.
If
> you move just below the ligament and lateral till you feel
> the wing of the illium then hook your thumb slightly into
> the fossa and apply
perpendicular
> pressure you can perform golgi tendon release and relax a
> taut psoas. As poster George has suggested, it is VERY
> tender work, intensely painful. The technique I was
> referring to as an alternative is origin/insertion
work
> where fingertip pressure/circular fingertip massage on the
> attachment will sometimes relax a muscle as well. This can
> be done with the client supine and leg in figure four
> (faber) to access the lesser trochanter (where the
> illiopsoas attaches). Like I said earlier, it is a very
> sensitive area and specific client
consent
> should be obtained for this treatment.
>
My regular CMT (she owns a business with 4-5 other
therapists working for her) did both psoas (lower back pain)
and scalene (to relieve ulnar nerve pressure) work on me at
my request. She has a rather creative marketing take on
this: she has a box of little, inexpensive toys labeled "for
being good" that she lets people select from when they are
in for a heavy duty therapeutic massage. It does evoke a
laugh from most people. No, it isn't pleasant to have these
muscles worked on but it sure makes me feel MUCH better.
 
Hey.... I have a longer second toe.

Wait..... longer then what? :)

T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a longer
> second toe?
>
> Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > That brings up another question, sort of. These groin
> > muscles are like steel cables to the touch with even the
> > slightest "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is
> > one of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> >
> > Marty
>
 
Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
second toe in massage school?

Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
>
> Wait..... longer then what? :)
>
> T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a longer
> > second toe?
> >
> > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message ne-
> > ws:[email protected]...
> >
> > > That brings up another question, sort of. These groin
> > > muscles are like steel cables to the touch with even
> > > the slightest "stretch" taking place. Is this normal
> > > or is one of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> > >
> > > Marty
> > >
> >
>
 
yeah but I forget. Seriously, I remember talk of it but
can't for the life of me remember. Refresh my memory.

T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> second toe in
massage
> school?
>
> Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> >
> > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> >
> > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > longer second toe?
> > >
> > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]
> > > m...
> > >
> > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > groin muscles are
like
> > > > steel cables to the touch with even the slightest
> > > > "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one of
> > > > the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> > > >
> > > > Marty
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
yes. I'm not haulin' out my books tonight but doesn't it
have something to do with collapsed arches.. we were told
it's akin to "skating thru life".. and can cause lower back
trouble eventually.. . tell me more.. I'm all eyes!

Mj (speaking out of turn, sorry Tiff I'm really curious is
all) "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> second toe in
massage
> school?
>
> Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> >
> > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> >
> > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > longer second toe?
> > >
> > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]
> > > m...
> > >
> > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > groin muscles are
like
> > > > steel cables to the touch with even the slightest
> > > > "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one of
> > > > the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> > > >
> > > > Marty
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
Refreshing your memory may not be something I can do. Ginko
biloba and Vitamin B Complex might help, though. But I can
remind you of speculation. The longer second toe is called
the "Greek Toe" after the model for Michelangelo's statue of
"David". Foot is like a tripod, with the heel and both ends
of the metatarsal arch being the elements of the base.
Person comes down on the heel, rolls to the front of the
foot, pushes off for the next step with the big toe. (Notice
how I'm using all those technical terms?) But suppose the
second toe is longer than the first. Instead of being a three-
point, it becomes a two-point along the center axis of the
foot, with the second toe having to bear more of the load.
Even if the second toe is exactly as long as the first,
there is more padding on the first. So in order to try to
put the load where it belongs, or to simply take the load
off areas that are ill-suited to it, the foot can be
pronated, etc. So it is nice to check the wear patterns on
the bottom of a person's shoe. Or simply expect to see
callus at the base of the second toe. See a bunion? Big toe
is trying to help. Fallen and widened metatarsal arch to
enhance contact surface, toes bent to enable better downward
pressure, metatarsalgia, etc. But besides all that, in order
to make those things happen, some of the muscles are
probably working overtime. If there are corns, the muscles
along the inner aspect of the leg may well be due for extra
attention. That sort of thing. After all, if you walk on
ice, or have an unsteady stance, you'll also likely be
walking with a more stiff-legged gait. So your hip is going
to have to be doing inappropriate stuff. Reason that high
heels make the wearer's butt movement more prominant, and
the back of the legs will be tight (notice how I kept from
naming those muscles?) So with the hip muscles working
inappropriately, same for the legs, and the feet, don't you
think it would be swell to give the "Longer Second Toe"
person the assumption that from the psoas on down, things
are gonna need a little extra attention? Shucks, anything
south of the navel, fore and aft, gets extra attention
because of it. Now that sounds like something that got
mentioned in school, doesn't it?

Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> yeah but I forget. Seriously, I remember talk of it but
> can't for the life of me remember. Refresh my memory.
>
> T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> > Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> > second toe in
> massage
> > school?
> >
> > Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> > >
> > > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> > >
> > > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > > longer second toe?
> > > >
> > > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]
> > > > om...
> > > >
> > > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > > groin muscles are
> like
> > > > > steel cables to the touch with even the slightest
> > > > > "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one
> > > > > of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> > > > >
> > > > > Marty
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
Skating through life is an excellent analogy, as my response
to Tiffany indicates. I wish I had read yours before I
responded to hers, as I'd never heard it put quite that way.
I usually use the analogy of walking carefully on ice, but
that seems a rather transient condition, rather than your
description. I like that.

Mj Hess <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> yes. I'm not haulin' out my books tonight but doesn't it
> have something
to
> do with collapsed arches.. we were told it's akin to
> "skating thru life".. and can cause lower back trouble
> eventually.. . tell me more.. I'm all
eyes!
>
> Mj (speaking out of turn, sorry Tiff I'm really curious is
> all) "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> > Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> > second toe in
> massage
> > school?
> >
> > Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> > >
> > > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> > >
> > > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > > longer second toe?
> > > >
> > > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]
> > > > om...
> > > >
> > > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > > groin muscles are
> like
> > > > > steel cables to the touch with even the slightest
> > > > > "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one
> > > > > of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?
> > > > >
> > > > > Marty
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
"Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Refreshing your memory may not be something I can do.
> Ginko biloba and Vitamin B Complex might help, though. But
> I can remind you of speculation. The longer second toe is
> called the "Greek Toe" after the model for Michelangelo's
> statue of "David". Foot is like a tripod, with the heel
> and both ends of the metatarsal arch being the elements of
> the base. Person comes down on the heel, rolls to
the
> front of the foot, pushes off for the next step with the
> big toe. (Notice how I'm using all those technical terms?)
> But suppose the second toe is longer than the first.
> Instead of being a three-point, it becomes a two-point
> along the center axis of the foot,
with
> the second toe having to bear more of the load. Even if
> the second toe is exactly as long as the first, there is
> more padding on the first. So in order to try to put the
> load where it belongs, or to simply take the load off
> areas that are ill-suited to it, the foot can be
> pronated, etc.
So
> it is nice to check the wear patterns on the bottom of a
> person's shoe. Or simply expect to see callus at the base
> of the second toe. See a bunion?
Big
> toe is trying to help. Fallen and widened metatarsal arch
> to enhance
contact
> surface, toes bent to enable better downward pressure,
> metatarsalgia, etc. But besides all that, in order to make
> those things happen, some of the muscles are probably
> working overtime. If there are corns, the muscles
along
> the inner aspect of the leg may well be due for extra
> attention. That sort of thing. After all, if you walk on
> ice, or have an unsteady stance,
you'll
> also likely be walking with a more stiff-legged gait. So
> your hip is going to have to be doing inappropriate
> stuff. Reason that high heels make the wearer's butt
> movement more prominant, and the back of the legs will be
> tight (notice how I kept from naming those muscles?) So
> with the hip muscles working inappropriately, same for
> the legs, and
the
> feet, don't you think it would be swell to give the
> "Longer Second Toe" person the assumption that from the
> psoas on down, things are gonna need a little extra
> attention? Shucks, anything south of the navel, fore and
> aft, gets extra attention because of it. Now that sounds
> like something that got mentioned in school, doesn't it?
>

No, we talked muscles in class. :)

I have no callus or bunions..... but I have a longer
second toe. But on the typical person I see everything
below the belly button needs work due to poor posture, bad
shoes, working out but not stretching, ect. I can't say I
analyzed the toe.

T
 
it is called a Morton,( sign of intellegence ) oops
spelled it wrong.

