Grudge Match Time: P-38 Vs. Bacchetta Giro

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Cletus Lee, Apr 14, 2003.

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  1. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).

    I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. I had equipped my P-38
    Voyager for touring and commuting And when the Giro showed up last September, it was not long
    before it was similarly decked out in rack(s) fenders and headlights. It seemed that each bike
    managed to pull about equal time commuting and on Saturdays riding point for the DFs with my usual
    Saturday ride gang.

    Before adding fenders, rack(s) kickstands and the like, the Giro out weighed the Voyager by about 6
    lbs. I had an opportunity to get some nice wheels built with velocity rims and Chris King Hubs. A
    thought these might make an improvement in the Giro, especially if I mounted something lighter than
    the OEM Kenda Kwest Well, the Chris King Hub did not fit inside the Giro fork, so it ended up on
    the Voyager.

    Well, with both bikes similarly equipped, there did not seem to be much apparent difference on my
    Saturday 'go-fast' rides. My Saturday rides with the 'gang' started out as a 30 mile loop in the
    city center of Houston. Even with Stop lights, I can easily manage a 16mph average. And now I have
    extended the loop to get in a decent 55 mile ride.

    A few weeks back, I opted to turn the Voyager into a speedster until I have to turn it back into a
    touring bike. So, I removed the rear rack and fenders and mounted a pair of Schwalbe Stelvios. (The
    Giro runs Vredestein S-Licks). The first Saturday in April I put the Giro through the usual rund for
    59 miles and managed a 16.58 mph average. Last Saturday under what might have been more favorable
    wind conditions, I took the Voyager through the same loop and with a slightly different end leg
    managed 57.3 miles and a 16.6 mph average.

    I'm still looking for a definitive answer. I may have to take both bikes to the velodrome.

    Any comments?

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
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  2. Stratrider

    Stratrider Guest

    Cletus, I recall some years ago you had a Stratus? How do you think the Stratus would compare to
    Giro and the P38 when it comes to speed?

    Jim Reilly Reading, PA
     
  3. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Cletus, I recall some years ago you had a Stratus? How do you think the Stratus would compare to
    > Giro and the P38 when it comes to speed?

    Both will out climb the Stratus. Since 1999, my highest avg speed for a ride was 18.6 mph on the
    Stratus. My highest for the Voyager has been 17.5 (for a century last July). And I am seeing
    routinely > 16.5 for both the Voyager and Giro. On any day, I can match speed with either the Giro
    or the Voyager. "With-in the Statistical mean" I'd rate all three even except for hills.

    For the money, the Giro buys you more speed over the P-38 but both seem to be fairly evenly matched.
    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  4. Pat O'Malley

    Pat O'Malley Guest

    Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
    >
    > I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. Any comments?

    I have a similar dilemma. Because of the recession I have felt that it is a politically incorrect
    sign of bourgeous conspicuous consumption (plus my wife complains about it!) to own 2 bents-- in
    addition to 2 DF's. I am vacillating between selling, or keeping, my RANS V2. My other bent is a
    P-38. For me the question is not speed, but comfort. The RANS seat is definitely better, and the
    longer wheel base is definitely easier to control. I have had both bikes over a year, with about
    1000 miles on each. Average speeds are negligable betweeen the two bikes. The P-38 being a tad
    faster, and definetly a better hill climber. But climbing hills ( quickly) is NOT a reason for
    going bent! My 36 pound city commute bike (DF) is a better climber than both bents. So, I guess you
    have to consider what is more important. Speed? Comfort? Or some other consideration?
     
  5. John W

    John W Guest

    Since you ride in a flat windy area you may want to add the Zzipper fairing that Lightning sells to
    your Voyager. http://www.lightningbikes.com/accessor.htm#ZZIPPER%20FAIRING Should give you at least
    a 1 mph speed boost.

