Grudge Match Time: P-38 Vs. Bacchetta Giro

[Jon Meinecke]

On 24 Apr 2003 21:21:50 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote:

>Hello Cletus,
>
>I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. [...]

Cletus' engine sounds pretty well tuned, actually.

> [...] freindly competition [...] Too bad I'm now on the other side of Texas.

Llano Estacato, -- Lubbock? I grew up there.

The land of not many recumbents and few major hills. Wind, on the other hand, could make a low racer
really attractive.

The 34th street bike shop owner rides a recumbent and has a friendly shop cat.

I rode a loop out to Buffalo Lake when visiting last summer and found a few hills. A dragging brake
after a flat tire change made for a harder load on the engine. Heading east off the Caprock, now
that would preset a number of challenging climbs.

My son and I rode the western portion of the Caprock Canyons trailway a few years ago (me on a
BikeE). Fat tires are required, but its a beautiful ride. Don't know how my Tour Easy would handle
the loose sand part of the trail. Even with wide tires, the BikeE pulling a BOB trailer was a
challenge and the weeds were 'as tall as an elephant's eye' on parts of the trail.

Jon Meinecke

 

[Cletus Lee]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Hello Cletus,
>
> I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. Why else
> would an R-40 beat a lighter, higher BB P-38 up a hill? Since you're the same rider on both bikes,
> perhaps the differences in cycle design are dwarfed by the conditioning of the rider and the
> routine of commuting. I've found that I often don't use 100% of my muscles during a long ride,
> settling for a 16 MPH average or so...then within 5 miles of the house I find I still have enough
> left for a few 25 MPH windsprints (second-wind-sprints?). It just seems to me that we tend to
> settle into a comfortable level of exertion for long rides. Also, in the flat Houston terrain
> you're not likely to pay that 6 pound weight penalty. Perhaps if you and a friend (of similar size
> and conditioning) squared-off for some freindly competition, switching mounts every so often,
> you'd find out for real which bike is faster. Too bad I'm now on the other side of Texas.
>
> BTW, yes I'm still single, and yes my R-40 "sleeps" next to my bed. Too much dust in the garage.

Fr. Bill, Maybe you and your R-40 caught me on an off day. We only had one chance to square off and
I believe that was before I attempted MoM.

Maybe we need a rematch. Are there any hills in Lubbock? Any chance of us meeting up at the
Hotter'N Hell?

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

 

[Bill Anton]

I did not mean to imply that Cletus' engine was one cylder short. Quite the contrary, he always led
the pack on those 30-mile Saturday morning rides in Houston. No, what I was getting at is that we
tend to be creatures of habit, especially when riding solo in a non-competetive environment.
Theoretically, Cletus' P-38 should be faster than his Giro, but he says he doesn't seem to notice
any difference in average speed--go figure. The best test would be to measure directly how many
watts of power are required at a given speed, on a given terrain, with a given rider. Since most of
us do not have that sophisticated equipment to measure power output directly, the next best thing
would be two riders of similar build and conditioning, going head-to-head, and switching bikes every
so often to correct for one rider who may be a little stronger than the other.

I am surprised to learn about that 34th St. bike shop. I'll have to go visit one of these days. The
other bike shop (DFC Cycles and Fitness) never even heard of recumbents. When I went in there and
asked about them, the guy showed me some recumbent stationary bikes. I had to return the next day
with my ride just to prove to the owner that they really do exist. I bought mine in Houston. The
nearest 'bent shop to Lubbock (far as I know) is either Abilene or Midland, and there may be one in
Amarillo. I have seen a couple other 'bents around Lubbock. I saw a guy on an Easy Racers on Memphis
St. once, south of 50th St. (was that you?) and there's another guy with a Haluzak Horizon. Other
than that, they're pretty rare around here.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

Jon Meinecke <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On 24 Apr 2003 21:21:50 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote:
>
> >Hello Cletus,
> >
> >I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. [...]
>
> Cletus' engine sounds pretty well tuned, actually.
>
> > [...] freindly competition [...] Too bad I'm now on the other side of Texas.
>
> Llano Estacato, -- Lubbock? I grew up there.
>
> The land of not many recumbents and few major hills. Wind, on the other hand, could make a low
> racer really attractive.
>
> The 34th street bike shop owner rides a recumbent and has a friendly shop cat.
>
> I rode a loop out to Buffalo Lake when visiting last summer and found a few hills. A dragging
> brake after a flat tire change made for a harder load on the engine. Heading east off the Caprock,
> now that would preset a number of challenging climbs.
>
> My son and I rode the western portion of the Caprock Canyons trailway a few years ago (me on a
> BikeE). Fat tires are required, but its a beautiful ride. Don't know how my Tour Easy would handle
> the loose sand part of the trail. Even with wide tires, the BikeE pulling a BOB trailer was a
> challenge and the weeds were 'as tall as an elephant's eye' on parts of the trail.
>
> Jon Meinecke

