Grudge Match Time: Recumbent vs DF

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by B. Sanders, Apr 9, 2003.

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  1. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I know...

    It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match Series. That ought to ignite some
    interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"? Bring it on. No holds barred. This
    is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

    Think we could get some ESPN coverage?

    Barry
     
    Tags:


  2. Buck

    Buck Guest

    "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    > isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I
    know...
    >
    > It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match Series. That ought to ignite
    > some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"? Bring it on. No holds
    > barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.
    >
    > Think we could get some ESPN coverage?
    >
    > Barry

    Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
    with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
    traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with typical
    urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

    There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same vehicle
    must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

    -Buck
     
  3. X games, watch out, and you thought cool was jumping ramps and flipping over?

    Ed Gin

    Buck wrote:

    > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    > > isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I
    > know...
    > >
    > > It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match Series. That ought to ignite
    > > some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"? Bring it on. No holds
    > > barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.
    > >
    > > Think we could get some ESPN coverage?
    > >
    > > Barry
    >
    > Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
    > with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
    > traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
    > typical urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.
    >
    > There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same
    > vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).
    >
    > -Buck
     
  4. Gary German

    Gary German Guest

    "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    > > isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I
    > know...
    > >
    > > It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match
    Series.
    > > That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
    > > Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.
    > >
    > > Think we could get some ESPN coverage?
    > >
    > > Barry
    >
    > Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
    > with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
    > traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
    typical
    > urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.
    >
    > There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around"
    class
    > where the same vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).
    >
    > -Buck
    >

    Don't forget the track-stand event.

    GG
     
  5. Chris Broome

    Chris Broome Guest

    If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

    June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

    Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

    -- Chris Broome HPVA
    *******
     
  6. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Chris Broome" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
    >
    > June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
    >
    > Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

    Heh.

    -B
     
  7. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    > > isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I
    > know...
    > >
    > > It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match
    Series.
    > > That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
    > > Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

    > Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races.

    The question being asked is: "Which is the fastest bike, recumbent or upright?" All races will be
    oriented strictly toward that goal, and only that goal: pure speed, flat out. We could have a 10k
    time trial, a 100k race (yes, with hills) and a maximum speed event using radar. Maybe we could have
    an endurance race, too - say, 500k?

    We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been made. Let's settle it. You
    fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use fairings and
    tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an annual event, to
    allow each faction to engineer a winning bike.

    When and where should we hold these events? Invitational or open?

    -Barry
     
  8. Archer

    Archer Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
    >
    > June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
    >
    > Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

    Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

    --
    David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
    it's morning".

    Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
     
  9. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "archer" <[email protected]_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
    > >
    > > June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
    > >
    > > Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.
    >
    > Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

    Do you need those features in order to go fast?

    B
     
  10. Archer

    Archer Guest

    In article <Nd%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > "archer" <[email protected]_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > > If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
    > > >
    > > > June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
    > > >
    > > > Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.
    > >
    > > Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?
    >
    > Do you need those features in order to go fast?

    Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
    over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
    here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads (though some
    claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk wheels, bladed
    frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races over a broader
    range of terrain.

    --
    David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
    it's morning".

    Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
     
  11. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "archer" <[email protected]_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In article <Nd%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >
    > > "archer" <[email protected]_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...
    > > > > If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
    > > > >
    > > > > June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
    > > > >
    > > > > Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.
    > > >
    > > > Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?
    > >
    > > Do you need those features in order to go fast?
    >
    > Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
    > over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
    > here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads

    Yes, they are. That's exactly what we're trying to settle.

    > (though some claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk
    > wheels, bladed frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races
    > over a broader range of terrain.

    Demonstrating the "places people ride" is not germane to the goal. I ride an upright bike (slowly)
    on muddy, nasty terrain, jumping curbs, etc; but this is about speed. What bike should I ride to go
    *really* fast? When the question is asked: "Is an upright bike faster than a recumbent?" we will
    know the answer.

    Knowing with certainty which type of bike is fastest will definitely help cyclists all over the
    world to make the correct choice if speed is their goal. Conversely, it will help retailers to know
    which bikes to stock. This race series is designed with that in mind: To inform the public about
    cycling technology.

    The surfaces will need to be smoothly paved roads and tracks (for safety), with terrain that is
    conducive to very high speeds. That rules out steep climbs; but not downhills. The most fair
    comparison would be on relatively flat or gently rolling terrain, since recumbents have a distinct
    advantage going downhill. Rain is dangerous for high-speed events, so rainy conditions are out.
    Curvy roads would be fine; but again, safety is a factor. This doesn't need to be dangerous racing,
    not should it be.

    To minimize wind effects - which are a disadvantage for uprights - perhaps the races should be held
    on enclosed tracks only. That way, nobody can cry foul about the weather, road conditions, etc. We
    want a fair race, a safe race and a fast race. Grueling climbs only prove which *rider* is
    strongest. We're trying to sort out which *bike* is capable of being ridden the fastest in optimal
    conditions. Is the bike irrelevant? That's what we're going to find out.

    -Barry
     
  12. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
    > > isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I
    > know...
    > >
    > > It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match
    Series.
    > > That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
    > > Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.
    > >
    > > Think we could get some ESPN coverage?
    > >
    > > Barry
    >
    > Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
    > with some rollers;

    > a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated traffic section,
    > all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
    typical
    > urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

    Those are slow events, and not relevant. We're testing high-end speeds. Mountain bikes can be
    entered; but unless they're radically altered, they won't be competitive. Potholes and gravel are
    *definitely* out. You must be kidding.

    > There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around"
    class
    > where the same vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

    Why? We're testing for speed, with intent to see which type of *bike* is the fastest of all. Tire
    changing is definitely irrelevant. You can organize an "all around commuter/touring/urban assault
    bike grudge match" on your own time.