    John

    "Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
    >
    > I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. I
    had equipped my P-38
    > Voyager for touring and commuting And when the Giro showed up last
    September, it was not long
    > before it was similarly decked out in rack(s) fenders and headlights. It
    seemed that each bike
    > managed to pull about equal time commuting and on Saturdays riding point
    for the DFs with my
    > usual Saturday ride gang.
    >
    > Before adding fenders, rack(s) kickstands and the like, the Giro out
    weighed the Voyager by
    > about 6 lbs. I had an opportunity to get some nice wheels built with
    velocity rims and Chris
    > King Hubs. A thought these might make an improvement in the Giro,
    especially if I mounted
    > something lighter than the OEM Kenda Kwest Well, the Chris King Hub did
    not fit inside the
    > Giro fork, so it ended up on the Voyager.
    >
    > Well, with both bikes similarly equipped, there did not seem to be much
    apparent difference on
    > my Saturday 'go-fast' rides. My Saturday rides with the 'gang' started
    out as a 30 mile loop
    > in the city center of Houston. Even with Stop lights, I can easily manage
    a 16mph average. And
    > now I have extended the loop to get in a decent 55 mile ride.
    >
    > A few weeks back, I opted to turn the Voyager into a speedster until I
    have to turn it back
    > into a touring bike. So, I removed the rear rack and fenders and mounted
    a pair of Schwalbe
    > Stelvios. (The Giro runs Vredestein S-Licks). The first Saturday in April
    I put the Giro
    > through the usual rund for 59 miles and managed a 16.58 mph average. Last
    Saturday under what
    > might have been more favorable wind conditions, I took the Voyager through
    the same loop and
    > with a slightly different end leg managed 57.3 miles and a 16.6 mph
    average.
    >
    > I'm still looking for a definitive answer. I may have to take both bikes
    to the velodrome.
    >
    > Any comments?
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  6. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Since you ride in a flat windy area you may want to add the Zzipper fairing that Lightning sells
    > to your Voyager. http://www.lightningbikes.com/accessor.htm#ZZIPPER%20FAIRING Should give you at
    > least a 1 mph speed boost.

    My Lightning Voyager is a F-40 (the fully faired version of the P-38) It has a Nosecone and until
    recently had a lycra full fairing cover.

    Experiments with the nosecone alone added no measurable speed boost.

    At this point, I am trying to compare 'apples to apples'

    Working on the fairing for the Lightning is another project.

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  7. Bandjhughes

    Bandjhughes Guest

    > Because of the recession I have felt that it is a politically incorrect sign of bourgeous
    > conspicuous consumption (plus my wife complains about it!) to own 2 bents-- in addition to 2
    > DF's. I am vacillating between selling, or keeping, my RANS V2. My other bent is a P-38.
    >

    I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes. I
    couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and two
    uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So the way
    I solved this crisis was to trade in her old 10-year-old clunker car and buy her a brand new car.
    Then I explain that the cost of my entire bike stable total doesn't come anywhere close to what I
    just spent on her new car. She loves the car hasn't mentioned anything since about my bikes. Heck I
    bet I can even get away with buying another bike (hummmmm now do I want a tandem (?), or maybe a
    trike(?), or a highracer, or a lowracer(?),....).

    BTW, I think buying bikes is a good way and perfectly politically correct way to help the country
    {and much of the world for that matter} get over the recession. At least that kind of thinking
    works for me!

    Brian V-Rex/Tailwind
     
  8. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <9e282e4.0304150907.3a21f3[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes. I
    > couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and two
    > uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So the
    > way I solved this crisis was to trade in her ...

    You could have stopped there and pointed this out to your wife as another option.

    I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along side
    _her_ car.

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  9. R2D2

    R2D2 New Member

    Joined:
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    Just imagine how much healthier the poulation and the planet would be with far more bikes, and far fewer cars.

    My wife has more bikes than I do (I keep buying them for her). She also rides 50% more miles than I do. Can't get her on a recumbent though. :(

    I just sold a "Comfort Cruiser DF" that I no longer rode (It was waaay uncomfortable). I sold my DF road bike when I bought my first 'bent (It was waaaaaaaaaaay uncomfortable). And I'm thinking of selling my DF Mountain Bike.