 

[Bill Anton]

No, there aren't too many hills in Lubbock. On MLK Blvd., however, there's a big bridge over the RR
tracks followed by a nice ride in-n-out of Yellow House Canyon. The Hotter-N-Hell ride sounds mighty
tempting... unfortunately, my days of doing organized and fundraiser rides are pretty much over. My
rides nowadays are almost all during the week. It's too hard to get a substitute priest for my
weekend Masses. We just have a few retired priests that fill in for annual vacations. I would have
to plan far in advance and schedule the ride as part of the vacation. There is a Lubbock Bicycle
Club, but I have yet to join it, since they generally ride on weekends. Still, I might be abe to
swing an occasional Saturday morning ride 'long as I'm back by early afternoon.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Hello Cletus,
> >
> > I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. Why else
> > would an R-40 beat a lighter, higher BB P-38 up a hill? Since you're the same rider on both
> > bikes, perhaps the differences in cycle design are dwarfed by the conditioning of the rider and
> > the routine of commuting. I've found that I often don't use 100% of my muscles during a long
> > ride, settling for a 16 MPH average or so...then within 5 miles of the house I find I still have
> > enough left for a few 25 MPH windsprints (second-wind-sprints?). It just seems to me that we
> > tend to settle into a comfortable level of exertion for long rides. Also, in the flat Houston
> > terrain you're not likely to pay that 6 pound weight penalty. Perhaps if you and a friend (of
> > similar size and conditioning) squared-off for some freindly competition, switching mounts every
> > so often, you'd find out for real which bike is faster. Too bad I'm now on the other side of
> > Texas.
> >
> > BTW, yes I'm still single, and yes my R-40 "sleeps" next to my bed. Too much dust in the garage.
>
> Fr. Bill, Maybe you and your R-40 caught me on an off day. We only had one chance to square off
> and I believe that was before I attempted MoM.
>
> Maybe we need a rematch. Are there any hills in Lubbock? Any chance of us meeting up at the
> Hotter'N Hell?

 

[Don]

Bill, are you into audio at all? I need you to ride over to Llano Designs on 84th Ave and ask Randy
when the heck my amplifier is going to be finished. He will get a big kick over me sending "muscle".
Small world. Don

[email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> No, there aren't too many hills in Lubbock. > Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX
>

 

[Freewheeling]

Hi Cletus:

Speaking of MoM, are you planning to come up to Christiansburg this year? I haven't ridden yet,
since last October. My foot still's a little tender from the fracture I had, so may not do something
as challenging as MoM that early in the season. But if there are a truckload of recumbent guys
coming, I might at least do the first 60 miles, which aren't too bad.

What about this Atkins diet? Does it make you clumsy, do you think?

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > Hello Cletus,
> >
> > I'm thinkin' your dilemma may have more to do with the "engine" than the transmission. Why else
> > would an R-40 beat a lighter, higher BB P-38 up a hill? Since you're the same rider on both
> > bikes, perhaps the differences in cycle design are dwarfed by the conditioning of the rider and
> > the routine of commuting. I've found that I often don't use 100% of my muscles during a long
> > ride, settling for a 16 MPH average or so...then within 5 miles of the house I find I still have
> > enough left for a few 25 MPH windsprints (second-wind-sprints?). It just seems to me that we
> > tend to settle into a comfortable level of exertion for long rides. Also, in the flat Houston
> > terrain you're not likely to pay that 6 pound weight penalty. Perhaps if you and a friend (of
> > similar size and conditioning) squared-off for some freindly competition, switching mounts every
> > so often, you'd find out for real which bike is faster. Too bad I'm now on the other side of
> > Texas.
> >
> > BTW, yes I'm still single, and yes my R-40 "sleeps" next to my bed. Too much dust in the garage.
>
> Fr. Bill, Maybe you and your R-40 caught me on an off day. We only had one chance
to square off and I
> believe that was before I attempted MoM.
>
> Maybe we need a rematch. Are there any hills in Lubbock? Any chance of us
meeting up at the
> Hotter'N Hell?
>
> --
>
> Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
> - Bellaire, TX USA -

 

[Cletus D . Lee]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Hi Cletus:
>
> Speaking of MoM, are you planning to come up to Christiansburg this year? I haven't ridden yet,
> since last October. My foot still's a little tender from the fracture I had, so may not do
> something as challenging as MoM that early in the season. But if there are a truckload of
> recumbent guys coming, I might at least do the first 60 miles, which aren't too bad.