    -Barry
     
  13. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Ed Gin & Shirleen Kajiwara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > X games, watch out, and you thought cool was jumping ramps and flipping over?

    Ed got his race on. Wanna host the first race series in IL? I'll bet the WISIL folks would be glad
    to lend hand.

    -Barry
     
  14. B. Sanders <[email protected]> wrote:
    > We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been made. Let's settle it. You
    > fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use fairings and
    > tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an annual event,
    > to allow each faction to engineer a winning bike.

    A race would be entertaining but as there are many confounding factors I think a controlled
    experiment would be more useful.

    I believe that a fundamental question needs to be answered:

    Which pedaling position (e.g. hip angle, bottom bracket height) results in the greatest average
    power output over a set of specified time intervals (e.g. 10 min, 1/2 hour, 1 hour, 3 hours, etc.).
    Or, put another way, using the body as mounted on a standard diamond frame bicycle as a control,
    does average power output over a set of representative intervals change significantly as the body is
    rotated about its center of mass.

    Another interesting experiment that would be easier to perform, though less far-reaching in its
    conclusions, is to start with a couple of willing cyclists of similar ability and bicycles of equal
    weight, one upright, one recumbent, both equipped with power meters. Compare total work done to
    traverse an identical course maintaining the same average speed (i.e. finishing together). To make
    the experiment more interesting one could vary the average speed and/or the amount of total climbing
    over multiple trials. For each trial plot the average power against average speed and/or climbing.
    The point of this experiment is to see how average speed and total climbing affects a comparison
    between the two platforms and to remove the cyclists' conditioning as a factor, something that seems
    to be overlooked when making casual performance comparisons between upright and recumbent bicycles.

    --
    Bill Bushnell
     
  15. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    ...

    > To minimize wind effects - which are a disadvantage for uprights - perhaps the races should be
    > held on enclosed tracks only. That way, nobody can cry foul about the weather, road conditions,
    > etc. We want a fair race, a safe race and a fast race. Grueling climbs only prove which *rider* is
    > strongest. We're trying to sort out which *bike* is capable of being ridden the fastest in optimal
    > conditions. Is the bike irrelevant? That's what we're going to find out.

    I'm not looking for results in _only_ optimal conditions. I want to see results in multiple
    conditions: track, road (with turns), rolling hills, and hard climbs, so riders and dealers will
    know which kind of bikes are the fastest _for the conditions they and their customers ride in_.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  16. Jay

    Jay Guest

    > Don't forget the track-stand event.

    I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.
     
  17. Jay

    Jay Guest

    > Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
    > over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
    > here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads (though some
    > claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk wheels, bladed
    > frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races over a broader
    > range of terrain.

    Or compare day to day usefulness of bents vs diamond frame in more "real life situations".

    This afternoon I carried all at one time on the bent (no trailer):
    - 14 -20 lb wooden cupboard doors
    - two welding helmets
    - coveralls
    - welding equipment (small accessories)
    - an 8 person tent
    - Three sets of 14 ft spare poles
    - a spare tent fly
    - spare clothes (winter cycling)
    - bike tools, pump, etc
     
  18. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Jay wrote:
    >
    > > Don't forget the track-stand event.
    >
    > I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.

    Recumbent trikes are great for outdoor viewing events such as fireworks and air shows. Ride to the
    event, and have the most comfortable seat while you are there.

    I am thinking about adding a headrest and pillow to my Dragonflyer trike so I can pull over and take
    a nap while riding. ;)

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  19. "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message news:
    > Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
    > with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
    > traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
    > typical urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.
    >
    > There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same
    > vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).
    >
    > -Buck

    That sounds like a lot of racing that favors regular traditional bikes. How about some that favor
    bents then. Both riders run head on into each other to see who sustains less injury. How many times
    can you clip in and fall over without getting too many bruises and give up. Which vehicle can carry
    more objects like: lawnmower, car wheels, flourescent light bulbs, full sheet of plywood,bicycle and
    other people. Which can climb and descend the steepest hill.How about a race around in an ice
    skating rink without studded tires. Cold weather race at minus 20F and hot weather race at 100F. Who
    can best evade a pack of mean dogs. Which bike is more bulletproof. Which has best theft deterrence.
    Which one is easier to see at night. Which one can pass thru the smallest opening between two cars
    both parked and moving. Shortest stopping distance. Now thats a show I would watch.
     
  20. Jay

    Jay Guest

    >>> Don't forget the track-stand event.

    >> Jay wrote: I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.

    >Tom Sherman at [email protected] wrote: Recumbent trikes are great for outdoor viewing events
    >such as fireworks and air shows. Ride to the event, and have the most comfortable seat while you
    >are there. I am thinking about adding a headrest and pillow to my Dragonflyer trike so I can pull
    >over and take a nap while riding. ;)

    Seriously I do just that. I have attended outdoor concerts, fireworks, BBQ's and always have a
    custom made seat. The only concession I make is to remove the flag poles so as to not obstruct views
    and to park behind any people in lower seating (blankets, etc). No need to lock up and all of my
    belongings are in the panniers.

    One slight negative is that at such events I literally get about 20 or more people an hour asking
    questions and wanting to ride it. For one guy who was oversensitive and wanting to date me- he was
    jealous of all the men asking questions and wanted me to leave it at home. Since it is my main
    transport- I dumped the guy - not the bike.

    I think I have found some value for trikes for my needs. I have three tadpole trikes, a delta and a
    LWB and a SWB.

    Recumbents are slower than diamond frames. I get so many people stopping me and asking questions
    that it takes longer to get to any event.
     
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