T.C. D "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
news:[email protected]...
> Refreshing your memory may not be something I can do.
> Ginko biloba and Vitamin B Complex might help, though. But
> I can remind you of speculation. The longer second toe is
> called the "Greek Toe" after the model for Michelangelo's
> statue of "David". Foot is like a tripod, with the heel
> and both ends of the metatarsal arch being the elements of
> the base. Person comes down on the heel, rolls to
the
> front of the foot, pushes off for the next step with the
> big toe. (Notice how I'm using all those technical terms?)
> But suppose the second toe is longer than the first.
> Instead of being a three-point, it becomes a two-point
> along the center axis of the foot,
with
> the second toe having to bear more of the load. Even if
> the second toe is exactly as long as the first, there is
> more padding on the first. So in order to try to put the
> load where it belongs, or to simply take the load off
> areas that are ill-suited to it, the foot can be
> pronated, etc.
So
> it is nice to check the wear patterns on the bottom of a
> person's shoe. Or simply expect to see callus at the base
> of the second toe. See a bunion?
Big
> toe is trying to help. Fallen and widened metatarsal arch
> to enhance
contact
> surface, toes bent to enable better downward pressure,
> metatarsalgia, etc. But besides all that, in order to make
> those things happen, some of the muscles are probably
> working overtime. If there are corns, the muscles
along
> the inner aspect of the leg may well be due for extra
> attention. That sort of thing. After all, if you walk on
> ice, or have an unsteady stance,
you'll
> also likely be walking with a more stiff-legged gait. So
> your hip is going to have to be doing inappropriate
> stuff. Reason that high heels make the wearer's butt
> movement more prominant, and the back of the legs will be
> tight (notice how I kept from naming those muscles?) So
> with the hip muscles working inappropriately, same for
> the legs, and
the
> feet, don't you think it would be swell to give the
> "Longer Second Toe" person the assumption that from the
> psoas on down, things are gonna need a little extra
> attention? Shucks, anything south of the navel, fore and
> aft, gets extra attention because of it. Now that sounds
> like something that got mentioned in school, doesn't it?
>
> Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > yeah but I forget. Seriously, I remember talk of it but
> > can't for the
life
> > of me remember. Refresh my memory.
> >
> > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message news:[email protected]...
> > > Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> > > second toe in
> > massage
> > > school?
> > >
> > > Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> > > >
> > > > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> > > >
> > > > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > > > longer second
toe?
> > > > >
> > > > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > > > message news:[email protected]
> > > > > .prodigy.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > > > groin muscles
are
> > like
> > > > > > steel cables to the touch with even the
> > > > > > slightest "stretch"
taking
> > > > > > place. Is this normal or is one of the reasons I
> > > > > > have such poor flexibility?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marty
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
Thanks Michael..

yes, we covered that toward the end of our Clinical II
class.. (lower body stuff).. thanks! I loved your
explanation and great info you posted to Tiffany.. I'm gonna
hang onto that.. thanks again!

mj "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> Skating through life is an excellent analogy, as my
> response to Tiffany indicates. I wish I had read yours
> before I responded to hers, as I'd
never
> heard it put quite that way. I usually use the analogy
> of walking
carefully
> on ice, but that seems a rather transient condition,
> rather than your description. I like that.
>
> Mj Hess <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > yes. I'm not haulin' out my books tonight but doesn't it
> > have something
> to
> > do with collapsed arches.. we were told it's akin to
> > "skating thru
life"..
> > and can cause lower back trouble eventually.. . tell me
> > more.. I'm all
> eyes!
> >
> > Mj (speaking out of turn, sorry Tiff I'm really curious
> > is all) "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote
> > in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Did they tell you about the significance of the longer
> > > second toe in
> > massage
> > > school?
> > >
> > > Tiffany <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Hey.... I have a longer second toe.
> > > >
> > > > Wait..... longer then what? :)
> > > >
> > > > T "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a
> > > > > longer second
toe?
> > > > >
> > > > > Marty Alias <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > > > message news:[email protected]
> > > > > .prodigy.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > > That brings up another question, sort of. These
> > > > > > groin muscles
are
> > like
> > > > > > steel cables to the touch with even the
> > > > > > slightest "stretch"
taking
> > > > > > place. Is this normal or is one of the reasons I
> > > > > > have such poor flexibility?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marty
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
George wrote:
> "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
>>abdominal massage, and
>
> I
>
>>have indicated its importance. However, since I do sports
>>massage every so often, maybe I am more sensitized. But
>>don't expect psoas work unless it's indicated, since most
>>massage tends to be relaxation instead of true
>>therapeutic, IMO.
>>
>
>
> You sure got that one right. I think most clients probably
> wouldn't come back if you spent the hour doing deep work
> on the scalenes and psoas! (Two areas I need most often.)
> I had massage done for over 5 years (trying different
> therapists) for the same problem (also saw an MD and a
> chiropractor for it) UNTIL I finally ran across a massage
> therapist who went right to the problem area (psoas) and
> fixed the problem for me for several YEARS.
>
> In reference to a couple of the other posters on this
> thread: If you do

> mind!!! <VBG> It is hardly relaxing or likely to "set the
> mood", so to speak.
>
>
I agree with you George.