I have a conflict this year. So I will have to skip the 2003 MoM.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

 

[Bill Anton]

Sorry Don. Since ordination, the only kind of "wet work" I do is Baptism. But I hear there's nice
Italian-American family in New Jersey that may be of assistance. Yeah, that's it. Tony says he could
send Silvio and Furio--two good church-going Catholic boys--to have a pleasant discussion with Randy
in a dark alley of their choosing.

Sure wish Lubbock had more to offer in the way of bike shops that carry recumbents. Maybe when I
retire I'll open up a *REAL* bike shop with a good selection of quality recumbents, MTBs and DF road
bikes. Blessings would be free, of course, and might even qualify me as a value-added reseller.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

[email protected] (Don) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill, are you into audio at all? I need you to ride over to Llano Designs on 84th Ave and ask
> Randy when the heck my amplifier is going to be finished. He will get a big kick over me sending
> "muscle". Small world. Don
>
>
> [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > No, there aren't too many hills in Lubbock. > Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX
> >
> >

 

[Jon Meinecke]

On 25 Apr 2003 14:28:16 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote:

> two riders of similar build and conditioning, going head-to-head, and switching bikes every so
> often to correct for one rider who may be a little stronger than the other.

Sounds reasonable,-- but I wouldn't personally know much about 'fast' biking (yet, if ever). %^)

I hear, 'It's not about the bike,' but when my riding partner is on his light-weight road bike
instead of his hybrid/cross bike, he's noticeable faster. I'd love to have a chance to ride a really
light-weight recumbent, and suspect I might be 'faster' on such a bike. But I fully realize I can
get a lot more speed out of my current 'ride' with more attention to the engine conditioning. And
conditioning the engine is one reason I ride.

>I am surprised to learn about that 34th St. bike shop. I'll have to go visit one of these days.

The owner said he rides the Easter Hill Country tour. I think he has a P-38.

>[Lubbock LBS] never even heard of recumbents.

This sort of response is not limited to Lubbock. I get something similar here in Denton LBS's. One
says they don't get much call for recumbents and maintain they can't afford to stock bikes that
don't sell quickly. I still shop both shops for 'consumables' and tools and hope they can continue
to operate and broaden their product lines.

> I saw a guy on an Easy Racers on Memphis St. once, south of 50th St. (was that you?)

Possibly. I rode that route several times last July on my red Tour Easy with Zzipper fairing. In
prior summers you might have seen me on my purple BikeE.

South Plains terrain is an acquired taste. Not as mythically flat as some people imagine, but FM
roads are much more straight and flat than in many other parts of Texas. Lots of farm/ranch land.
Wide open skies. Low humidity.

Perfect place probably for those low racer speed demons to have a go at beating up upright pace
lines, particularly on a windy spring weekend. The Playa lakes can fill up quickly with run-off
rain, so maybe the recumbent-based cold-water rescue team should be on alert. %^)

Jon Meinecke

 

[Bill Anton]

> Possibly. I rode that route several times last July on my red Tour Easy with Zzipper fairing.

Well I'll be... if that's true, it marks the second time I've actually met someone from A.R.B.R
OUTSIDE of cyberspace. Too bad you're in Denton now. Are Denton drivers as fast and crazy as they
seem on I-35?

