Group ride vs. alone

[koger]

Hi guys

I've been doing a long and quite hard group ride. The ride consisted of 5 intervals: 3x15 min. and 2x2-3 minutes. The ride was 3.5 hours with lots of recovery time mostly L2.
The 3 long intervals are quite hard ranging from L4 to L6, the average is L5, the 2 short intervals are L6.

My question is, from a fitness perspective, would it be better to skip the group ride and train alone. Where I could focus on keeping the long intervals in L4? and then another day, do the a session combined with L5 and L6 intervals.
I'm certainly able to push myself a lot harder, when doing the long intervals with the group than I would be by myself. But I'm not sure if this is a good thing. One of the advices from Joe Friels training bible that I've been trying to follow, is that I should always be able to do more after a training session. After this ride, I'm at least as tired as I would be after a race. TSS is higher than most of my races.

Since I'm between spring and fall season, I'm not going to do a race for 2 months. When thinking of it this way, it would perhaps make sense to use this as a race intensity workout, even though it doesn't quite follow the pattern of a typical race.

What do thing would be the best?

Thanks a lot in advance

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...My question is, from a fitness perspective, would it be better to skip the group ride and train alone. ...

Depends on what you're trying to train. For Tempo/SST/L4 work I strongly prefer riding alone. Group rides never accumulate as much time in level, and definitely not as much sustained (that is unbroken) time in level as solo efforts.

For L6/L7 work group rides can provide a lot of motivation and race simulation that's hard to get alone. Jumps from speed followed by digging deep when you're caught and counterattacked is hard to simulate when riding solo and it's fun to ride fast with others.

It's a bit odd that you're getting higher TSS on group rides. Are you riding too easily when you ride alone? I typically get higher TSS on a multi hour Tempo ride than I do on our typical Tuesday night or weekend hammerfest. I'll hit higher peak power numbers and better short interval MMP results on spirited group rides but a few hours of steady Tempo/SST usually gives me more TSS.

Since you aren't planning to race in the near future I'd opt for more solo rides and fewer group rides unless you're a newer racer and need the group riding experience. I'd think about getting back to the hammerfest rides as races draw near and you want to polish your top end speed and power.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[koger]

Thanks for your answer dave.

It's a bit odd that you're getting higher TSS on group rides. Are you riding too easily when you ride alone?

Maybe I'm when I'm doing L4, I ride for 2 hours and typically do 2 x 20 minuttes and L2 the rest of the time. Do you think that's to easy? I see two reasons for the high TSS, longer duration and the L5 and L6 intensity, which make the TSS increase fast.

 

[mullerrj]

My question is, from a fitness perspective, would it be better to skip the group ride and train alone. Where I could focus on keeping the long intervals in L4? and then another day, do the a session combined with L5 and L6 intervals.

Good question. Personally, I think it depends on the group ride. If I go on a group ride with the fastest riders in my area, where it is non-stop...I usually get dropped (later in the ride)...but I get an AWESOME workout. Just last week, I had a 5 min, 20 min and 60 min peak power output on a group ride. Other group rides I go on are too much stop and go...and NOT really much of a fitness benefit. They're more social. Hey, you want to keep it fun- right? The REALLY tough stuff, L5/L6 workouts I do in my basement on my Cycleops trainer...for various reasons: cooler in my basement in this 90F heat, easier to obtain a constant power output, etc. So, I think a good healthy mix of both (group and solo) will keep you motivated (which is important) and fit. Cheers Rob

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Maybe I'm when I'm doing L4, I ride for 2 hours and typically do 2 x 20 minuttes and L2 the rest of the time. Do you think that's to easy? ....

If I'm only doing 40 minutes of L4 I won't do a 2 hour ride. Sounds like a lot of filler, do you at least ride some SST during that ride? Personally if I'm only doing a 2x20 L4 workout I'd get in about an hour to an hour and fifteen of riding including warmup, cooldown and some rest between the efforts. In a two hour L4 ride I'd try to accumulate an hour or so in level. In a two hour SST/Tempo ride I'd try to at least an hour and a half in level.

One thing power training and Lydiar/Coggan style SST training has taught me is to minimize junk miles. Sure a bit of warmup, cooldown and rest is smart but not all that much and the rest of the time I'm on my bike I want to be training.

I agree the high end stuff in group rides can drive up the TSS relative to the length of those rides(IOW, it drives up the IF), but I still get more TSS on my solo SST/Tempo/L4 days but I rarely do 2x20 and call it quits and I definitely don't pad focused workouts with easy miles. I'd rather be home resting or taking care of other obligations than riding at a level with limited training benefit. I rarely schedule pure L2 days, but if I do they're gonna be much longer rides and not a bit of filler around a structured L4 workout. Consider the overall intensity and training benefitt of the time you're spending on your bike.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Watoni]

If I'm only doing 40 minutes of L4 I won't do a 2 hour ride. Sounds like a lot of filler, do you at least ride some SST during that ride? Personally if I'm only doing a 2x20 L4 workout I'd get in about an hour to an hour and fifteen of riding including warmup, cooldown and some rest between the efforts. In a two hour L4 ride I'd try to accumulate an hour or so in level. In a two hour SST/Tempo ride I'd try to at least an hour and a half in level.