    All I really ride now is the Bacchetta Giro. It fits me to a "T" and is so comfortable that I'm afraid of falling asleep on it. It also handles like a dream, and is much better suited to the winding, hilly off-road trails that I ride every day than even the CLWB bikes (and this with skinny racing tires to boot!).

    As far as speed goes, the Giro is faster than the Rocket, V-Rex, and Tailwind (these are the only bents that I've put a lot of miles on).

    However, when I really want to go fast, I climb on my DF Klein MTB (with Conti Top Touring tires), and Go Go Go. It just explodes off the line and up hills. But alas, I can't go for more than 30 miles, cuz my back, butt, feet, wrists, and neck start killing me.

    Verdict: any 'bent travelling at any speed is still faster than than a DF going Zero MPH. :D
     
  10. Bandjhughes

    Bandjhughes Guest

    Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > I too had a very similar dilemma with my wife. She [mistakenly] believed I owned too many bikes.
    > > I couldn't understand what she was talking about. I only own four, two bents (SWB and C/LWB) and
    > > two uprights (road bike and MTB). I couldn't figure out which bike I was willing to give up. So
    > > the way I solved this crisis was to trade in her ...
    >
    > You could have stopped there and pointed this out to your wife as another option.
    >

    Dang, now you tell me. Why didn't I think of that? Just think of all the money I would haved saved
    by not buying her a new car! With that extra money I could have bought a brand new.....wait a
    second, I would have to subtract alimony....oh nevermind.
     
  11. direwolf

    direwolf Guest

    Hey all,

    When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.

    Bobby

    Cletus Lee wrote:

    > I must admit I have not followed the 'other' thread (yawn).
    >
    > I have been trying to determine which of my two bikes is the faster. I had equipped my P-38
    > Voyager for touring and commuting And when the Giro showed up last September, it was not long
    > before it was similarly decked out in rack(s) fenders and headlights. It seemed that each bike
    > managed to pull about equal time commuting and on Saturdays riding point for the DFs with my usual
    > Saturday ride gang.
    >
    > Before adding fenders, rack(s) kickstands and the like, the Giro out weighed the Voyager by about
    > 6 lbs. I had an opportunity to get some nice wheels built with velocity rims and Chris King Hubs.
    > A thought these might make an improvement in the Giro, especially if I mounted something lighter
    > than the OEM Kenda Kwest Well, the Chris King Hub did not fit inside the Giro fork, so it ended up
    > on the Voyager.
    >
    > Well, with both bikes similarly equipped, there did not seem to be much apparent difference on my
    > Saturday 'go-fast' rides. My Saturday rides with the 'gang' started out as a 30 mile loop in the
    > city center of Houston. Even with Stop lights, I can easily manage a 16mph average. And now I have
    > extended the loop to get in a decent 55 mile ride.
    >
    > A few weeks back, I opted to turn the Voyager into a speedster until I have to turn it back into a
    > touring bike. So, I removed the rear rack and fenders and mounted a pair of Schwalbe Stelvios.
    > (The Giro runs Vredestein S-Licks). The first Saturday in April I put the Giro through the usual
    > rund for 59 miles and managed a 16.58 mph average. Last Saturday under what might have been more
    > favorable wind conditions, I took the Voyager through the same loop and with a slightly different
    > end leg managed 57.3 miles and a 16.6 mph average.
    >
    > I'm still looking for a definitive answer. I may have to take both bikes to the velodrome.
    >
    > Any comments?
    >
    > --
    >
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  12. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Hey all,
    >
    > When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.
    >
    In your dreams...

    I have no reason to part with either.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  13. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Cletus Lee wrote:
    > ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along side
    > _her_ car.

    I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage or shed.

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
    Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000, B.O.B. Yak
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > Cletus Lee wrote:
    > > ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along
    > > side _her_ car.
    >
    > I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage
    > or shed.

    IIRC Tom, you are still single.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  15. Bandjhughes

    Bandjhughes Guest

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > Hey all,
    > >
    > > When you figger out which one is faster, sell me the other one for about $800.
    > >
    > In your dreams...
    >
    > I have no reason to part with either.