As for low racers... I don't think they'd do too well in the Lubbock area. Fast and fun on a closed
track or restricted rail trail, but I wouldn't own one for real world roads--not around here anyway.
If grandmaw with her tri-focals doesn't run you off the road (or over!) in her Suburban, then Farmer
Frank might run over you with the disc attachment on his John Deere. Drivers just aren't going to
see you in a low-racer. (They already don't see 600 pound Harleys.) The farm-to-market roads around
here have drainage dips (usually dry) just deep enough to conceal a low-racer entirely. (Well,
Bubba, the road LOOKS clear up ahead, just go ahead and pass.) Of course, lots of tall bright flags
and blinkie lights can help with visibility, but then what about dogs? Most dogs, granted, are not
out for a pound of flesh, they're just doing their "duty" and many like to race alongside. But at
least I get to look Marmaduke in the eye. On a low racer you'd be looking at his belly hairs and
he'd be drooling on you--not a pleasant situation, especially when you meet the rare dog that really
is vicious. Then there's the situation where there IS water in that low-water crossing... I go home
with a wet tire, but the low-racer rider goes home with a wet seat and shorts.

If I ever decide to buy another, more high-performance bent, it would probably be a SWB high racer
like a Sabre, Volae Club, or maybe even a Bacchetta Strada or an HP Velotecnik.

Let me know if you happen to be in Lubbock--maybe we could get together for a ride or just for a
meal. Peace.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX

Jon Meinecke <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On 25 Apr 2003 14:28:16 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote:
>
> > two riders of similar build and conditioning, going head-to-head, and switching bikes every so
> > often to correct for one rider who may be a little stronger than the other.
>
> Sounds reasonable,-- but I wouldn't personally know much about 'fast' biking (yet, if ever). %^)
>
> I hear, 'It's not about the bike,' but when my riding partner is on his light-weight road bike
> instead of his hybrid/cross bike, he's noticeable faster. I'd love to have a chance to ride a
> really light-weight recumbent, and suspect I might be 'faster' on such a bike. But I fully realize
> I can get a lot more speed out of my current 'ride' with more attention to the engine
> conditioning. And conditioning the engine is one reason I ride.
>
> >I am surprised to learn about that 34th St. bike shop. I'll have to go visit one of these days.
>
> The owner said he rides the Easter Hill Country tour. I think he has a P-38.
>
> >[Lubbock LBS] never even heard of recumbents.
>
> This sort of response is not limited to Lubbock. I get something similar here in Denton LBS's. One
> says they don't get much call for recumbents and maintain they can't afford to stock bikes that
> don't sell quickly. I still shop both shops for 'consumables' and tools and hope they can continue
> to operate and broaden their product lines.
>
> > I saw a guy on an Easy Racers on Memphis St. once, south of 50th St. (was that you?)
>
> Possibly. I rode that route several times last July on my red Tour Easy with Zzipper fairing. In
> prior summers you might have seen me on my purple BikeE.
>
> South Plains terrain is an acquired taste. Not as mythically flat as some people imagine, but FM
> roads are much more straight and flat than in many other parts of Texas. Lots of farm/ranch land.
> Wide open skies. Low humidity.
>
> Perfect place probably for those low racer speed demons to have a go at beating up upright pace
> lines, particularly on a windy spring weekend. The Playa lakes can fill up quickly with run-off
> rain, so maybe the recumbent-based cold-water rescue team should be on alert. %^)
>
> Jon Meinecke

 

[Jon Meinecke]

On 28 Apr 2003 19:55:24 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote:

> Are Denton drivers as fast and crazy as they seem on I-35?

Yes and No. I encounter many more rude and aggressive drivers while in my car, particularly on my
commute to work (on I-35!) than on my bike. I try to ride friendly, but predictably taking my place
in traffic when necessary.

> Drivers just aren't going to see you in a low-racer. (They already don't see 600 pound Harleys.)

Yes. Not clear what are the incremental visibility differences, though. I've been 'not seen' in my
minivan! Sight lines and event horizon may be the main concern for low-bike riders. I count on
seeing (hearing) more than being seen.

The reference to low racers was a "troll" or "homage" to the other "Grudge Match" thread. %^) They
want to 'prove' which bikes are faster (recumbents or uprights). A place windy and lacking major
topographic relief might be just right for them.

>If I ever decide to buy another, more high-performance bent, it would probably be a SWB high racer
>like a Sabre, Volae Club, or maybe even a Bacchetta Strada or an HP Velotecnik.

I'd love to have an opportunity to test ride all of those and quasi-low racers and low racers, even
if just to see how they ride. Maybe a vacation to the Netherlands, Stevens Point, WI and/or some
other recumbent mecca is in order.

>Let me know if you happen to be in Lubbock--maybe we could get together for a ride or just for a
>meal. Peace.

LIkewise. There are some nice rural rides around Denton and even a few challenging hills.

Jon Meinecke