One thing power training and Lydiar/Coggan style SST training has taught me is to minimize junk miles. Sure a bit of warmup, cooldown and rest is smart but not all that much and the rest of the time I'm on my bike I want to be training.

I agree the high end stuff in group rides can drive up the TSS relative to the length of those rides(IOW, it drives up the IF), but I still get more TSS on my solo SST/Tempo/L4 days but I rarely do 2x20 and call it quits and I definitely don't pad focused workouts with easy miles. I'd rather be home resting or taking care of other obligations than riding at a level with limited training benefit. I rarely schedule pure L2 days, but if I do they're gonna be much longer rides and not a bit of filler around a structured L4 workout. Consider the overall intensity and training benefitt of the time you're spending on your bike.

Good luck,
-Dave

L2 is likely too easy, but I honestly end up in a similar situation.

I do most of my L4 intervals on climbs that are 20-30 minutes. One of those not a recommended descent, so I do a bit of a loop to get back to the base of the climb, which is a great descent and helps me work on those skills.

On a 1.5 hour ride I probably do 43-50 minutes of L4, 15 total minutes of riding to/from home to climb, and the rest on the descent or loop. I nomally end up with an IF of 0.88-0.93, but the TSS is not massive.

I need to get some more sustained SST rides or just go SST repeats until I drop!

 

[koger]

Thanks again for your answer, Dave. I have actually made another post where I ask for advice for my current training program. Would you mind have a look at it here http://www.cyclingforums.com/t465956.html. I'm sure there are something that you would have done different

If I'm only doing 40 minutes of L4 I won't do a 2 hour ride. Sounds like a lot of filler, do you at least ride some SST during that ride? Personally if I'm only doing a 2x20 L4 workout I'd get in about an hour to an hour and fifteen of riding including warmup, cooldown and some rest between the efforts. In a two hour L4 ride I'd try to accumulate an hour or so in level. In a two hour SST/Tempo ride I'd try to at least an hour and a half in level.

One thing power training and Lydiar/Coggan style SST training has taught me is to minimize junk miles. Sure a bit of warmup, cooldown and rest is smart but not all that much and the rest of the time I'm on my bike I want to be training.

I agree the high end stuff in group rides can drive up the TSS relative to the length of those rides(IOW, it drives up the IF), but I still get more TSS on my solo SST/Tempo/L4 days but I rarely do 2x20 and call it quits and I definitely don't pad focused workouts with easy miles. I'd rather be home resting or taking care of other obligations than riding at a level with limited training benefit. I rarely schedule pure L2 days, but if I do they're gonna be much longer rides and not a bit of filler around a structured L4 workout. Consider the overall intensity and training benefitt of the time you're spending on your bike.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[postal_bag]

Hi guys

I've been doing a long and quite hard group ride. The ride consisted of 5 intervals: 3x15 min. and 2x2-3 minutes. The ride was 3.5 hours with lots of recovery time mostly L2.
The 3 long intervals are quite hard ranging from L4 to L6, the average is L5, the 2 short intervals are L6.

My question is, from a fitness perspective, would it be better to skip the group ride and train alone. Where I could focus on keeping the long intervals in L4? and then another day, do the a session combined with L5 and L6 intervals.
I'm certainly able to push myself a lot harder, when doing the long intervals with the group than I would be by myself. But I'm not sure if this is a good thing. One of the advices from Joe Friels training bible that I've been trying to follow, is that I should always be able to do more after a training session. After this ride, I'm at least as tired as I would be after a race. TSS is higher than most of my races.

Since I'm between spring and fall season, I'm not going to do a race for 2 months. When thinking of it this way, it would perhaps make sense to use this as a race intensity workout, even though it doesn't quite follow the pattern of a typical race.

What do thing would be the best?

Thanks a lot in advance

My regular group ride is usually 80-100+ riders strong. The first hour is spent puttering along at ~90w until we reach the city limits. I've started leaving home 15' late, so that I can ride tempo until I catch up to the pack.

The next hour is fast, slightly rolling, and very chaotic. I may average 280-300w, with an NP of 340-355w (IF ~1.00)

Within this hour, I usually end up with 20' @ ~1.1 IF, 10' @ ~1.15 IF, and 5' @ ~1.17 IF

There is a break at the ~2 hr point, followed by another 30-40' of ~0.95 IF, and then the last hour is spent puttering back downtown.

At the end of the day I have an IF of ~0.80, and a TSS of 270-280 for the ~4.5 hrs (maybe a type of NP busting ride, but I have ridden ~5.5 hrs, averaging 75% FTP). I include all the "junk" with every ride.

I do this ride Saturday and Sunday, if there is no race. I take Monday and Friday off. Then I ride solo, a mix of tempo, SST, and L6 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. This is good for 1000+ TSS per week.

If I miss the group ride, my race fitness suffers.