I played soccer for many years and chronic problems with the
adductor(s), which put pressure on my hamstrings and lower
back. I also tore my psoas and other muscles in my abdominal
area. (At one point my injuries sidelined me for 8 months)

I had built up a relationship with my physio/MT and she had
no fear on working that area. I must say that the treatment
is absolutely excruciating. Any sensuality or erotica goes
hurtling out the window very very quickly.

If I have gone to another MT in my afterlife for a tune up,
as I still suffer from soreness and lack of flexibility, and
have mentioned to the MT the areas that need attention, the
reaction is almost always sceptical. So I don't bother.
 
It is quite simple to find out if it is indicated.. Do a
Thomas Test.

Thx G's: Douglas

Good to see the Clinical practitioners in the crowd.
"Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:FrUqc.5899$l%[email protected]...
> But it does call for an initial trust, especially if it's
> a female client and a masseur. Assuming the 'figure of 4'
> leg position can cause her to
feel
> rather...exposed. But the massage relationship is one of
> trust. If you can't go with that, better to be flipping
> hamburgers.
>
> Ed <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ENRqc.35564$6f5.3607525@attbi_s54...
> > LOL, we are learning to work on this area right now in
> > school!! I
agree,

> > uneducated client!! Same with internal windchannels.
> > "George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Michael Baugh" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
> > > > abdominal
massage,
> > and
> > > I
> > > > have indicated its importance. However, since I do
> > > > sports massage
> every
> > so
> > > > often, maybe I am more sensitized. But don't expect
> > > > psoas work
unless
> > it's
> > > > indicated, since most massage tends to be relaxation
> > > > instead of true therapeutic, IMO.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You sure got that one right. I think most clients
> > > probably wouldn't
> come
> > > back if you spent the hour doing deep work on the
> > > scalenes and psoas!
> > (Two
> > > areas I need most often.) I had massage done for over
> > > 5 years (trying different therapists) for the same
> > > problem (also saw an MD and a chiropractor for it)
> > > UNTIL I finally ran across a massage therapist
who
> > went
> > > right to the problem area (psoas) and fixed the
> > > problem for me for
> several
> > > YEARS.
> > >
> > > In reference to a couple of the other posters on this
> > > thread: If you
do

his
> > > mind!!! <VBG> It is hardly relaxing or likely to "set
> > > the mood", so
to
> > > speak.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
 
Yep. And I find it rather amazing that so many people with
low back pain have not had psoas work done, when it has been
clearly indicated. It's as though the MT just kinda blanked
out on that particular phase of the curiculum.

douglas <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is quite simple to find out if it is indicated.. Do a
> Thomas Test.
 
Michael Baugh wrote:
>
> Yep. And I find it rather amazing that so many people with
> low back pain have not had psoas work done, when it has
> been clearly indicated. It's as though the MT just kinda
> blanked out on that particular phase of the curiculum.

If you don't run across it very often, it's easy to forget.
Many times I find the QL and the spinals are tight in
someone with lower back pain.

sue
 
With an obese client, the psoas are more difficult to
access. I suspect that it's a 'not looking for it, won't
find it' situation.

suzee <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Michael Baugh wrote:
> >
> > Yep. And I find it rather amazing that so many people
> > with low back pain have not had psoas work done, when it
> > has been clearly indicated. It's
as
> > though the MT just kinda blanked out on that particular
> > phase of the curiculum.
>
> If you don't run across it very often, it's easy to
> forget. Many times I find the QL and the spinals are tight
> in someone with lower back pain.
>
> sue
 
Michael Baugh wrote:
>
> With an obese client, the psoas are more difficult to
> access. I suspect that it's a 'not looking for it, won't
> find it' situation.

Who said anything about obese clients? And what if the
source of the back pain *is* in the QLs and spinals?

sue

> suzee <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Michael Baugh wrote:
> > >
> > > Yep. And I find it rather amazing that so many people
> > > with low back pain have not had psoas work done, when
> > > it has been clearly indicated. It's
> as
> > > though the MT just kinda blanked out on that
> > > particular phase of the curiculum.
> >
> > If you don't run across it very often, it's easy to
> > forget. Many times I find the QL and the spinals are
> > tight in someone with lower back pain.
> >
> > sue
 
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