    Cletus, I hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you part with your LWB and replace it with a
    second SWB? In my simple mind it makes more sense to have one of each type.

    Brian V-Rex/Tailwind

    P.S. I'll give you $850
     
  16. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > Cletus, I hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you part with your LWB and replace it with a
    > second SWB? In my simple mind it makes more sense to have one of each type.
    >
    At 10,000 miles the Stratus was 'getting long of tooth'. I was needing to replace a lot of
    components, brakes, derailleurs, rear wheel and the paint was getting a little shabby and I was
    going to have to paint the frame if I wanted the bike to not start to do some major rusting.

    By the time I factored the costs of these maintenance items, it was not too far off the price of a
    new Bacchetta Giro. As far as I can tell there is no advantage in having a LWB. Especially if you
    are comfortable riding a SWB. With my first recumbent, I found the SWB to be a little too 'twitchy'
    in handling. After a year of LWB riding, I knew how to handle a recumbent and realized the 'twitchy'
    handling was PIO.

    I decided to devote the Voyager to speed and occassional tours that involve flying and make the Giro
    my Everyday go to work/tour bike. Unfortunately, I have found the Giro to be every it as fast as the
    Voyager. Hence my delima
    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  17. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    "Cletus D. Lee" wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >
    > > Cletus Lee wrote:
    > > > ... I on the other hand am limited to the number of bikes that will fit into the garage along
    > > > side _her_ car.
    > >
    > > I store/have stored my HPVs in the bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, etc., but never in a garage
    > > or shed.
    >
    > IIRC Tom, you are still single.

    Cletus,

    Start storing your bikes in the house - maybe then you will be single also. ;)

    Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  18. Jim C

    Jim C Guest

    Is one more comfortable than the other?

    "Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > I decided to devote the Voyager to speed and occassional tours that
    involve flying and make the
    > Giro my Everyday go to work/tour bike. Unfortunately, I have found the
    Giro to be every it as
    > fast as the Voyager. Hence my delima
    > --
    >
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  19. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Is one more comfortable than the other?

    The seat on the Voyager has a bar across the top that hits me at the base of the neck. I padded it
    with pipe insulation which helps. The seat pad on the Voyager was replaced early with a ThermaRest
    Statium seat. Since those two 'corrections' I do not have any problems with the Voyager. I did get
    R-butt on a century with it last July.

    I do not find one or the other more or less comfortable. The Voyager seat took some 'getting used
    to'. The Giro "Bacchetta" seat did not.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  20. Bill Anton

    Bill Anton Guest

    Hello Cletus,

    I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. Why else
    would an R-40 beat a lighter, higher BB P-38 up a hill? Since you're the same rider on both bikes,
    perhaps the differences in cycle design are dwarfed by the conditioning of the rider and the routine
    of commuting. I've found that I often don't use 100% of my muscles during a long ride, settling for
    a 16 MPH average or so...then within 5 miles of the house I find I still have enough left for a few
    25 MPH windsprints (second-wind-sprints?). It just seems to me that we tend to settle into a
    comfortable level of exertion for long rides. Also, in the flat Houston terrain you're not likely to
    pay that 6 pound weight penalty. Perhaps if you and a friend (of similar size and conditioning)
    squared-off for some freindly competition, switching mounts every so often, you'd find out for real
    which bike is faster. Too bad I'm now on the other side of Texas.

    BTW, yes I'm still single, and yes my R-40 "sleeps" next to my bed. Too much dust in the garage.

    Bill Anton Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > Is one more comfortable than the other?
    >
    > The seat on the Voyager has a bar across the top that hits me at the base of the neck. I padded it
    > with pipe insulation which helps. The seat pad on the Voyager was replaced early with a ThermaRest
    > Statium seat. Since those two 'corrections' I do not have any problems with the Voyager. I did get
    > R-butt on a century with it last July.
    >
    > I do not find one or the other more or less comfortable. The Voyager seat took some 'getting used
    > to'. The Giro "Bacchetta" seat did not.
     
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